The Shard of Valor

[Krafl]

I watched the Shardcast episode about the Part Two epigraphs earlier today and of the four new Shards, the one i am the most excited about is Valor. As it was said on the podcast, "valor" can be considered a very close concept to "honor", especially speaking about war and fighting: for example, in Italian, my mother language, the adjective "honorable" is most often traduced with "valoroso" which comes from "valore" (the Italian word for valor).

My best guess is that Valor, as Intent, could be focused on concepts like fighting against adversities with bravery, with boldness even if it means fighting till death, but also considering existence as a sequences of challenges to overcome.

It would be very nice to learn more about her history, her location and her stance about Odium in the past, but i think that we should probably wait up until Mistborn Era 4 or Dragonsteel (or a Silverlight novel maybe), but at least we know she is willing to discuss with Harmony and Hoid about doing something about Odium right now.

As a final note, i've done a quick search on the internet about "Gods of valor" and some interesting results (from Wikipedia) are the following:

• Nerio, an ancient Roman goddess of war and personification of valor often identified with Bellona or Minerva;
• Montu, the Egyptian falcon-god of valor and war embodiment of the "conquering vitality of the pharoh";
• Suwa Myōjin a japanes god, associated with war but also valor and loyalty and sometimes represented as a snake or even a dragon.

Of course it would be wise to include in this list gods like Thor, Tyr, Ares/Mars and Athena/Minerva, even if the last two seem to me, more linked to other attributes than valor, like the chaos and cruelty for Ares, and rationality and wisdom for Athena.

So what's your take about this Shard? Also, I'm really bad at figuring out plausible magic systems, so i would like to hear ideas about a possible Invested Art from Valor.

Edited November 19, 2020 by Krafl

[Honorless]

10 minutes ago, Krafl said:

So what's your take about this Shard? Also, I'm really bad at figuring out plausible magic systems, so i would like to hear ideas about a possible Invested Art from Valor.

Overcoming obstacles, facing adversities, perseverance.

I'm thinking it's a synonym to @Pagerunner's idea for a Shard: Tribulation.

As for the method of initiation into their Invested Art, (and it is the method of initiation that depends on the Shard's Intent not the magic's effects) I'm turning towards the same idea. I can't help but think of people facing challenges & tests to be granted access to Valor's Invested Art.

Edited November 19, 2020 by Honorless

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, Krafl said:

My best guess is that Valor, as Intent, could be focused on concepts like fighting against adversities with bravery, with boldness even if it means fighting till death, but also considering existence as a sequences of challenges to overcome.

No Lightweavers under Valor, I suppose. How should I put this? The 20th century has seen armed conflicts during which one side has fought bravely, effectively and boldly, but hardly honorable. The distinction can be made. Honor would have you lose if victory would have taken unacceptable means. Valor is likely to see this the opposite way. If you have to execute or torture prisoners, so be it.

1 hour ago, Krafl said:

Of course it would be wise to include in this list gods like Thor, Tyr, Ares/Mars and Athena/Minerva, even if the last two seem to me, more linked to other attributes than valor, like the chaos and cruelty for Ares, and rationality and wisdom for Athena.

Tyr in the myth about Fenrir comes closest.

1 hour ago, Krafl said:

So what's your take about this Shard? Also, I'm really bad at figuring out plausible magic systems, so i would like to hear ideas about a possible Invested Art from Valor.

Magic by combat looks like the obvious method. And that makes me think that it is a bit too obvious. But for initialisation - gladiatorical combat?

Actually, this may be stupid, but: Pokemon - you do not convince your partner of your honor, but you defeat him.

[Kingsdaughter613]

On 11/19/2020 at 0:27 PM, Oltux72 said:

No Lightweavers under Valor, I suppose. How should I put this? The 20th century has seen armed conflicts during which one side has fought bravely, effectively and boldly, but hardly honorable. The distinction can be made. Honor would have you lose if victory would have taken unacceptable means. Valor is likely to see this the opposite way. If you have to execute or torture prisoners, so be it.

Tyr in the myth about Fenrir comes closest.

Magic by combat looks like the obvious method. And that makes me think that it is a bit too obvious. But for initialisation - gladiatorical combat?

Actually, this may be stupid, but: Pokemon - you do not convince your partner of your honor, but you defeat him.

Killing a prisoner is not valorous. Suicide bombing is. Committing an assassination in broad daylight in full view of the world. Racing into a heavily armed building. Guerrilla fighting can be, depending on how it’s done.

Honor is about bonds; Valor would likely be about courage and bravery. 

[+Oltux72]

3 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Killing a prisoner is not valorous.

Right. But neither is it necessarily unvalorous, while it is dishonorable

3 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Suicide bombing is.

Honor may not have an issue with that.

3 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Committing an assassination in broad daylight in full view of the world. Racing into a heavily armed building. Guerrilla fighting can be, depending on how it’s done.

Honor is about bonds; Valor would likely be about courage and bravery. 

Right. So how about this for really opposed reactions

Armed revolutionary insurrection against a lord you swore allegiance to

• Honor - traitors deserve a horrible death
• Valor - bring it on, dudes!

[Kingsdaughter613]

2 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Right. But neither is it necessarily unvalorous, while it is dishonorable

Honor may not have an issue with that.

Right. So how about this for really opposed reactions

Armed revolutionary insurrection against a lord you swore allegiance to

• Honor - traitors deserve a horrible death
• Valor - bring it on, dudes!

Valor would likely see killing someone who can’t fight back as cowardly, not dishonorable.

Honor could be fine with it, depending on the system. Pirates’ Code Skybreaker, for example? Honor would probably be okay with honor killings, while Valor would think it cowardly.

Honor would be very fine with many suicide bombers. I wasn’t trying to pick things the two would have opposing views on. However, Honor may not be okay with suicide bombers targeting innocents (depends on the exact system involved). Kamikaze pilots attacking enemy troops he’d be completely on board with.

Both are in on heroic sacrifice.

I get the feeling that Valor is very much the charge in, sword swinging one, while Honor is the thoughtful wise one, exercising both caution and power. 

[+Oltux72]

5 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Valor would likely see killing someone who can’t fight back as cowardly, not dishonorable.

Suppose you are behind enemy lines to strike at an important installation. You are not equipped to handle prisoners. Nevertheless you chance to meet an enemy soldier. He surrenders

• Honor - he surrendered. Abort the mission and take that prisoner to a camp
• Valor - finish him with a knife and carry on

5 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I get the feeling that Valor is very much the charge in, sword swinging one, while Honor is the thoughtful wise one, exercising both caution and power. 

That tastes a bit like turning Valor into a dumb blonde viking always going for a full frontal assault

Your orders are to hold that bridge but you are facing overwhelming odds

• Honor - hold that bridge or die trying, an order is an order
• Valor - fight a good retreat and blow the bridge by a suicide bomber as soon as small enemy forces have crossed, then counterattack - you must do most damage to the enemy, even if that means you have to have the courage to think for yourself

 

The extreme level of detail we are getting for Honor and the oaths of the Knights Radiant make us consider everything else to be less complex.

[Kingsdaughter613]

1 minute ago, Oltux72 said:

Suppose you are behind enemy lines to strike at an important installation. You are not equipped to handle prisoners. Nevertheless you chance to meet an enemy soldier. He surrenders

• Honor - he surrendered. Abort the mission and take that prisoner to a camp
• Valor - finish him with a knife and carry on

That tastes a bit like turning Valor into a dumb blonde viking always going for a full frontal assault

Your orders are to hold that bridge but you are facing overwhelming odds

• Honor - hold that bridge or die trying, an order is an order
• Valor - fight a good retreat and blow the bridge by a suicide bomber as soon as small enemy forces have crossed, then counterattack - you must do most damage to the enemy, even if that means you have to have the courage to think for yourself

 

The extreme level of detail we are getting for Honor and the oaths of the Knights Radiant make us consider everything else to be less complex.

I’d argue the first is more likely to be okay with Honor than Valor. Valor wouldn’t have you sneak in, but plenty of honor codes are fine with killing that prisoner.

Honor is more likely to have a retreat; Valor would have you die trying to hold the bridge.

Valor:  strength of mind or spirit that enables a person to encounter danger with firmness : personal bravery (Merriam-Webster) great courage, especially in war (Oxford) The later has it as a synonym for bravery.

Honor:

good name or public esteem : REPUTATION

b: a showing of usually meritedrespect : RECOGNITIONpay honor to our founder

2: PRIVILEGEhad the honor of joining the captain for dinner

3: a person of superior standing —now used especially as a title for a holder of high officeif Your Honor please

4: one whose worth brings respect or fame : CREDITan honor to the profession

5: the center point of the upper half of an armorial escutcheon

6: an evidence or symbol of distinction: such as

a: an exalted title or rank

b(1): BADGE, DECORATION

(2): a ceremonial rite or observanceburied with full military honors

c: an award in a contest or field of competition

darchaic : a gesture of deference : BOW

ehonors plural

(1): an academic distinction conferred on a superior student

(2): a course of study for superior students supplementing or replacing a regular course

7: CHASTITY, PURITYfought fiercely for her honor and her life— Barton Black

8a: a keen sense of ethical conduct : INTEGRITYa man of honor

b: one's word given as a guarantee of performance on my honor, I will be there

9honors plural : social courtesies or civilities extended by a host asked her to do the honors (Merriam-Webster) https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/english/honour_1 (link to the Oxford definition.)

 

 

[Guest Parallax]

I am perplexed why so many (including those on the most recent shardcast) are interpreting Valor as an aggressive shard.

[ftl]

Because Valor is usually associated with battle. From dictionary.com: "Valor: boldness or determination in facing great danger, especially in battle; heroic courage; bravery."

You don't get a medal for valor without putting yourself in some danger deliberately.

...I mean, I agree with your point that we're all reading far too much in to the one-word names of the Shards. But given how little there is to work off of, it makes sense why people are gravitating towards treating Valor as more aggressive.

[signspace13]

Valor could simply be the honor of a people, as opposed to an individual. As we see many time, honor is the god of Oaths and Law, not necessarily morality or ethics. I could see Valor being the other side of that coin, where he is about the general consensus of what people believe to be right, rather than what the individual considers to be right.

[shadows]

Valour is more of an actual value while Honour is more of a recognition of a value.

Boldness is a form of valour, while being bold may not always be the honourable thing to do.

Brandon must have a distinctive line he has in mind because to me the definition of valour is pretty narrow while the depiction of honour has routinely crossed over into territories that valour would encompass (bravery, courage etc).

6 hours ago, Parallax said:

I am perplexed why so many (including those on the most recent shardcast) are interpreting Valor as an aggressive shard.

I suppose it depends on how you define an aggressive shard, but I guess it's because Valour is predominantly associated with attributes like bravery, heroism, and courage, all of which require some kind of conflict to exist in the first place. With that in mind it makes sense the shards intent would be aggressive in looking for or potentially creating content.

Edited November 21, 2020 by shadows

[Guest Parallax]

5 hours ago, ftl said:

Because Valor is usually associated with battle. From dictionary.com: "Valor: boldness or determination in facing great danger, especially in battle; heroic courage; bravery."

You don't get a medal for valor without putting yourself in some danger deliberately.

I know the dictionary definition, aggression doesn't follow from courage. In the shardcast people even likened valor to a kamikaze shard which is completely off the mark. And why is deliberately putting yourself in danger doesn't imply that you have to be the aggressor. 

10 minutes ago, shadows said:

I suppose it depends on how you define an aggressive shard, but I guess it's because Valour is predominantly associated with attributes like bravery, heroism, and courage, all of which require some kind of conflict to exist in the first place. With that in mind it makes sense the shards intent would be aggressive in looking for or potentially creating content.

How do you get from bravery to aggression?

The meaning of valor is warped by the fact that today we use the word primarily in military contexts but even there the aggressive reading is not true, you can display valor in defensive situations.

Finally we have been talking about physical courage up to now, there is a separate category of moral courage ...

[shadows]

26 minutes ago, Parallax said:

How do you get from bravery to aggression?

Because valorous actions require situations to be valorous in.

I absolutely get that valour is often shown in defensive situations, but to me it seems that the shard needs an aggressive nature to ensure it is injecting itself into / creating situations where valour thrives. It may be that Brandon ties in to something else that creates the conflict, but by nature if none had found it then I do think it would be driven to create it.

Edited November 21, 2020 by shadows

[Gears]

We interpret Valor as aggressive because there is strictly more valor available in a violent environment than a peaceful one (since there is more conflict to be brave in the face of), so it would be in the Shard's interest to foster a violent environment. The Shard itself may not be violent at all, but the planet/area it dwells on would probably be more violent than the average Shardworld. In addition, Valor has no moral component, and courage depends greatly on the cultural lens it is viewed through. Our views of Valor and courage are shaped by our world. Perhaps Valor's world considers eliminating one's enemies to be incredibly courageous, and killing unarmed prisoners to be no less courageous than anything else. 

I suspect Valor's magical system depends on courage, defined as "the ability to do something that frightens one" or "strength in the face of pain or grief". So the stronger you are in the face of your fear and pain and sorrow, the more magic you can channel. However, do keep in mind that fear is in the mind, that pain and anguish and sorrow are quite relative. Perhaps one fears killing unarmed prisoners. Perhaps one kills one's family intentionally so that they might stay strong in the face of pain and grief. Valor is not rooted in morality. We cannot treat it as a Shard rooted in morality. Perhaps this is why Hoid hasn't visited. He doesn't like Valor's amorality/violent planet.

[Mason Wheeler]

19 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Honor could be fine with it, depending on the system. Pirates’ Code Skybreaker, for example?

Given that the Pirate's Code is famously more like guidelines than hard rules, I don't think that would make for a good Skybreaker.

[Kingsdaughter613]

9 hours ago, Mason Wheeler said:

Given that the Pirate's Code is famously more like guidelines than hard rules, I don't think that would make for a good Skybreaker.

Per WoB it would work.

[Guest Parallax]

A number of people arguing that Valor must be an aggressive shard because you need dangerous situations for displays of courage. If someone deliberately created a dangerous and life threatening situation so they could prove they are courageous they wouldn't be regarded as courageous. 

The more likely option is Valor choosing a planet with harsh and unforgiving environment to invest, this might also explain why Hoid is not so keen on visiting or even acquiring Valor' invested art. 

[Prymalfire]

I'm calling it now: On Valor's world, only Heroes have magic. Perhaps the means by which one shows their Valor influences what kind of magic they manifest.

On Valor's personality, I think calling them aggressive is premature. I would go with 'bold'. I think that Valor will influence the Vessel to be a bolder, more extreme version of themselves. If the Vessel were moral and just, they would become a Paragon of Virtue. If they were aggressive, then they would become the ultimate Warmonger.

Edited November 25, 2020 by Prymalfire

[+Oltux72]

On 21.11.2020 at 2:14 PM, shadows said:

I absolutely get that valour is often shown in defensive situations, but to me it seems that the shard needs an aggressive nature to ensure it is injecting itself into / creating situations where valour thrives.

Exactly. Even if you can show valor in defense, someone still has to attack.

On 21.11.2020 at 3:07 PM, Gears said:

We interpret Valor as aggressive because there is strictly more valor available in a violent environment than a peaceful one (since there is more conflict to be brave in the face of), so it would be in the Shard's interest to foster a violent environment. The Shard itself may not be violent at all, but the planet/area it dwells on would probably be more violent than the average Shardworld. In addition, Valor has no moral component, and courage depends greatly on the cultural lens it is viewed through. Our views of Valor and courage are shaped by our world. Perhaps Valor's world considers eliminating one's enemies to be incredibly courageous, and killing unarmed prisoners to be no less courageous than anything else. 

Well, the Shard is not simply Courage. So would flying a hang glider in a tornado count? It probably depends on the goal. In my eyes valor is courageously taking a personal risk in the pursuit of an external goal. Mere thrill seeking would not count.
Yet others may see martial success a component of valor, like officers get a medal for winning a major battle in some militaries even if no personal danger is involved.

On 21.11.2020 at 3:07 PM, Gears said:

I suspect Valor's magical system depends on courage, defined as "the ability to do something that frightens one" or "strength in the face of pain or grief". So the stronger you are in the face of your fear and pain and sorrow, the more magic you can channel.

The closest relation of the Intent of a Shard to its magic system seems to be in the Initiation. For Preservation it stays in the family. Endowment gives a small piece to everybody and to do something impressive people have to give a contribution. Everybody is potentially a Hemalurgist, as if to say that everything must end.

Whereas the connection of a metallic art with Preservation is hopeless. In fact, immortality easily comes from Endowment, yet Preservation turns you into a paramillitary killer. So I suspect indeed something like gladiatorial combat to gain Valor's magic.

On 21.11.2020 at 3:07 PM, Gears said:

We cannot treat it as a Shard rooted in morality. Perhaps this is why Hoid hasn't visited. He doesn't like Valor's amorality/violent planet.

Yes, yet we must also not see it as a Shard of War. That is organized violence. It seems to me that for Valor's planet we cannot assume that they follow the contemporary Western notion that violence has no place in private life among normal people.

1 hour ago, Parallax said:

A number of people arguing that Valor must be an aggressive shard because you need dangerous situations for displays of courage. If someone deliberately created a dangerous and life threatening situation so they could prove they are courageous they wouldn't be regarded as courageous. 

How would you show valor indeliberately? That would imply that you are made to fight valorously. Unless Valor's magic is only for drafted soldiers this looks contradictory.

1 hour ago, Parallax said:

The more likely option is Valor choosing a planet with harsh and unforgiving environment to invest, this might also explain why Hoid is not so keen on visiting or even acquiring Valor' invested art. 

Are we sure he hasn't acquired it? Hoid rarely uses what he has except for Lightweaving.

In fact, we know he met her. So can we speculate that to gain her magic you must win an arena fight to the death? Hoid's fights would always end in a draw. Or a Valorspren must be fed the blood of an enemy slain in single combat every few years. Hoid is also out.

[Kingsdaughter613]

4 hours ago, Parallax said:

A number of people arguing that Valor must be an aggressive shard because you need dangerous situations for displays of courage. If someone deliberately created a dangerous and life threatening situation so they could prove they are courageous they wouldn't be regarded as courageous. 

The more likely option is Valor choosing a planet with harsh and unforgiving environment to invest, this might also explain why Hoid is not so keen on visiting or even acquiring Valor' invested art. 

I’m pretty sure Valor would have been the Dark One’s Shard.

 

You can also be valorous in the day to day. Someone who goes out to a dangerous neighborhood to help the kids there is valorous. Someone sticking up for those in need can be valorous. First responders are valorous. 
 

Squashing that one really creepy bug that totally freaks you out is valorous. Valor can be found in many places!

[+robardin]

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

You can also be valorous in the day to day. Someone who goes out to a dangerous neighborhood to help the kids there is valorous. Someone sticking up for those in need can be valorous. First responders are valorous. 

Squashing that one really creepy bug that totally freaks you out is valorous. Valor can be found in many places!

...and Mercy is deciding to do a catch-and-release into the backyard of that bug instead of smushing it - let's say, purely theoretically, a four-inch long house centipede you suddenly noticed was motionless on the wall right behind your head at breakfast.

...and Invention is deciding to MacGyver a cup-and-napkin trap with stuff on the table.

...and Whimsy is shrieking comically while dropping the cup and falling backward when the centipede runs over the napkin and across the back of your hand, which you shake off.

...and Prudence is seeing the centipede disappearing by running under furniture and deciding to just forget this ever happened.

Purely theoretically. Because this never happened. Certainly not to me.

Edited November 25, 2020 by robardin

[Guest Parallax]

15 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I’m pretty sure Valor would have been the Dark One’s Shard.

Why do you say that? (I have not read the Dark One).

15 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

You can also be valorous in the day to day. Someone who goes out to a dangerous neighborhood to help the kids there is valorous. Someone sticking up for those in need can be valorous. First responders are valorous. 

Can't upvote this enough.

I guess people posting here have comfortable lives (which is good) but in general there is no shortage of occasions to display your courage in everyday life, particularly when it relates to moral, psychological and personal issues (e.g., someone deciding to get out of an abusive relationship or someone testifying against a loved one, etc.).  

[Guest Parallax]

17 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Are we sure he hasn't acquired it? Hoid rarely uses what he has except for Lightweaving.

In fact, we know he met her. So can we speculate that to gain her magic you must win an arena fight to the death? Hoid's fights would always end in a draw. Or a Valorspren must be fed the blood of an enemy slain in single combat every few years. Hoid is also out.

The bit about Hoid not acquiring Valor's invested art is pure speculation on my part but I don't see Hoid as particularly valorous. He is cautious, manipulative and at times quite immoral (recall what he did to Shai for example). 

[Kingsdaughter613]

17 minutes ago, Parallax said:

Why do you say that? (I have not read the Dark One).

Can't upvote this enough.

I guess people posting here have comfortable lives (which is good) but in general there is no shortage of occasions to display your courage in everyday life, particularly when it relates to moral, psychological and personal issues (e.g., someone deciding to get out of an abusive relationship or someone testifying against a loved one, etc.).  

Someone testifying period. It’s a pretty terrifying thing to do. Someone just facing their daily fears.

I think it’s less that people live comfortable lives, than the media giving this idea that valor is in the big things. It’s really not. It’s in seeing something that frightens you and doing it anyway. It’s in facing danger and continuing on.

The person who visits the doctor despite their fear. Every woman who chooses to carry a child. Every parent who lets their kid fly free. If it takes courage, if it takes bravery, if it means facing fear and walking onward, then that is Valor.

Spoilers for TDO

Spoiler

The Dark One takes place on a harsh world centered around the Narrative.

Every generation a Dark One rises up, his powers fueled by life energy. Turns out much of that is willingly sacrificed.

On the other side, a Chosen One rises to defeat the Dark One. The forces of Light train relentlessly so that they will be ready when the day comes.

And so the cycle turns and continues. The Chosen One faces the Dark One and the Dark One falls, only to rise again in fulfillment of the Endless Narrative. Until, of course, now.

It’s the kind of world that is built around great acts of Valor.

Edited November 26, 2020 by Kingsdaughter613