Who is Sixteen? [Discussion]

[GudThymes]

Anyone have thoughts or theories for who this random Shin man in Lasting Integrity is?

Mine is Tanavast as a Cognitive Shadow.

[spitfireky]

Tanavast is described as being "a tall, muscular man with dark skin and pure white hair" (Coppermind) so it might not be him unless he chose to alter his appearance as a Cognitive Shadow. But I definitely think he has something to do with the Shards or Adonalsium in general because of the name. Sixteen is described as short, pale, and bald and speaks in a language that Shallan doesn't know, so I bet it'll be easy to find him in other books based on that description/

[GudThymes]

Just now, spitfireky said:

Tanavast is described as being "a tall, muscular man with dark skin and pure white hair

Drat. I just want Tanavast to be alive so that we have a literal reason for Kaladins "Son of Tanavast" title/nickname. Thanks for the info on Tanavast

In terms of languages Shallan doesn't know that would be a lot right? She only knows what, like 4 or 5 Rosharan ones? I agree though, I think any name that is a number less than 18 has to be related to Ado somehow.... on that note, could it be Ado themself?

[spitfireky]

4 minutes ago, GudThymes said:

In terms of languages Shallan doesn't know that would be a lot right? She only knows what, like 4 or 5 Rosharan ones? I agree though, I think any name that is a number less than 18 has to be related to Ado somehow.... on that note, could it be Ado themself?

That'd be crazy if Ado has a Cognitive Shadow that's been chilling in Shadesmar for the past 10,000+ years. I definitely think that Sixteen's gonna be relevant at some point down the line though.

[GudThymes]

4 minutes ago, spitfireky said:

That'd be crazy if Ado has a Cognitive Shadow that's been chilling in Shadesmar for the past 10,000+ years. I definitely think that Sixteen's gonna be relevant at some point down the line though.

Hahaha agreed. I feel like if Ado is still around as a CS then chilling in the Shadesmar of Roshar is the most likely place so far. 

[ThurgreatMarshall]

Is there any chance Sixteen is a Scadrian? They're big on the number over there, and the northerners tend to have the lighter skin that is described. I would say the same for the eyes, Rosharan viewpoints tend to think anyone without epicanthic folds is Shin. 

[+robardin]

44 minutes ago, Beltway2A said:

Is there any chance Sixteen is a Scadrian? They're big on the number over there, and the northerners tend to have the lighter skin that is described. I would say the same for the eyes, Rosharan viewpoints tend to think anyone without epicanthic folds is Shin. 

Well, let's list what we know about Sixteen from what is described or relayed in RoW.

They shut the doors to Lasting Integrity to outsiders about eighteen months prior to their arrival, but did not eject those non-honorspren already inside - which includes all of the seventeen humans (not including Kalak, who is a special case) that Shallan checks out initially: a group of Nalthian traders, members of a clan of Horneaters who resided full-time in Shadesmar, and this guy. Sixteen.

A male human who only came out of his home every sixteen days, with a precise regularity that amuses the honorspren.

He survived without food, didn't bathe, never empties a chamber pot, yet doesn't have a stench.

He emerged from his small, box-like building as "a furtive figure", "hunched over, face hidden in the cowl of a cloak" that then "hurried through the statue park", where he was "fiddling with some notes" when Shallan came up to him, grabbed him, and turned him around to see his face under the cloak.

He had that Shin look with a "pale, almost sickly skin and childlike eyes", "short", and "completely bald". He shouted, said something to her in a language she did not recognize, and fled back into his home.

The honorspren counted him on their inventory of seventeen humans, but did not consider Kalak one but rather "a spren", as Heralds are effectively Cognitive Shadows. So would they not consider a Returned as one as well? Zahel himself basically did.

So taking that at face value, that Sixteen is indeed a living human - is he subsisting without food or drink via some magical means, like a metalmind? A Twinborn who can compound bendalloy?

What kind of notes was he taking, and why is he in Lasting Integrity at all? Or was he reading notes instead of taking them? What would be be looking for or waiting for, in the sculpture garden of the fortress of honorspren in Rosharan Shadesmar? How long has he been there and doing this?

Or, is the regularity of sixteen days reflecting some kind of Allomantic time bubble pulse? That would explain a lot. Like, he's waiting for something to happen, and when it hasn't, he goes back into his little house and flares a cadmium "slo-time" bubble in a preset way so that when he emerges from it, it's sixteen days later? And that's why he doesn't eat, drink, or make waste. From his POV he's only been there a short while. And whatever he's waiting for, he can see from the sculpture garden, but is something he needs to cross-check with his notes (it's not something he has memorized in his head).

And a Scadrian Allomancer would certainly look Shin to Shallan.

Let's see: if he's been there for (say) 20 Rosharan months, that's 10 weeks of 5 days per month, he's been there for 1800 days. If each time he's Pulsing away 16 days, he's done at least 112 such pulses; if after each pulse, he comes out, checks for something against his notes, and goes back inside to Pulse again, with a total time of about 5 minutes per check, that's 560 minutes = over 9 hours hours of his personal time. Minimum.

That's pretty boring. I almost hope that's not what it is!

Unless what he's been waiting for is exactly what just happened, Adolin's trial, the re-opening of Lasting Integrity, and the loosening of the honorspren!

Edited November 19, 2020 by robardin

[+Oltux72]

A bald man suggests Elantrian. He also does not eat or defacate or bathe. Either a Cognitive Shadow or an Elantrian.

Shallan is a very educated woman. She may not speak Shin, but she would recognise it.

[+robardin]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

A bald man suggests Elantrian. He also does not eat or defacate or bathe. Either a Cognitive Shadow or an Elantrian.

Shallan is a very educated woman. She may not speak Shin, but she would recognise it.

The honorspren considered Kalak as a Cognitive Shadow to be essentially a spren, not a human, so probably not that.

An Elantrian might fit the bill, as we've seen Riino at the lighthouse in Oathbringer who is a confirmed Elantrian (the Hoed who led Raoden to the Shardpool that he sank into...). He looked like a Shin human to Kaladin, and may not trigger the "he's a SPREN in human form!" alarms for the honorspren.

But I believe Elantrians still need to eat? After the Hoed stuff was done with, anyway. In the short story The Hope of Elantris, the one that's in Arcanum Unbounded and takes place after Elantris, Raoden (the Elantrian) is at a dinner table with food, so one assumes he was going to eat. Unless it was just for Sarene's benefit. (Hoed didn't need to eat, but that's because they were stuck halfway between life and death.)

Edited November 19, 2020 by robardin

[+Oltux72]

18 minutes ago, robardin said:

The honorspren considered Kalak as a Cognitive Shadow to be essentially a spren, not a human, so probably not that.

Would they recognise every Cognitive Shadow? Kalak is a Herald not just your average Cognitive Shadow.

18 minutes ago, robardin said:

An Elantrian might fit the bill, as we've seen Riino at the lighthouse in Oathbringer who is a confirmed Elantrian (the Hoed who led Raoden to the Shardpool that he sank into...). He looked like a Shin human to Kaladin, and may not trigger the "he's a SPREN in human form!" alarms for the honorspren.

But I believe Elantrians still need to eat? After the Hoed stuff was done with, anyway. In the short story The Hope of Elantris, the one that's in Arcanum Unbounded and takes place after Elantris, Raoden (the Elantrian) is at a dinner table with food, so one assumes he was going to eat.

Yes. One may assume that. But the further assumption that he has to eat, as opposed to likes to eat is questionable.

18 minutes ago, robardin said:

Unless it was just for Sarene's benefit. (Hoed didn't need to eat, but that's because they were stuck halfway between life and death.)

Yes. There is, however, a disgusting further possibility. If the Ire has found a way to put Dor into a storage container, he may be - how to put this delicately - recycling on a very fundamental level.

 

2 hours ago, robardin said:

Let's see: if he's been there for (say) 20 Rosharan months, that's 10 weeks of 5 days per month, he's been there for 1800 days. If each time he's Pulsing away 16 days, he's done at least 112 such pulses; if after each pulse, he comes out, checks for something against his notes, and goes back inside to Pulse again, with a total time of about 5 minutes per check, that's 560 minutes = over 9 hours hours of his personal time. Minimum.

That's pretty boring. I almost hope that's not what it is!

Unless what he's been waiting for is exactly what just happened, Adolin's trial, the re-opening of Lasting Integrity, and the loosening of the honorspren!

That would mean him coming out in the same clothes every time and what would he need the notes for? Something that you need notes for, yet takes only 5 minutes?

[+robardin]

5 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

That would mean him coming out in the same clothes every time and what would he need the notes for? Something that you need notes for, yet takes only 5 minutes?

Yes, it'd be the same clothes every time. Remember if he's using cadmium pulses, even at that length of stay, if he's Pulsing away 16 days at a time he's "only" been doing it for about 9-10 hours. Which TBH is starting to push the window on a normal human not needing to eat, drink, or eliminate. Maybe he has a bottle of water in there with him, I dunno.

As for what does he need to use notes for - we don't know if he's taking notes, or reading them ("fiddling" is not clear). He might be on the lookout for something happening that is complex enough (or unfamiliar enough) that he needs to compare it against a written or drawn example. Whatever it is, he can check it from the sculpture garden. Or, he's taking recorded measurements or something.

It's getting a bit farfetched, I admit; but the fact that he comes out every 16 days like clockwork really feels like a time skip thing to me, and once you're skimming through time any physical needs would seem to have a huge gap to those watching from the outside.

Edited November 19, 2020 by robardin

[Kingsdaughter613]

Could also be a Kandra; they can go awhile without food.

[+robardin]

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Could also be a Kandra; they can go awhile without food.

Maybe more than a human, but not 18 months. They DO eat (and "aged meat" when possible).

[ftl]

There is the implication that in general, worldhoppers have some way to dilate time to age slower. It doesn't have to be bendalloy, it could be that.

I like the idea of it being a time-delaying sentry of some kind, though.

[Zedseayou]

14 hours ago, GudThymes said:

Drat. I just want Tanavast to be alive so that we have a literal reason for Kaladins "Son of Tanavast" title/nickname. Thanks for the info on Tanavast

In terms of languages Shallan doesn't know that would be a lot right? She only knows what, like 4 or 5 Rosharan ones? I agree though, I think any name that is a number less than 18 has to be related to Ado somehow.... on that note, could it be Ado themself?

Can you imagine if Kaladin and Lirin's disagreements stem from him not being his actual son in a divine conception plotline? It'd be so awful...

Edited November 20, 2020 by Zedseayou

[+robardin]

4 hours ago, Zedseayou said:

Can you imagine if Kaladin and Lirin's disagreements stem from him not being his actual son in a divine conception plotline? It'd be so awful...

OK, no riffs on suggestive puns involving "a splinter of Honor" please, I wouldn't want this board to go to strange new places that way.

 

[Brgst13]

Do we have a good description of Nazh?  We know he has visited Shadesmar several times, and often takes notes or reads others' notes.  I could see Khriss sending him there since a lot of interesting things are happening on Roshar right now.

[Ytsken]

17 hours ago, Brgst13 said:

Do we have a good description of Nazh?  We know he has visited Shadesmar several times, and often takes notes or reads others' notes.  I could see Khriss sending him there since a lot of interesting things are happening on Roshar right now.

"Nazh is a lanky man with a narrow, pinched face, blonde hair and blue eyes." (https://coppermind.net/wiki/Nazrilof)

So it does not appear that Sixteen is Nazsh. But thanks for making me check his decription because we do know Nazh is actually around on Roshar during this time (diving up Shallan's art, copying Bridge Four's tattoos, and studying under Navani's cartagropher), so this was a possibility.

The description doesn't match Demoux either, right?

[Brgst13]

No but he does strongly resemble Felt.

[GudThymes]

49 minutes ago, Brgst13 said:

No but he does strongly resemble Felt.

Felt was already on the expedition into Shadesmar. He was brought along by Adolin. 

[Brgst13]

Well that shoots that theory down.  The only other known wodhopper on the Coppermind list that comes close is Elrao.

[Nymeros]

No one important.

On 11/19/2020 at 1:25 PM, GudThymes said:

Mine is Tanavast as a Cognitive Shadow.

Don't we have confirmation that Tanavast's cognitive shadow fused with the Stormfather?

[Spren of Kindness]

Completely random, do not take this seriously: Sixteen is Szeth's father.

[+Child of Hodor]

1 hour ago, Spren of Kindness said:

Completely random, do not take this seriously: Sixteen is Szeth's father.

Sixteen-Son-Vallano of Shinovar wore  black on the day he checked his notes in the statue garden ...

[esotericpizza]

Is it possible that Sixteen is from First of the Sun? They have a number based naming system, but I don't know if they have worldhopping ability at this point in the timeline.