Death Rattles and the Loophole of Book 5

[DracostarA]

We have a tonne of Death Rattles from the Epigraphs of Way of Kings, and a lot of them have come to pass already. Some of them however, have not, and I suspect most of them will occur in Book 5, while maybe one or two are saved for Book 10.

Quote

 

I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw. 

Quote

So the night will reign, for the choice of honor is life... 

I think these two relate to the contest of champions proposed. My theory is that Taravangian forces a child to 'willingly' be his champion and forces a forfeit or draw from Dalinar, as it is not honourable to murder a child no matter the circumstance. I think this is the loophole that Taravangian has seen.

I think this Death Rattle links to that as well.

Quote

Light grows so distant. The storm never stops. I am broken, and all around me have died. I weep for the end of all things. He has won. Oh, he has beaten us. 

We also have a few Death Rattles we still haven't seen yet.

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The day was ours, but they took it. Stormfather! You cannot have it. The day is ours. They come, rasping, and the lights fail. Oh, Stormfather! 

Quote

 

A man stood on a cliffside and watched his homeland fall into dust. The waters surged beneath, so far beneath. And he heard a child crying. They were his own tears. 

The second one here I had assumed before to be Taravangian watching Kharbranth fall, but now it's unlikely, or alternatively it could still be him depending on how Book 5 goes. It could also be someone else but I have no idea whom, I personally feel this could be one reserved for the second half of the series.

There are a few Death Rattles related to the Unmade which we haven't seen yet.

Quote

He watches! The Black piper in the night. He holds us in his palm... playing a tune that no man can hear! 

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Let me no longer hurt! Let me no longer weep! Dai-gonarthis! The Black Fisher holds my sorrow and consumes it! 

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Re-Shephir, the Midnight Mother, giving birth to abominations with her essence so dark, so terrible, so consuming. She is here! She watches me die! 

I don't know what part these play, but I do think at least one of the Unmade has some influence on Ishar's madness, as it seems very different from Nale, Jezrien, Kalak, Shallash and Taln and how their madness has been expressed so far.

 

[18th Shard]

Terrible theory here: what if that child is Gavinor? Taravangian picks Elhokar's son as his champion, knowing Dalinar won't kill him. 

[Catladyman]

This theory about the loophole gives me SO MUCH anxiety because I just can't think of a good way out of it. My only hope of it not happening, is that the champion must be willing and Connected to Odium. I don't think a Rosharan human's innate Connection to Odium would be enough, hence the way Odium spent so much time grooming Dalinar (& now Moash?). The fact that an infant can't willingly become the Champion gives me hope. Gavinor, though, is definitely old and verbal enough to agree. Especially if the person asking is  a kindly old man. Or if T looks like Elhokar when he appears to Gav... 

[Erklitt]

17 hours ago, DracostarA said:

 

Quote

 

I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw. 

I think these two relate to the contest of champions proposed. My theory is that Taravangian forces a child to 'willingly' be his champion and forces a forfeit or draw from Dalinar, as it is not honourable to murder a child no matter the circumstance. I think this is the loophole that Taravangian has seen.

Brilliant theory! That particular death rattle always made me think: 'How can this possibly happen?!' But this way it suddenly makes so much sense.

 

2 hours ago, Catladyman said:

This theory about the loophole gives me SO MUCH anxiety because I just can't think of a good way out of it.

I don't see that good way either, but if this theory is true, there will be one.  I don't see Brandon ending the first half of SA with either Dalinar killing a child or becoming Odiums Fused servant.  And as such a scene is pretty sure to occur towards the end and to be resolved within a few chapters (keeping anxiety short), I would actually like to see what this good way out might be! 

[magnum3672]

Seeing the black piper pop up in a death rattle makes it seem related to Hoid/Wit.

 

 

[ftl]

6 hours ago, Erklitt said:

Brilliant theory! That particular death rattle always made me think: 'How can this possibly happen?!' But this way it suddenly makes so much sense.

 

I don't see that good way either, but if this theory is true, there will be one.  I don't see Brandon ending the first half of SA with either Dalinar killing a child or becoming Odiums Fused servant.  And as such a scene is pretty sure to occur towards the end and to be resolved within a few chapters (keeping anxiety short), I would actually like to see what this good way out might be! 

One way out is a draw. Dalinar does not kill the child. The child does not kill Dalinar.

This possibility was not accounted for in the contract at all. It’s also the “third way” that TOdium wants, since he’s not happy with either the win or loss conditions of the challenge.

[+Czernobog]

Odium couldn't force either Dalinar or Kaladin to become his champion. He had to wear them down to the point where he thought they would choose to become a champion, with Intent. Would a suckling child possess the requisite volition to "choose" anything approaching such consequence?

[+honorblades]

I like this theory - I think indeed T-Odium will appoint a child as his champion, and Dalinar will be unable to kill them. However, I think that this will result in T-Odium still “winning”. The hint for this appears in Renarin’s vision that he showed to Dalinar:
 

Quote

“I see you in this vision,” Renarin said to his father. “You’re in a lot of them. In this one you stand tall, formed as if from stained glass, and you wear Shardplate. Stark white Shardplate, though you are pierced by a black arrow.”
 . . .
“The more important part is the enemy. He makes up the bulk of this image. A window of yellow-white light breaking into smaller and smaller pieces, into infinity.”
”He is like the sun, Father. He controls and dominates everything — and although your figure raises a sword high, it’s facing the wrong direction.”

 

Dalinar is not fighting someone other than Odium - he is fighting for Odium, as one of the Fused. As per Dalinar’s agreement with Odium:

 

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“My life? Odium, I intend to be my own champion. I’ll have died if you win.”
”Yes,” Odium said, eyes shining golden. “You will have. And you will give your soul to me. You, Dalinar, will join the Fused. You will become my immortal, and will personally serve me. Bound by your oaths. You will be the one I send to the stars to serve my interests in the cosmere.”

 

Edited November 22, 2020 by lightweaver spy

[Blacksmithki]

Well one problem i have with this is that Dalinar might well just not be the champion in the end.

After all, if you are trying to find your greatest warrior, sure Dalinar is a good choice, but who could be better then Taln? And he'd have far far less trouble killing Gavinor or really any other child. He's not even bound by oaths as he is a herald.

I know Dalinar implies he should be the champion, but really, somebody has to realize that Taln, if healed, is the absolutely perfect choice. Why else mention that he's the best warrior out of all the heralds?

Also, something i just realized and am now editing this:

If neither side is willing to kill the other, that's not a tie, that's just a fight that hasn't ended yet. There's no provision for what defines a tie in a duel to the death, so unless one was created (which it hasn't been), then both sides refusing to fight just means the fight is ongoing.

Edited November 21, 2020 by Blacksmithki

[Topgoon]

I think this is a brilliant theory, especially because it essentially represents Dalinar and Taravangian's argument. If Dalinar kills an innocent child or Gavinor, than he has proven that Taravangian's methods and morality are correct. 

I was terrified and suspected something like this the moment Odium enforced the words "to the death" in his negotiations with Dalinar. The moment that happened, who the opponent is became something Odium can weaponize as he can hostage a life. 

[Mason Wheeler]

22 hours ago, Blacksmithki said:

Well one problem i have with this is that Dalinar might well just not be the champion in the end.

After all, if you are trying to find your greatest warrior, sure Dalinar is a good choice, but who could be better then Taln? And he'd have far far less trouble killing Gavinor or really any other child. He's not even bound by oaths as he is a herald.

I know Dalinar implies he should be the champion, but really, somebody has to realize that Taln, if healed, is the absolutely perfect choice. Why else mention that he's the best warrior out of all the heralds?

Now he just needs some way to rouse the Herald from his unresponsive (catatalnic?) state.  Therapist!Kaladin to the rescue!

[Hayama]

22 hours ago, Blacksmithki said:

Well one problem i have with this is that Dalinar might well just not be the champion in the end.

After all, if you are trying to find your greatest warrior, sure Dalinar is a good choice, but who could be better then Taln? And he'd have far far less trouble killing Gavinor or really any other child. He's not even bound by oaths as he is a herald.

I know Dalinar implies he should be the champion, but really, somebody has to realize that Taln, if healed, is the absolutely perfect choice. Why else mention that he's the best warrior out of all the heralds?

Also, something i just realized and am now editing this:

If neither side is willing to kill the other, that's not a tie, that's just a fight that hasn't ended yet. There's no provision for what defines a tie in a duel to the death, so unless one was created (which it hasn't been), then both sides refusing to fight just means the fight is ongoing.

I do agree that Dalinar being the Champion is a bit of misdirection. I did pay special attention to the wording of the final agreement. Although Dalinar says he'll be his own champion, the agreement just stipulates that they both will appoint a champion. He can definitely still appoint someone else. Taln would be interesting. Can Dalinar, perhaps with Navani's help, use his powers of Connection to heal Taln's "madness"? I actually am not convinced that Taln is simply mad - remember Taln breaking is not what precipitated the Return, if I'm not mistaken. The way it happened might be what stuck him in his loop.

I also agree about it not being a tie if no one dies. There are no stipulations on when the fight ends, other than a death. It could theoretically last for years. The only way I could see a draw actually happening is mutual destruction. A limbo state with the fight ongoing could be the loophole T.Odium sees, I suppose. He'd still be bound to Roshar but not to either the win or lose scenarios, and wouldn't have to cease hostilities. I don't know, though, it seems anticlimactic to me.

[+Oltux72]

23 hours ago, Blacksmithki said:

Well one problem i have with this is that Dalinar might well just not be the champion in the end.

He is in his 50ies. Just wait a few decades.

23 hours ago, Blacksmithki said:

After all, if you are trying to find your greatest warrior, sure Dalinar is a good choice, but who could be better then Taln? And he'd have far far less trouble killing Gavinor or really any other child. He's not even bound by oaths as he is a herald.

Nakku the Judge, a.k.a. Nale
He is also a Herald and also a Knight Radiant of the fifth oath. He has Plate. The duell is agreed upon by both government, so he'd fight according to a treaty. Hence killing any opponent is the law. And he still considers himself a Knight Radiant. He is the best humanoid fighter on Roshar..

23 hours ago, Blacksmithki said:

If neither side is willing to kill the other, that's not a tie, that's just a fight that hasn't ended yet. There's no provision for what defines a tie in a duel to the death, so unless one was created (which it hasn't been), then both sides refusing to fight just means the fight is ongoing.

It is a duell to the death. They agreed on that. The survivor wins. Hence the clearest way to a draw is a suicidal kill.

[Mason Wheeler]

3 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

It is a duell to the death. They agreed on that. The survivor wins. Hence the clearest way to a draw is a suicidal kill.

And who does Team Honor have who's known as a great fighter with a history of winning against impossible odds but dying in the process?

[+Oltux72]

5 minutes ago, Mason Wheeler said:

And who does Team Honor have who's known as a great fighter with a history of winning against impossible odds but dying in the process?

You would be refering to Talenelat'Elin?

At the risk of repeating myself: The best candidate would be Nalan'Elin

[Mason Wheeler]

2 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

You would be refering to Talenelat'Elin?

At the risk of repeating myself: The best candidate would be Nalan'Elin

Except for the minor problem of him fighting for the enemy...

[+Oltux72]

22 minutes ago, Mason Wheeler said:

Except for the minor problem of him fighting for the enemy...

Slander. He isn't. He is fighting for justice as he is seeing it. Yet if the duell is official and both governments agreed to it, it is legal and the law of the land. Of course he would be proud to continue a noble tradition.

[Sprendiferous]

On 11/19/2020 at 6:20 PM, DracostarA said:

We have a tonne of Death Rattles from the Epigraphs of Way of Kings, and a lot of them have come to pass already. Some of them however, have not, and I suspect most of them will occur in Book 5, while maybe one or two are saved for Book 10.

I think these two relate to the contest of champions proposed. My theory is that Taravangian forces a child to 'willingly' be his champion and forces a forfeit or draw from Dalinar, as it is not honourable to murder a child no matter the circumstance. I think this is the loophole that Taravangian has seen.

I think this Death Rattle links to that as well.

We also have a few Death Rattles we still haven't seen yet.

The second one here I had assumed before to be Taravangian watching Kharbranth fall, but now it's unlikely, or alternatively it could still be him depending on how Book 5 goes. It could also be someone else but I have no idea whom, I personally feel this could be one reserved for the second half of the series.

There are a few Death Rattles related to the Unmade which we haven't seen yet.

I don't know what part these play, but I do think at least one of the Unmade has some influence on Ishar's madness, as it seems very different from Nale, Jezrien, Kalak, Shallash and Taln and how their madness has been expressed so far.

 

The Champions have to be willing. It explicitly states a "Willing Champion" so I believe whoever it is would have to legitimately wish to participate.

[orc]

20 minutes ago, Sprendiferous said:

The Champions have to be willing. It explicitly states a "Willing Champion" so I believe whoever it is would have to legitimately wish to participate.

I mean, it took everything for Dalinar and Kaladin to reject Odium's offer. Two of the most stubborn people on the planet.

We saw how eager Gavinor was to get vengeance against Moash for killing his father. With a little wordplay, and some nightmares, and Odium should be able to convince a sheltered child to fight for him, in exchange for giving him his vengeance, and perhaps even Alethkar itself. And nobody would know, because I doubt Gavinor would understand that this man in his dreams is actually Odium. And Taravagian would have no qualms with torturing a child if it meant winning everything.

The more I read it, the more it makes sense. And while I know Dalinar wouldn't be able to kill him, he really should, and then simply exile himself. Letting himself lose to this ploy, when he saw that there were limits for Nohadon to the point he eventually took up the sword. Giving himself to Odium is just way too much, breaking his honor, and simply killing himself after would be a much more preferable outcome. But again, doubt he'd do that.

[Friendshipspren]

On 11/20/2020 at 8:00 PM, Catladyman said:

This theory about the loophole gives me SO MUCH anxiety because I just can't think of a good way out of it. My only hope of it not happening, is that the champion must be willing and Connected to Odium. I don't think a Rosharan human's innate Connection to Odium would be enough, hence the way Odium spent so much time grooming Dalinar (& now Moash?). The fact that an infant can't willingly become the Champion gives me hope. Gavinor, though, is definitely old and verbal enough to agree. Especially if the person asking is  a kindly old man. Or if T looks like Elhokar when he appears to Gav... 

We don't know what his mom and the Unmade did to him. He could very well have a switch within him that could be activated by Odium or an Unmade turning him into another Vyre without emotions. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

Weird thought... One potential loophole is Odium and Honor being held by the same person. This can create a draw, in the sense that you can’t fight yourself. Or it creates a new Shard, who isn’t bound to the original agreement.

[Forest Nymphomaniac]

11 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Weird thought... One potential loophole is Odium and Honor being held by the same person. This can create a draw, in the sense that you can’t fight yourself. Or it creates a new Shard, who isn’t bound to the original agreement.

I wonder if, how the rhythm of honor +  the rhythm of odium = the rhythm of war, if that would be the shar produced from such a union

[StormingTexan]

On 11/22/2020 at 11:29 PM, orc said:

We saw how eager Gavinor was to get vengeance against Moash for killing his father. With a little wordplay, and some nightmares, and Odium should be able to convince a sheltered child to fight for him, in exchange for giving him his vengeance, and perhaps even Alethkar itself. And nobody would know, because I doubt Gavinor would understand that this man in his dreams is actually Odium. And Taravagian would have no qualms with torturing a child if it meant winning everything.

This sounds interesting but Gavinor is not a suckling child if we are taking the death rattle literally. 

[AlejandroTeodoro]

On 20/11/2020 at 3:02 AM, 18th Shard said:

Terrible theory here: what if that child is Gavinor? Taravangian picks Elhokar's son as his champion, knowing Dalinar won't kill him. 

I supposed they champion should support Odium, but he could easily choose a Singer Kid and I think Dalinar will neither agree to kill him

[+Bliev]

36 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

This sounds interesting but Gavinor is not a suckling child if we are taking the death rattle literally. 

I wouldn't take it super literally, though I agree it's a problem with the rattle itself.

I like this theory because there's a reason that we see Dalinar so invested in Gavinor, bringing him to "battle" and teaching him swordplay. He could be tricked to be a willing Champion, he is young after all. And Dalinar would not be able to kill him, setting himself up for an accidental death or a death from old age, knowing that every day he creeps closer to being a slave to Odium's will. 

On the other hand, I really like the idea of an Honor/Odium shard, and the foreshadowing we get from Raboniel and Navani hints at that possibility. Oh, so much to wait for!!