Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Beltway2A

El's Title

23 posts in this topic

As of Chapter 116, we've been introduced to the Epigraph writer - a Fused by the name of El. El has no rhythms and no title, though Lezian notes that "They gave your title to another, you know. A human."

Just what was that title? I was hoping we could compile a list of possibilities, even if some are significantly less likely than others.

 

Blackthorn

Son of Thorns

He Who Quiets

Stormblessed

Voice of Lights

Edited by Beltway2A
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd assumed it was He Who Quiets.

(And I'd be happy for him to take it back, with prejudice. Storm Moash!)

6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If Rabionel is Lady of Wishes, I am assuming that He Who Quiets used to be El's name. As it seems Vyre is part of that, then perhaps the Fused was named Vyrel, originally? 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
59 minutes ago, Bliev said:

If Rabionel is Lady of Wishes, I am assuming that He Who Quiets used to be El's name. As it seems Vyre is part of that, then perhaps the Fused was named Vyrel, originally? 

I got the impression that El and Raboniel where close, at least scholar colleagues. Maybe that's why Raboniel seemed to hate Moash? She does have plenty of other reasons tho...

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Necessary Eagle said:

I'd assumed it was He Who Quiets.

Re-reading the passage (and inferring that "they" refers to Odium's forces) it seems that He Who Quiets is the most likely candidate. I also went back and found the following quote from Leshwi that would indicate that the title had been previously known

Quote

Already there are comments and questions about the raising of a human to the title of He Who Quiets.

 

4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought the title thing was Lezian's title being given to Kaladin. 

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it's far more likely that the title was Voice of Lights. It's a gender neutral title and Raboniel thinks El would be interested in some of Navani's work.

In addition it is made clear he is a scholar, rather than an assassin like the title 'He who Quiets' implies.

Quote

—Ketek written by El, Fused scholar of human art forms,

 

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, DracostarA said:

I think it's far more likely that the title was Voice of Lights. It's a gender neutral title and Raboniel thinks El would be interested in some of Navani's work.

In addition it is made clear he is a scholar, rather than an assassin like the title 'He who Quiets' implies.

 

El can be both. He’s a scholar but the Pursuer is very afraid of him in a way he was not afraid of Raboniel or the Nine. Raboniel is a scholar who was kicked out of the Nine for planning a genocide.

As the Stormfather points out. Ishar was a priest, but thousands of year of war made him a buff warrior.

Although El was punished for not wanting to wipe out humanity. Which would be a point against him doing a lot of killing. 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

Although El was punished for not wanting to wipe out humanity. Which would be a point against him doing a lot of killing. 

The way he mentioned wanting to "repurpose" humans makes me think he wanted to use humans as test subjects or hemalurgy experimentation fodder.  The Pursuer waking up in a room with El at the end also means that the Pursuer's new body wasn't just claimed by the Highstorm, presumably El killed a singer to give the Pursuer a new body.  And likely has done so many times before.

It occurs to me that El was the reawakened Fused that had Leshwi so agitated in the early chapters.  She rushed back to the city in response to a new batch of Fused awakening, but never said which one concerned her specifically.  It wasn't Raboniel like I initially thought because Leshwi acts surprised when she appears in the meeting.  El seems the likely suspect.

"He who quiets" Moash got the title for murdering Jezrien.  El probably had the title for being the "facilitator" in granting Fused new bodies.

Edited by Subvisual Haze
3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

El can be both. 

Yes, right, but wasn’t the initial question which title he actually lost to a human?

My vote clearly goes to ‘Voice of Lights’ after spontaneously thinking ‘He who quiets’ (which after reconsideration does not make sense at all).

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Voice of Lights is the most likely.

However, I also have a crackpot theory, which makes slightly less sense but I think should be considered. The first thing I thought of when I read "El" was Elithanathile, "He who Transforms," the title of the Almighty. Now, I know this is wild but "He who Transforms" has the proper format to be a Fused title. In addition, if El is the same Brand of Fused as Raboniel, then he has the surge of Transformation so it could fit his abilities.

There's a few hurdles to this though, the largest of which is that we're told El's title was given to a "human." Would they call Tanavast a human?? I'm not sure. The Honorspren don't even consider Kalak to be human anymore, so from that perspective I doubt Tanavast would be considered human. But the Fused may have different standards for "human" than the spren do.

I also have no idea what this implies about Vorinism if it is true.

Edited by Lightspine
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Lightspine said:

The first thing I thought of when I read "El" was Elithanathile

I had the same immediate thought. Agree on the puzzling means by which a fused name would become bestowed upon Honor by Vorinism. Unless Vorinism follows the trait of Christianity in coopting pagan names and traditions into its own.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

“El” does mean ‘God’ in many semitic languages, Hebrew being one, natch. Originally, it was the name of a specific Canaanite  god, later it became a word that means god.

 

Incidentally, Rabon is a word for king or ruler in Hebrew. Raboniel literally means ‘my ruler is El/God’ (or ‘God is my ruler’).

5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Zea mays said:

Incidentally, Rabon is a word for king or ruler in Hebrew. Raboniel literally means ‘my ruler is El/God’ (or ‘God is my ruler’).

Woah, that's a really cool connection, especially since some of the Unmade's names have Canaanite origins. 

22 minutes ago, Czernobog said:

Unless Vorinism follows the trait of Christianity in coopting pagan names and traditions into its own

That's a possibility!

Another idea I now have is that El used to be an important Dawnsinger who served Honor, and that was when he held the Elithanathile "He Who Transforms" title. Somehow, this name was preserved as that of an important figure and eventually got mixed up with Honor themselves.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/21/2020 at 3:35 PM, Lightspine said:

I think Voice of Lights is the most likely.

Added to the top post. 

I'm still personally leaning towards He Who Quiets at this point, but thanks for your help in adding to the list of possibilities. I hadn't caught that one. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Beltway2A said:

Added to the top post. 

I'm still personally leaning towards He Who Quiets at this point, but thanks for your help in adding to the list of possibilities. I hadn't caught that one. 

@DracostarA seems to have suggested Voice of Lights first, actually! 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/21/2020 at 8:25 PM, Zea mays said:

“El” does mean ‘God’ in many semitic languages, Hebrew being one, natch. Originally, it was the name of a specific Canaanite  god, later it became a word that means god.

 

Incidentally, Rabon is a word for king or ruler in Hebrew. Raboniel literally means ‘my ruler is El/God’ (or ‘God is my ruler’).

Regarding Raboni my first thought went to Rabboni in the Bible.

Quote

Jesus said to her, “Mary.” She turned and said to him in Aramaic, “Rabboni!” (which means Teacher). - John 20:16

This verse is an interesting one from a Biblical studies perspective.  The New Testament was written in Greek, but it is generally thought that Jesus and his acquaintances spoke Aramaic (closely related dialect to Hebrew).  Occasionally words or phrases will not be translated directly into Greek in the Bible and keep the original foreign word, as with Rabboni here.  What makes this verse extra interesting is that the writer of John specifically mentions the original word, and then defines the term in Greek (Didaskale=teacher).  Also, the more familiar/related Hebrew title of "Rabbi" is used elsewhere in John and the other Gospels without drawing attention to the term or defining its meaning, but here preserving the original spoken variation "Rabboni" is important to the author.

So I would go with some variant of "God's Teacher" for the meaning of Raboniel.  Or maybe the name has no meaning and is just a name :p.  

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One thing to mention against the case of 'He Who Quiets'

Quote

Hesitant, Moash took the sphere that Khen offered. “What was that she said? Vyre?” She had said it in a way that rhymed with “fire.” “It’s one of their names,” Khen said. “I’ve been told it means He Who Quiets.”

This quote from Oathbringer indicates that Vyre MEANS 'He Who Quiets' and it does not behave as a title. So I doubt this is the correct option for El.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ooh, this thread is interesting. While reading, I just assumed that it was "He Who Quiets", but the Raboniel and Almighty connections have made me reconsider somewhat. Here are my thoughts:

Having El be Elithanithile seems a stretch - but not an impossible one. We've already seen historical figures conflated in Vorinism. However, Tanavast was around before the Fused were. Even if he hadn't been granted the title until after El was (which seems unlikely) would this be considered as granting a human El's title? I would be inclined to say no.

As for the Voice of Lights - maybe. It seems like El was some form of scholar, and it's quite plausible that he had some connection to Raboniel. It seems like the sort of thing Sanderson would do, to potentially force a confrontation between Navani, who forged some sort of a connection with Raboniel in the end, and El, who may have been Raboniel's friend for millennia, and who will certainly be acting in an antagonistic way. However, that alone is not enough to convince me that "Voice of Lights" was his title. If there really were this connection between Raboniel and El, why would she give someone else his old title? Also, Navani being called Voice of Lights seemed to me to be a less formal thing than Moash being named Vyre. It was an expression of respect from Raboniel, but not really an elevation to being one of the Fused. It feels like it wouldn't be that big of a deal.

And then we have He Who Quiets. This is top of my list, still. We know that there were arguments about giving Moash the title, we know that it's a very important role, and we did see El acting in precisely that role during his one scene. In fact, he killed the Pursuer in the same way that Moash had killed Jezrien. Coincidence? I think not. As for this argument: 

57 minutes ago, DracostarA said:

This quote from Oathbringer indicates that Vyre MEANS 'He Who Quiets' and it does not behave as a title. So I doubt this is the correct option for El.

I would like to respectfully disagree. It's a good point, but Moash could very easily have slightly misinterpreted the linguistic customs of the Fused. It's not enough to disprove it for me.

So, overall, He Who Quiets still seems like the most compelling point to me. I'd no longer be willing to bet on it, though.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Regarding Raboni my first thought went to Rabboni in the Bible.

This verse is an interesting one from a Biblical studies perspective.  The New Testament was written in Greek, but it is generally thought that Jesus and his acquaintances spoke Aramaic (closely related dialect to Hebrew).  Occasionally words or phrases will not be translated directly into Greek in the Bible and keep the original foreign word, as with Rabboni here.  What makes this verse extra interesting is that the writer of John specifically mentions the original word, and then defines the term in Greek (Didaskale=teacher).  Also, the more familiar/related Hebrew title of "Rabbi" is used elsewhere in John and the other Gospels without drawing attention to the term or defining its meaning, but here preserving the original spoken variation "Rabboni" is important to the author.

So I would go with some variant of "God's Teacher" for the meaning of Raboniel.  Or maybe the name has no meaning and is just a name :p.  

The term actually means Master, with the root Rabon/Ribon. Like:Ribono shel Olam (Master of the world). It is often used as teacher, however.

Moshe is called Rabeinu (our teacher/master). We only use the term for our greatest sages, such as Rabeinu Gershon, Me’or HaGadol (Our teacher/master Gershon, (from) the Great Light.)

Rebbi is possibly the possessive. Hebrew sometimes drops the last letter/syllable in the singular personal possessive. So Rebbi May just be ancient slang for Riboni/Raboni. Or it could be another word entirely. Rav is seen as a name and word; sometimes the dagesh is removed/added when adding possessives.

The word you’re talking about is Rabon/Ribon, however. That one typically means master.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This idea is a little out there, but I had a thought that perhaps El's title was given to Ba-Ado-Mishram. Since El presumably has not been back since before the false desolation, he would not have known what transpired during the false desolation. My thought was that during the false desolation, with Honor losing his sanity, a bondsmith went rogue and messed with connections on Roshar. This idea started by trying to think of a reason why El cannot hear the rhythms. It could be because because he is supposed to connect to the singers.

One leap further into crazy theory world is that Ishar manipulated a human as part of his experiments and turned a human into a spren, leading that human to become Ba-Ado-Mishram after the human-spren monstrosity tried to take vengeance.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, DracostarA said:

One thing to mention against the case of 'He Who Quiets'

This quote from Oathbringer indicates that Vyre MEANS 'He Who Quiets' and it does not behave as a title. So I doubt this is the correct option for El.

In Rhythm of War:

Already there are comments and questions about the raising of a human to the title of He Who Quiets.

 

Then later: 

The Pursuer grunted, picking himself up off the ground. “They gave your title to another, you know. A human.”

“I’ve heard.”

 

How would El have heard about Navani having the title Voice of Lights?

 

43 minutes ago, Wishmaker said:

This idea is a little out there, but I had a thought that perhaps El's title was given to Ba-Ado-Mishram. Since El presumably has not been back since before the false desolation, he would not have known what transpired during the false desolation. My thought was that during the false desolation, with Honor losing his sanity, a bondsmith went rogue and messed with connections on Roshar. This idea started by trying to think of a reason why El cannot hear the rhythms. It could be because because he is supposed to connect to the singers.

One leap further into crazy theory world is that Ishar manipulated a human as part of his experiments and turned a human into a spren, leading that human to become Ba-Ado-Mishram after the human-spren monstrosity tried to take vengeance.

Mishram isnt a human.

Edited by Nymeros
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.