Death Rattles and the Loophole of Book 5

[Dracnor]

Love that theory too. Dalinar losing would be an awesome end to the first 5 books of stormlight. Storms, I wish that Dalinar will loose !

3 minutes ago, Bliev said:

And Dalinar would not be able to kill him, setting himself up for an accidental death or a death from old age, knowing that every day he creeps closer to being a slave to Odium's will.

On that point... I fear that Jasnah or Adolin would be more than willing to kill the child before Dalinar dies. Jasnah for cost/gain reasons, Adolin to save his father. (Kill, or plan an unfortunate deadly accident)

[+Bliev]

1 minute ago, Dracnor said:

On that point... I fear that Jasnah or Adolin would be more than willing to kill the child before Dalinar dies. Jasnah for cost/gain reasons, Adolin to save his father. (Kill, or plan an unfortunate deadly accident)

Ah, but that's the catch. They aren't the "champion" so it doesn't count, right? 

Perhaps the rules aren't entirely clear to me, but I think it's just champion v champion, and that's the end of it. But a draw? Perhaps a draw...what happens if they *both* refuse to kill each other? The continuation of the current status quo?

[StormingTexan]

35 minutes ago, Bliev said:

Ah, but that's the catch. They aren't the "champion" so it doesn't count, right? 

Perhaps the rules aren't entirely clear to me, but I think it's just champion v champion, and that's the end of it. But a draw? Perhaps a draw...what happens if they *both* refuse to kill each other? The continuation of the current status quo?

I see a draw as a win for Odium at least when Rayse was around. It is weird now that we have TOdium but Rayse realized he screwed up with the battle of champions when Dalinar would not become his champion. Of course the stakes have been drastically reduced but would ending in a draw nullify the agreement? If so Odium gets out of the stipulation he has to remain in the Rosharian system and is done with the battle of champions he now does not want. Of course this all makes more sense for Rayse no idea about TOdium. That is all assuming it can even end in a draw which I am not entirely sure it can. 

[jamskinner]

On 11/21/2020 at 10:19 AM, lightweaver spy said:

I like this theory - I think indeed T-Odium will appoint a child as his champion, and Dalinar will be unable to kill them. However, I think that this will result in T-Odium still “winning”. The hint for this appears in Renarin’s vision that he showed to Dalinar:
 

 

Dalinar is not fighting someone other than Odium - he is fighting for Odium, as one of the Fused. As per Dalinar’s agreement with Odium:

Maybe dalinar is facing the wrong enemy.  Either not odium or maybe because rayse was killed.

 

 

[RazeU]

I like this theory and was thinking it myself. Gavinor certainly provides drama. A Singer child would probably be easier for Toad to use for the purpose willingly. Wasn’t there a WoB about how long the gap is between book 5 and 6? I think I remember something about 30 years... which would put Dalinar in his 80’s... a ripe time for natural causes to creep up on him if they can find a way to claim the fight lasts that long. 

[lonola]

My hot take is that, to get around the "willing" issue, he could simply do the reverse of the Baby Theory. We know Dalinar plans to stand as his own champion, and so could Taravangian, personally, no tricks, not using his powers as a Shard at all.

He could try to force Dalinar to kill an old man who refused to physically fight him, a no-win situation that goes against Dalinar's oaths and all the principles he's been arguing about with Taravangian for multiple books. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

2 hours ago, lonola said:

My hot take is that, to get around the "willing" issue, he could simply do the reverse of the Baby Theory. We know Dalinar plans to stand as his own champion, and so could Taravangian, personally, no tricks, not using his powers as a Shard at all.

He could try to force Dalinar to kill an old man who refused to physically fight him, a no-win situation that goes against Dalinar's oaths and all the principles he's been arguing about with Taravangian for multiple books. 

This makes sense for another reason: even if Dalinar kills T, T wins. Why? Because he proved his point.

The contest is ‘to the death’ but the contest itself was never specified. But T and Dalinar have a PREEXISTING contest that is still ongoing and has yet to be resolved. And they also have a preexisting agreement that if Dalinar turns out to be right everything will be over. So if T himself fights... well, a) the contest won’t be what Dalinar expects and b)win or lose, T gets a victory.

[Eris]

I'm not sure if I missed this or not but doesn't Dalinar admit in the book that the duel will most likely not be a traditional duel? As in he is unsure how the fight will happen, the rules of the battle and what it actually entails? Because if he wanted to Odium could just make it like an episode of wipeout and whoever survives the shenanigans wins? That's what I thought of when I read it. Not a stand alone sword aginast sword type of thing but a chaotic battle to the death type of thing with all these obstacles and stakes.  

[AlejandroTeodoro]

12 hours ago, RazeU said:

I like this theory and was thinking it myself. Gavinor certainly provides drama. A Singer child would probably be easier for Toad to use for the purpose willingly. Wasn’t there a WoB about how long the gap is between book 5 and 6? I think I remember something about 30 years... which would put Dalinar in his 80’s... a ripe time for natural causes to creep up on him if they can find a way to claim the fight lasts that long. 

I think they gap was big but not so much, it was 10 years if I don’t remember bad.

In anyway I think new Odium will do something to cancel this contest of champions or to overtrick whatever the result is. The contest of champions is a bad agreement for Odium even wining since he has to renounce to half Roshar and be trapped there.

Also is interesting to note that both Odiums seemed to be pretty sure about victory, Rayse because he agreed with a contest that doesn’t bring him anything special and Big T said to Hoid that any of his possible champions would win.

There is something that neither us (and Dalinar) knows about the contest.

Also I would like to know what would happen to the StormFather if Dalinar loose (-and die) will he be free?

[Golstar]

I'm not sure Brandon would end Arc 1 on such a dark and grim note as Odium winning by having Dalinar fight Gavilar. I do think Dalinar will end up losing somehow - but I suspect there will be some kind of high note to the end of book 5.
 

Quote

“The more important part is the enemy. He makes up the bulk of this image. A window of yellow-white light breaking into smaller and smaller pieces, into infinity.”
”He is like the sun, Father. He controls and dominates everything — and although your figure raises a sword high, it’s facing the wrong direction.”

Perhaps "yellow-white light breaking into smaller and smaller pieces" refers to Odium splintering? And the wrong direction is a misdirection, as it indicates Dalinar somehow banishing Odium away from Roshar?

Maybe I'm too optimistic, but I just don't see Book 5 leaving us with a bittersweet or even depressing finale to the first arc of this epic.

[LiftIRL]

I always thought that the deathratle with a man standing over a collapsing city is about the last (i think? cant remember the order) of dalinar's bondsmith visions- the one with kholinar falling apart

[Mason Wheeler]

17 hours ago, RazeU said:

I like this theory and was thinking it myself. Gavinor certainly provides drama. A Singer child would probably be easier for Toad to use for the purpose willingly. Wasn’t there a WoB about how long the gap is between book 5 and 6? I think I remember something about 30 years... which would put Dalinar in his 80’s... a ripe time for natural causes to creep up on him if they can find a way to claim the fight lasts that long. 

One problem with the "refuse to fight and then Dalinar dies of old age" theory is that the terms specify one other thing: the duel must occur on top of the tower of Urithiru.

If Dalinar refuses to fight and tries to go on with his life, I'm pretty sure that it could be argued that leaving the top of the tower counts as a forefeit.

[Cheat Commando]

7 hours ago, Mason Wheeler said:

One problem with the "refuse to fight and then Dalinar dies of old age" theory is that the terms specify one other thing: the duel must occur on top of the tower of Urithiru.

If Dalinar refuses to fight and tries to go on with his life, I'm pretty sure that it could be argued that leaving the top of the tower counts as a forefeit.

I agree with this. Before Dalinar and Rayse solidified their deal, Rayse mentioned that if either side forfeited, then the other side would immediately have complete and utter control over the forfeited side, able to do anything they wanted. I predict that Todium will use these 10 days to groom Gavinor and convince him to hate Dalinar. On the day of the contest, Dalinar will refuse to kill Gavinor, voiding the contract, and releasing TOdium from his bondage. To me this matches up perfectly with the first two Death Rattles the OP listed.

The rest of the book will be the fallout, with a small hint of hope at the end.