44 posts in this topic

On 11/27/2020 at 2:04 AM, Bremen said:

It struck me, what if El has no rhythms because he was originally a human? He also replaces parts of his carapace with metal when reborn, are these metalminds perhaps?

If so El might be the first Voidbringer, the one who turned the rest towards Odium's service.

We know already why he has no rhythms; he spoke up for humans.

Edited by Nymeros
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Regardless of his name: I believe El is going to be Todium's champion. At least he was before Rayse was killed. I'm not sure if Mr T would choose someone else. El was "testing" his knife to see if it would kill an immortal Fused but that could just be because he didn't have a Radiant (or a God?) around to test it on.

It seems the simple explanation that Pursuer was refering to "He Who Quiets" as the title. El is clearly someone important with his scene right near the end of the book. Why make such a big deal with both the title comment and the knife? Moash (die.die.die) is now blind and can't be cured, which also seems to be telling us something which I can't decipher, but it puts him out of the running for both that title and being the champion.

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A Fused who replaces his carapace with metal? Once he learns how to bond with Kaladin, he'll be the Fused of Steel, Kal-El, defender of mankind! 

(Who traditionally just makes up whatever new surge he needs at the time, and is almost completely unbeatable)

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A bit late to the party, but I'm doing a reread and just noticed a small connection. Sorry if it's been noted before and I am reposting this. As we know, Brandon takes care in choosing his words. On page 1204, when the Pursuer tells El that his title was given to a human, El's response is "I've heard".

If El's title was He Who Quiets, as is a proposed theory, his response of "hearing" would be a subtle nod to the fact that now that he no longer "quiets" things, he can actually hear them. I may be looking too far into it, but I believe El's choice of response was meant as one of those ironic flippant remarks that we readers don't understand as such until we learn things in later books. I guess we won't know for sure until a few years from now, but this is my headcannon for now!

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What troubles me with the "He Who Quiets" title is that it was taken from El by R-Odium for being a human sympathizer and then given to a human?

That makes little sense. And "Voice of Lights" runs to similar problems though it seems it was Raboniel who did that, so maybe? But El's beliefs and relationships with the different Odiums seems deeper than what we saw and quite important.

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Great question, so many interesting ideas here!  I'll attempt a multi-quote extravaganza to add mine.

I immediately figured it was "He Who Quiets", and I still think that... although the musings about the 10th name of the Almighty are VERY tantalizing.

On 11/20/2020 at 4:48 PM, DracostarA said:

In addition it is made clear he is a scholar, rather than an assassin like the title 'He who Quiets' implies.

I don't think the title implies an assassin, despite Moash's bloody initiation.  How many people has Moash killed?  4?  Jasnah's killed more than that.  And more to the point, Moash's new MO seems to be psychological - getting in your opponent's head, pushing them to give up WITHOUT a fight.  That's got more of a "He Who Quiets" vibe to me for sure.  Not that murder is frowned upon or anything.

On 11/20/2020 at 7:04 PM, Subvisual Haze said:

It occurs to me that El was the reawakened Fused that had Leshwi so agitated in the early chapters.  She rushed back to the city in response to a new batch of Fused awakening, but never said which one concerned her specifically.  It wasn't Raboniel like I initially thought because Leshwi acts surprised when she appears in the meeting.  El seems the likely suspect.

This had not occurred to me, and I LIKE IT.  I had been thinking it was Raboniel, but El makes more sense.  The fact that it was Leshwi who GAVE the title to Moash has me wondering whether she thought El was out of the game permanently... and this would make her consternation at the news that he has again returned much more believable.

11 hours ago, adouloumis said:

What troubles me with the "He Who Quiets" title is that it was taken from El by R-Odium for being a human sympathizer and then given to a human?

R-Odium demonstrated in Oathbringer that whatever his faults, racism isn't one of them.  He's happy to use anyone, human or singer, to accomplish his goals.  Besides, I've never gotten the impression that these titles come from Odium anyway - more likely the Nine.  Heck, Leshwi has enough authority to bestow a title on Moash, so they can't be divine.  Sure, El and Odium had a disagreement a few thousand years ago; apparently Odium not only came around to El's point of view (humans ARE useful tools), but saw fit to allow El to again return to the fight.

I also find it unlikely the "Voice of Lights" news has been widely distributed.  But as we know, Brando Sando has a long history of surprising us, so I'm not making any bets.

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19 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

I don't think the title implies an assassin, despite Moash's bloody initiation.  How many people has Moash killed?  4?  Jasnah's killed more than that.  And more to the point, Moash's new MO seems to be psychological - getting in your opponent's head, pushing them to give up WITHOUT a fight.  That's got more of a "He Who Quiets" vibe to me for sure.  Not that murder is frowned upon or anything.

Just want to weigh in on this. Being an assassin isn't about quantity, but quality of the kill. Moash has been shown to be entrusted towards important targets:

  1. Elhokar
  2. Jezrien
  3. Navani (With a Kaladin side-mission)

Sure, Jasnah has killed more random mooks, but Moash is the one that Rayse sent to do these high priority missions.

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On 1/9/2021 at 10:46 AM, DracostarA said:

Just want to weigh in on this. Being an assassin isn't about quantity, but quality of the kill. Moash has been shown to be entrusted towards important targets:

  1. Elhokar
  2. Jezrien
  3. Navani (With a Kaladin side-mission)

Sure, Jasnah has killed more random mooks, but Moash is the one that Rayse sent to do these high priority missions.

And think about what it took to make Moash fail in his mission. Kaladin swearing the fourth ideal, something many including himself didn't think he was capable of. Also, the Pursuer kinda disobeyed a direct order, and is somewhat responsible for this. That makes Kaladin the third (If shallan has her's) Radiant for team Honor with plate. Aside from that, Navani needed to become a Bondsmith and a Fused had to betray Odium for her to not die. So really, I would say very extraordinary circumstances caused Moash's failure. It will be interesting it Moash is cast aside a broken and useless. He is in the mountains somewhere. What if he is found by the Horneaters and brought to Rock.

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On 12/01/2021 at 9:23 PM, Master Silver said:

He is in the mountains somewhere. What if he is found by the Horneaters and brought to Rock.

Agreed with all your points about how capable Moash is as an assassin. But near the end it was mentioned that some Heavenly Ones found Moash and took him away, presumably safely back into Odium's territory.

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1 hour ago, DracostarA said:

Agreed with all your points about how capable Moash is as an assassin. But near the end it was mentioned that some Heavenly Ones found Moash and took him away, presumably safely back into Odium's territory.

True, forgot about that. What do you think of his blindness? I think it a direct result of his murdering Teft. Part of Moash, not his mind, but spirit is telling him that the path he is on is actually causing him more pain, and Kaladin's way, with stew, and friendship gathering around a fire is the way to deal with pain, not giving it to the void.  Until Moash recognizes that, he will be blind. Hard to see a redemption arc though..... He does have Jezrian's blade and an iron will. Other's have said it, but he could take Jezrian's place. 

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I can't say why, but my gut is with a lot of the others, in that it's "Voice of Lights".

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I wonder if El is related to the term NahEL bond.

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I don't see why He Who Quiets has to mean an assassin. Yes, Moash is given the name after he assassinates a Herald, but at that time, they may have thought it was merely entrapment (much as the GB do re: Shallan's mission). I don't think it's as important *which* name he's given but the fact that he's given *a* name at all. And the one available? One that was stripped from a human sympathizer. I'm sure Odium and the 9 found that to be a juicy little bit of ironic pettiness. I think the "they" gave your name to a human implies structure to the naming process, and Leshwi is not of high status enough to bestow such a name on her own. I'm sure she was instructed to do so if he showed his loyalty and fulfilled his mission. 

I wouldn't put it past Rayse to have done so with the express purpose of turning the knife (metaphorically lol) in "El" for his perceived treachery. 

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On 23/11/2020 at 11:23 PM, DracostarA said:

One thing to mention against the case of 'He Who Quiets'

This quote from Oathbringer indicates that Vyre MEANS 'He Who Quiets' and it does not behave as a title. So I doubt this is the correct option for El.

I see no issue, Moash is now Moash Vyre, in Rosharan Moash He Who Quiets, like Raboniel is Raboniel Lady of Wishes.

On 24/11/2020 at 0:22 AM, Rushu42 said:

And then we have He Who Quiets. This is top of my list, still. We know that there were arguments about giving Moash the title, we know that it's a very important role, and we did see El acting in precisely that role during his one scene. In fact, he killed the Pursuer in the same way that Moash had killed Jezrien. Coincidence? I think not. As for this argument:

The way El killed the Pursuer was literally the polar opposite of how Moash did, your point still stand though.

On 27/11/2020 at 3:04 AM, IndigoAjah said:

El is a very short name for a Fused/Singer.

We've seen two syllabi Singer names before and Moash could be monosyllabic depending on how you pronounce the oa so I see no reason fused couldn't rarely have monosyllabic name, also it's obviously an alias (which could indeed be a shortened version of his true name).

On 30/11/2020 at 0:35 AM, Nymeros said:

We know already why he has no rhythms; he spoke up for humans.

No? The Pursuer didn't know that and implied he'd lost them long ago. see comment right under this one

On 14/01/2021 at 3:58 PM, Master Silver said:

True, forgot about that. What do you think of his blindness? I think it a direct result of his murdering Teft. Part of Moash, not his mind, but spirit is telling him that the path he is on is actually causing him more pain, and Kaladin's way, with stew, and friendship gathering around a fire is the way to deal with pain, not giving it to the void.  Until Moash recognizes that, he will be blind. Hard to see a redemption arc though..... He does have Jezrian's blade and an iron will. Other's have said it, but he could take Jezrian's place. 

It's not totally opposite to what you say, but I think it was caused by Navani using adhesion on him

 

Anyway I had come to suggest a title not in the OP: Him with Nine Shadows.

Since Odium continued trying to recruit a champion even after Moash became Vyre, it's obvious Vyre is no the title of Odium's champion, probably more his personal assassin. El is a very unique fused, replacing his carapace with metal, I suspect he doesn't have any surge but only the powers from his metallic parts. There's also the fact that there was a fused that actually scared Leshwi that was neither Raboniel nor the Pursuer and who better to scare her than Odium's former champion?

Edited by mathiau
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On 1/18/2021 at 9:54 AM, mathiau said:

No? The Pursuer didn't know that and implied he'd lost them long ago.

Chapter 99 epigraph:
 

Quote

I had my title and my rhythms stripped from me for daring insist they should not be killed, but should instead be reconditioned. Repurposed.

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Just now, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Chapter 99 epigraph:
 

It's surprising Odium is even able to do that. I assume it means the other fused don't have access to Honour's rhythms otherwise he'd still have them

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Brandon has confirmed in the 17th Shard Interview January 23, 2021:  El's title was "He Who Quiets", and it was given to Moash.

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On 25/01/2021 at 2:06 AM, AquaRegia said:

Brandon has confirmed in the 17th Shard Interview January 23, 2021:  El's title was "He Who Quiets", and it was given to Moash.

Yep, he confirmed it here

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/460/#e14625

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

All these weird fused who've been around way too long. The guy [El] that they gave his name [Vyre] to Moash.

 

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Voice of Lights. Because Blackthorn wasn't given by a Fused but by humans, Son of Thorns is just a variant of that, Pursuer was Lezian's title, Stormblessed was also given by humans a long time ago, and Leshwi said that Vyre means He Who Quiets, not the title. Besides, they gave that a long time ago to moash. Lezian wouldn't have thought that El didn't know his title had been given away. Voice of Lights was recent, so it makes since that Lezian would mention it to El. Also, Navani and El are both tremendous thinking outside the box scholars semi-obsessed with the another race.

its more interesting to think about if the singers will start calling Kaladin the Pursuer instead of Stormblessed.

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