Shallan's Past and Weird Spren Stuff

[Jofwu]

13 minutes ago, drunkenbotanist said:

In the scene in RoW where Shallan visits her brothers did anyone interact with them but Mraize?

 

Now I'm worried all her brothers are lightweavings because she killed them pre-book 1 

Eylita.

But if you're going down this crazy path there's no end to it, so she's not much of an obstacle. "The books are all just a giant Lightweaving by Shallan."

[drunkenbotanist]

On 11/19/2020 at 5:00 PM, robardin said:

"I Ascended as Odium! And... My Passion is worldbuilding!"

 

 

12 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

Eylita.

But if you're going down this crazy path there's no end to it, so she's not much of an obstacle. "The books are all just a giant Lightweaving by Shallan."

My name is Shodium and my passion is worldbuilding.  

[Isilel]

On 20 January 2021 at 10:22 AM, Waffles said:

 

I wonder if Jasnah had more insight into Shallan's situation than we realized.

Hm, if Testament caught up to Shallan in Kharbranth, Jasnah should have been able to see the deadeye when she performed Soulcastings or looked into the Cognitive. Ditto detect Pattern following and observing Shallan. Yet Jasnah seemed oblivious to anything extraordinary about her ward after Soulcasting her blood and tried to give her the boot for theft. Hm...

BTW, another difference between Shallan and the Recreants may have been that she didn't break her First Oath, just her Truths, while they might have done so. 

[AquaRegia]

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

Hm, if Testament caught up to Shallan in Kharbranth, Jasnah should have been able to see the deadeye when she performed Soulcastings or looked into the Cognitive. Ditto detect Pattern following and observing Shallan. Yet Jasnah seemed oblivious to anything extraordinary about her ward after Soulcasting her blood and tried to give her the boot for theft. Hm...

This simply strikes me as good evidence that Testament DIDN'T catch up to Shallan in Kharbranth.  I agree it seems odd that Jasnah never remarked on the gaggle of Cryptics around Shallan, but we don't get much insight into Jasnah's thoughts at the time, and maybe she simply didn't see it as remarkable.

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

BTW, another difference between Shallan and the Recreants may have been that she didn't break her First Oath, just her Truths, while they might have done so. 

I think there are some VERY important differences between Shallan and the ancient Radiants, not the least of which are 1) they were adults and she was a child, and 2) their spren apparently chose to cooperate in the breaking of their bonds, whereas Testament presumably got blindsided.

[Jofwu]

On 2/26/2021 at 2:50 PM, AquaRegia said:

On 2/26/2021 at 1:34 PM, Isilel said:

Hm, if Testament caught up to Shallan in Kharbranth, Jasnah should have been able to see the deadeye when she performed Soulcastings or looked into the Cognitive. Ditto detect Pattern following and observing Shallan. Yet Jasnah seemed oblivious to anything extraordinary about her ward after Soulcasting her blood and tried to give her the boot for theft. Hm...

This simply strikes me as good evidence that Testament DIDN'T catch up to Shallan in Kharbranth.  I agree it seems odd that Jasnah never remarked on the gaggle of Cryptics around Shallan, but we don't get much insight into Jasnah's thoughts at the time, and maybe she simply didn't see it as remarkable.

I think it's a stretch to assume much about whether Jasnah did or didn't see Testament. Testament doesn't even need to be part of the picture here. We KNOW there were several Cryptics crawling around Kharbranth because Shallan sketched them. Meanwhile, the text suggests Jasnah Soulcasted on a fairly regular basis I think.

So what conclusions can we draw from that? None really. Maybe they just weren't around a lot, and on the few occasions they were she just didn't look around to see them. Maybe she caught a glimpse of them and just didn't think much of them. Maybe she saw them and just didn't know what they were.

[Bejarden]

Jasnah is surprised or annoyed when Shallan tells her that her Spren is a cryptic not an inkspren 

If she had seen a lot around don’t you think she would connect the dots?

[Thorn]

So these are fun theories.  I'm still of the opinion that Testament is not the one summoned in WoR, and Pattern is there even throughout WoK.  Its why her powers have some manifestation much like Kal's do with Syl, prior to him saying even the first ideal.  The spren just isn't sentient yet in the physical realm (Pattern becoming so by WoR beginning because her bond has progressed with him).  Testament being a deadeye, makes him a deadblade, and not useable or bondable, unless she bonded him like an Adolin/Maya, which would then conflict as a deadblade with Pattern who she already has bonded at this point (expedited bond because of subconscious familiarity with lightweaving and bonding). Pattern wouldn't gain sentience if she wasn't bonded to him.  

Unless Shallan literally counts as more than one person due to personality disorders (or maybe cognitive shadows??).  In essence, Testament was only partly killed because she hid "Formless" as a child, while she can wield Pattern as Radiant, speaking different truths as different personas.  But that gets way over complicated to me, unwieldy, and a drag on the story honestly.  

Deadeyes are Deadblades.  Mishram keeping the bond scratched out, and not available, regardless of intent or want between the spren and former bonder.  Once it's severed, it's severed so long as Mishram is captive.  Kal's bond with Syl isn't the same event either.  She's not "killed" in the same sense, not a deadeyes/deadblade.  If a moment or two of weakness could break the bond, that would be silly. The bonds thrive and go stronger as they wrestle with and overcome their personal issues toward greater resolve.  You see even Syl having her own struggles as she becomes more sentient in the physical realm throughout OB and RoW.  

Testament moving around Shadesmar with intent, only implies someone has bonded him.  Not necessarily Shallan.  Him confronting her at Lasting Integrity, only means that at some point he had to recognize her (or be told she was there), not that he was necessarily bonded to her.  

It's far easier to me to work out the plot with Testament simply being broken and dead since she killed her mother and rejected him, than some other contrived nuance to the bond.  To many exceptions to the rule aren't a good thing in my opinion.  

 

In any case, I thought while reading RoW that the big reveal was going to be Shallan having previously worked as or was the leader of the Ghostbloods considering that her personas don't always know what the others are doing, even down to Pattern being the spy for Mraize, and especially since she had this hidden "formless".   Or, even more unlikely, but would have been unsurprising is that she was a Herald or Voidbringer with a fractured mind, weaving herself a whole new messy childhood.  

 

Edited March 1, 2021 by Thorn

[Quick Ben]

1 hour ago, Thorn said:

weaving herself a whole new messy childhood.  

 

I think this is a distinct possibility.

Mainly because alot of what we see is Shallans past is contradictory, in one scene she is watching actors on stage and remarks how her parents used bring her to see plays and how is a bright spot, then shuts down the memory, yet why would a bright shot be painful ? 

Also remarks how her parents used read her stories etc, doesn't sound like unloving parents. Even when she kills her mother her father holds her tight comforting her and sings a lullaby.

I think its entirely possiblenwit will turn out that how we saw her kill her mother isn't what happened at all, and that she killed her in "cold blood" or something like that. 

The reveal of testament actually added 0 to Shallans past, the same questions remain from when the thought it was pattern all along as there is now, with regard to Shallans past. 

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, Quick Ben said:

The reveal of testament actually added 0 to Shallans past,

I have long been of the opinion that it was just a poorly redone version of Dalinar's arc in OB

[Quick Ben]

13 hours ago, Frustration said:

I have long been of the opinion that it was just a poorly redone version of Dalinar's arc in OB

I agree there is similarities.

Be interesting to see what Shallan's true past is, assuming will be revealed in book 5, if drags on into back 5 after the 10yr/15yr gap id be disappointed.

[Isilel]

On 28 February 2021 at 6:15 AM, Jofwu said:

So what conclusions can we draw from that? None really. Maybe they just weren't around a lot, and on the few occasions they were she just didn't look around to see them. Maybe she caught a glimpse of them and just didn't think much of them.

But what about when Shallan mentally entered Shadesmar using just a dim sphere for stormlight and Jasnah had to pull her out? Surely Testament and/or Pattern had to be hanging around in the Cognitive close to Shallan then!

 

On 28 February 2021 at 6:15 AM, Jofwu said:

Maybe she saw them and just didn't know what they were.

Maybe. Ivory does have communication problems, so it isn't impossible. 

[+robardin]

So, yeah - the "voice" that demanded a Truth from Shallan in order to Soulcast in Kharbranth, or the Lightweaving she performed with Hoid when he came to deliver a message from Heleran to the Davar household, the Shardblade she summoned to kill Tyn (and possibly, to work the Oathgate or to lend to Kaladin to deal with the chasmfiend?!) - these must have been due to her suppressed bond with Testament.

However, we see in Shadesmar that Testament appears about as deadeyed as other deadeyes - the "still living and even Nahel-bond-using Radiant" aspect doesn't seem to affect that.

On the other hand, Syl explained to Kaladin, I was only as dead as your oaths. Once Kaladin reached the Third Ideal, his abrogation of the Second Ideal was superceded.

So it would seem that Shallan needs to get past whatever Ideal she had been at with Testament to revive that bond? Is that why her Radiant persona was seen in glowing garnet Shardplate at Thaylen Fields (but not since)?

[Honorless]

Wow, I didn't realize this was so heavily foreshadowed! Then again I didn't see any of the twists coming in the original Mistborn trilogy either.

[Could Be Fire]

On 11/20/2020 at 7:43 PM, Argent said:

Hmm, I wonder if the imprisonment of Ba-Ado-Mishram made it so Radiant spren, when "killed," end up in this limbo state where their Radiant essentially drags their near-corpse behind, gaining a small measure of the power they used to have. Whereas prior to the Recreance, if a Radiant broke their Oaths, only the bond would break - the spren would be hurt, similarly to how they get hurt when the Radiant dies, but would be able to recuperate. 

Elantris semi-spoilers

Quote

I haven't noticed this until now but Deadeyes are very similar to the Shaod...

And with the reveal of what was wrong with the Sibling and the tones, the solution might be similar to the one found on Sel 

 

Edited May 17, 2021 by Could Be Fire

[AquaRegia]

On 3/1/2021 at 4:53 PM, Thorn said:

Testament being a deadeye, makes him a deadblade, and not useable or bondable, unless she bonded him like an Adolin/Maya, which would then conflict as a deadblade with Pattern who she already has bonded at this point...

It's far easier to me to work out the plot with Testament simply being broken and dead since she killed her mother and rejected him, than some other contrived nuance to the bond.  To many exceptions to the rule aren't a good thing in my opinion.

1)  Testament is female, referred to as "she" in the text.

2)  It is explicitly stated, near the end of Shallan's arc in RoW, that she has not one but TWO Shardblades.  She absolutely IS bonded to both Pattern and Testament, and all your arguments about why it can't be so are directly contradicted by the book.

3)  I think you fell into the trap of assuming that "the way we've seen it happen" is equal to "it can ONLY happen that way"; Brandon sets up these traps for us on purpose.  Both readers AND in-world characters alike are are never in a position to judge "exceptions to the rule"... because we simply never know all the rules. 

On 3/1/2021 at 6:40 PM, Quick Ben said:

Mainly because alot of what we see is Shallans past is contradictory, in one scene she is watching actors on stage and remarks how her parents used bring her to see plays and how is a bright spot, then shuts down the memory, yet why would a bright shot be painful ? 

Also remarks how her parents used read her stories etc, doesn't sound like unloving parents. Even when she kills her mother her father holds her tight comforting her and sings a lullaby.

Good memories can be closely linked to painful ones.  Anyone with childhood trauma can confirm that just because bad things happened does not preclude good things happening - in fact, parents being unpredictable, kind one minute and cruel the next, is a very common pattern.  The "good" gets intimately mixed with the "bad" in the child's mind, and human emotions and memories are both very messy things.

I find the way Brandon has gradually unwrapped Shallan's traumatic past to be extremely interesting, thoroughly realistic, and masterfully well written.  Certainly, it may not resonate with you or ring true for you; if not, be thankful you don't have the kind of personal history that would make it more relatable.

[+Harrycrapper]

On 1/19/2021 at 8:02 AM, yulyulk said:

Could we figure out which Unmade was corrupting the Davar household I wonder? BAM was captured, Re-Shephir was in Urithiru, Nergaoul was presumably in Alethkar, Sja-Anat says she slumbered until the Everstorm came.

Remaining options:

• Yelig-nar: I don't know if he has any influence before you swallow the gemstone containing him
• Ashertman: eventually ends up in Kholinar, maybe moved thru Jah Keved while going East
• Moelach: only seems to affect Death Rattles, so shouldn't have impacted the living
• Dai-gonarthis and Chemoarish: likely candidates because we truly don't know anything about them

I believe it's Dai-gonarthis based on this death rattle from WoK:

Quote

"Let me no longer hurt! Let me no longer weep! Dai-gonarthis! The Black Fisher holds my sorrow and consumes it!"

First, among the options you have there, we can discount two of them. Moelach like you said seems to only interact with soon to be dead people and hasn't exhibited any traits that would indicate he affects the living. If he did, I get the feeling it would come in the form of showing them visions of the future. Ashertman affected people in a much more obvious way than the Davar household indicated they were being affected. Only really Jushu exhibits the characteristics of someone under the influence of the Revel, and even then he seems more like someone gambling and drinking from depression rather than a desire to let go of his inhibitions. 

Second, I think the Dustmother uses the Surge of Division or her abilities are similarly destructive. I have nothing to base this on besides the fact that the order that is mostly known for Division is the Dustbringers and the patron Herald of that Order is Chanarach which sounds kind of similar to Chemoarish. Not much to go on, but it's pretty much all we have on her. So, I don't think she's the likely one out the the two remaining Unmade. But, she can't be eliminated from the list until we get confirmation otherwise or learn more about her.

Lastly, the Davars all have different mental issues, but there was a common theme between Lin and Balat of giving up their pain by making others suffer. Lin with the servants, Balat with animals and cremlings. Going on that death rattle, Dai-gonarthis works similar to how Odium and Moash interact, where Moash gives him his pain. I think it's likely that he was somehow stoking and feeding off the Davars' collective anguish and despair. 

[Jofwu]

I've been meaning to come here and make an addendum... When I first made this theory there were several pieces to it that I was unsure about. Pieces which had a safe, easy answer or, alternatively, a more extreme and probably unlikely answer. Most notably, I'm thinking of the assertions that Shallan used Testament throughout Words of Radiance, including in the chasm and Oathgate. (if that surprises you, don't bother questioning me here--you can read the arguments for these ideas earlier in the topic) Ultimately, I figured it would encourage more discussion and be more fun if I posted a more provocative version of the theory.

But after letting things stew for a while, I definitely think I've landed with a more conservative interpretation of events.

Shallan Shardblade References

Shallan uses her Shardblade(s) only a handful of times, and doesn't think about them many times beyond that. Here are all of them that I can think of in the first two books, with a few others... If you think I'm missing one that's of any note, please let me know!

Quote

TWoK chapter 8

 

As always, thinking of her father made her feel ill, and the pain started to constrict her chest. She raised her freehand to her head, suddenly overwhelmed by the weight of House Davar’s situation, her part in it, and the secret she now carried, hidden ten heartbeats away.

 

Not much to say on this one. It's the first hint that she has a Shardblade though. There's reason I've highlighted "ten heartbeats" though...

Quote

TWoK chapter 45

Except …

Storms! she thought, frantic. I can't use that. I promised myself.

She began the process anyway. Ten heartbeats, to bring forth the fruit of her sin, the proceeds of her most horrific act. She was interrupted midway through by a voice, uncanny yet distinct:

What are you?

And here's the next hint. Also not much to tackle... Worth mentioning that I think this is Testament speaking, rather than Pattern. But I've covered this, including basis for that opinion, in my original post.

I suppose it's a bit interesting that she claims to have "promised herself" not to use her Shardblade. We never saw this in her flashbacks. Could be a very minor moment without much more to say, but it's also very possible that this refers to when she broke her bond with Testament.

In light of something we see a big later, again don't forget about this repeated insistence that it requires ten heartbeats to summon her blade.

Quote

WoR chapter 3

Fool. A memory rose unbidden. A silvery sword. A pattern of light. Truths she could not face. She banished them, squeezing her eyes shut.

Ten heartbeats.

Another mention of the ten heartbeats... I'll get to my point on this soon.

The most exciting thing here, however, is that it's our first description of the Blade she used to kill her mother. (or at least that's very much what it seems to be) "A silvery sword".

Quote

WoR chapter 7

Shallan trembled, still numb. Jasnah. . . .

“Sword,” a voice said. Pattern, hanging on the wall beside her. “Mmmm . . . The sword . . .”

“No!” Shallan screamed, hands to the sides of her head, fingers in her hair. Stormfather! She was trembling.

Nightmare. It was a nightmare! It couldn’t be—

“Mmmm . . . Fight . . .”

“No! ” Shallan found herself hyperventilating as the men outside continued to ram their shoulders against her door. She was not ready for this. She was not prepared.

Nothing here, but including the quote for completeness.

Quote

WoR chapter 34

“Pattern?” she croaked. “Pattern?”

She heard something outside. Shouts?

“I’m sorry,” Tyn said, voice cold. “I’m going to have to tie this up tight. In a way, I’m proud of you. You fooled me. You’d have been good at this.”

Calm, Shallan told herself. Be calm!

Ten heartbeats.

But for her, it didn’t have to be ten, did it?

No. It must be. Time, I need time!

She had spheres in her sleeve. As Tyn approached, Shallan breathed in sharply. Stormlight became a raging tempest inside of her and she raised her hand, thrusting out a pulse of Light. She couldn’t form it into anything—she still didn’t know how—but it seemed for a moment to show a rippling image of Shallan, standing proudly like a woman of the court.

Tyn stopped short at the sight of the projection of light and color, then waved her sword out in front of her. The Light rippled, dissipating into smoky trails.

“So I’m going mad,” Tyn said. “Hearing voices. Seeing things. I guess part of me doesn’t want to do this.” She advanced, raising her blade. “I’m sorry that you have to learn the lesson this way. Sometimes, we must do things we don’t like, kid. Difficult things.”

Shallan growled, thrusting her hands forward. Mist twisted and writhed in her hands as a brilliantly silver Blade formed there, spearing Tyn through the chest. The woman barely had time to gasp in surprise as her eyes burned in her skull.

Tyn’s corpse slid back off the weapon, collapsing in a heap.

[further down the page...]

“Dead, Brightness,” Red said. “We heard . . . heard a voice. Telling us to come get you, and they wouldn’t let us pass. Then we heard you screaming, and—”

Okay, this is a juicy one. Especially because someone asked Brandon about it in December, as to whether we see Pattern or Testament here. Brandon RAFO'd but also said, "I think this one is pretty clear." Let's be clear: Brandon often says things are clear when they very much are not, or vice versa! But I think he's rigth about this one.

It's notable, I think, that Pattern doesn't seem to be present. Further up the page, we see that he was. (It seems, at least, that he imitated Jasnah's voice to confuse Tyn.) But at the beginning of the excerpt I've quoted, we see Shallan call Pattern and he doesn't respond. It's simple to assume that he simply didn't answer... But at the end we also have Red claiming that a voice told them to come help her. This all suggests to me that Pattern left to get help, and wasn't present when Shallan summoned her Blade. This doesn't mean she couldn't have summoned Pattern. But I DO think it's a clue that's at least a big suggestive.

The description ("briliantly silver") is a BIG clue. We saw in WoR chapter 3 that she killed her mother with a "silvery sword". And we're dealing with two quotes from the same book, which makes me extra comfortable with the assumption that attention was paid to continuity on this description.

I think Shallan used Testament to kill Tyn.

So why have I been harping on the ten heartbeats thing? I've theorized previously that perhaps Testament isn't subject to that limit. And of course in our pre-RoW reads of these books, it's easy to ASSUME Shallan is correct at the end of Words of Radiance when she says she doesn't need ten heartbeats after all. And, well, she is partly correct. Partly. When it comes to Pattern. But what if Testament does indeed require ten heartbeats? What if these insistences on ten heartbeats  are not entirely wrong? When she says "I don't need ten heartbeats" (and then buys herself more time by Lightweaving a distraction) she isn't wrong. To summon Testament she does need ten heartbeats.

Also worth noting that Testament doesn't scream at her. (unless there's some next-level mental blocks going on, which isn't impossible) My theory on this was that Shallan being Testament's Radiant means she behaves a bit differently than other deadeyes.

Quote

WoR chapter 63

Shallan trembled, breath catching.

Ten heartbeats.

“One of Ishar’s Knights,” the madman whispered. His eyes narrowed. “I remember . . . He founded them? Yes. Several Desolations ago. No longer just talk. It hasn’t been talk for thousands of years. But . . . When . . .”

He stumbled back from her, hand to his head. Her Shardblade dropped into her hands, but she no longer appeared to need it. The man turned his back to her, walked to his bed, then lay down and curled up.

Shallan inched forward, and found he was back to whispering the same things as before. She dismissed the Blade.

Mother’s soul . . .

“Shallan?” Pattern asked. “Shallan, are you mad?”

Part of me wondered if we see the Blade appear in less than ten heartbeats here... But it's too hard to say, especially with her heart beating pretty fast. Actually, I guess I lean towards the assumption that she DID wait ten heartbeats. It takes me ten seconds to read that line from Taln with barely any natural pauses. A frightened person's heart definitely beats 10 times in about that long. But that's not proof it's not Pattern, so this doesn't tell us much.

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WoR chapter 73

Kaladin stared at the glistening length of metal, which dripped with condensation from its summoning. It glowed softly the color of garnet along several faint lines down its length.

Shallan had a Shardblade.

He twisted his head toward her, and in so doing, his cheek brushed the flat of the blade. No screams. He froze, then cautiously raised a finger and touched the cold metal.

Nothing happened. The screech he had heard in his mind when fighting alongside Adolin did not recur. It seemed a very bad sign to him. Though he did not know the meaning of that terrible sound, it was related to his bond with Syl.

[...]

Shallan’s Blade glowed softly too, from a strange pattern along its length. Kaladin had never seen one do that before, but then, he’d never seen a Shardblade in the dark before.

[...]

She started climbing them. Standing on one and clinging to the highest one, she summoned the Blade again and tried to cut a step even higher, but the thing was just so blasted long.

Obligingly, it shrank in her hand to the size of a much shorter sword, really a big knife.

Thank you, she thought, then cut out the next line of rock.

And here's the next big one--the chasm.

Now... it's possible (in my opinion) to rationalize that this is the same "silvery" Blade. Silvery with a soft glow of garnet seems... not impossible. But I don't think this is the intent at all. This is Pattern. It's notable that it glows, like all "living" Blades we've seen, from a glyph. Contrasted with Testament, who is a dull silver with no such glow. (edit: eh.... well, Testament was alive when she killed her mother, so maybe this isn't quite right. maybe the idea is simply that Testament happens to be more silvery and Pattern glows a more distinct garnet?)

And there's also the length-change thing, again strongly indicating Pattern.

There's a few other references in this chapter that I haven't quoted. One at the very end of 72, but I think this is everything notable.

Quote

WoR chapter 86

Shallan grabbed the hilt of his sword and whipped it out—ignoring the scream in her mind that came from touching it—then tossed it aside. Adolin’s sword vanished to mist.

A deep truth.

“There is something wrong with your Blade, and with all Blades.” She hesitated for just a second. “All but mine. Pattern!”

He formed in her hands, the Blade she’d used to kill. The hidden soul. Shallan rammed it into the slot, and the weapon vibrated in her hands and glowed. Something deep within the plateau unlocked .

So here's where she uses her Blade to open the Oathgate. Again, I've argued this could be Testament... But I think that's unlikely. It's probably Pattern, just as it appears. (despite the insistence that it's the Blade she used to kill her mother)

Some have proposed this as another truth for Shallan. I was originally very skeptical of this, but... Maybe?

Quote

RoW chapter 88

She was there, in her father's room. Trembling, she pulled aside the picture, revealing the strongbox in the wall beyond. She raised the key, and hesitated. "Mother’s soul is inside."

"Mmm . . . No. Not her soul. That which took her soul."

Shallan unlocked the safe, then tugged it open, revealing the contents. A small Shardblade. Thrust into the strongbox hastily, tip piercing through the back, hilt toward her.

"This was you," she whispered.

"Mmm . . . Yes."

"Father took you from me," Shallan said, "and tried to hide you in here. Of course, that was useless. You vanished as soon as he closed the strongbox. Faded to mist. He wasn’t thinking clearly. Neither of us were."

I skipped a reference of her holding the Blade with Mraize, but zero details there.

And here's Shallan reliving the death of her mother. This is Testament as a Blade of course, despite Pattern's lie.

Quote

OB chapter 15

The Blade formed—a long, thin weapon nearly as tall as she was.

Another description of her Shardblade. "A long, thin weapon nearly as tall as she was." Unfortunately we don't see a description of the length elsewhere. Almost certainly Pattern here. Aside from the general sense that she seems to have moved on from using Testament at this point, we know that Testament's inkspren business partner found her far in the east somewhere in the timeframe of Oathbringer. If Shallan had used Testament in Urithiru (or Kholinar, later) then she wouldn't have been in the east still. (And if Shallan had used her since then, she would have been pulled away from the partner after being found--which obviously never happened) It's safe to assume there are no more Testament uses after WoR.

There are several other Oathbringer references... some in Urithiru... One when she draws it to activate the Kholinar Oathgate. These can ass be dismissed.

Quote

OB chapter 119

A second glowing form split off into Shallan Davar, brilliant red hair streaming behind her, a long thin Shardblade with a slight curve forming in her hands.

And here's Shallan stepping out of Shadesmar into Thaylen City. Long and thin matches the Patternblade description in OB 115, so safe to assume this is Pattern once again I think. Slight curve is a new detail we've never seen mentioned before.

Quote

OB chapter 120

Pattern appeared as a Shardblade with a faint, almost invisible latticework running up the length.

So Pattern also has a faint latticework pattern along the Blade.

And there's not many references in Rhythm of War because Shallan spends most of it in Shadesmar. She draws it when dealing with Ialai, but there's no descriptions there. Testament is with her business partner at that point of course, so it was Pattern there regardless. And that's it.

Shallan's Truths

And then we come to the truths...

One of the biggest things I was trying to explain by reaching hard with the original concept here was the timing of when Shallan gets Patternblade. The biggest issue that I'm left with, by walking back from the idea that Shallan used Testament to operate the Oathgate an didn't reach "level 3" with Pattern until "I killed my mother" in Urithiru... Is explaining how she had Pattern at an earlier time.

Let me break it down...

I'm pretty dead set on the idea that "I'm terrified" was NOT a truth spoken to Pattern. See original post for this argument. It seems to be a different voice that spoke to her there (surely Testament). Rather, the first truth spoken to Pattern seems to have been "I killed my father" at the end of TWoK.

But we don't have any other clear truths from Shallan between that point and the chasm scene, where (as we covered above) she clearly seems to have utilized Pattern. Someone has pointed out "deeper truth" reference when she operates the Oathgate, where she sort of speaks a truth in insisting that her Shardblade is different. You COULD take that as her 2nd truth, giving her a Shardblade at the standard level JUST before she needs to use it. But it doesn't help with the chasm scene, and that one is pretty darn compelling to me.

So what are our options?

1. I'm wrong about "I'm terrified"... But I'm firmly against that idea.
2. Shallan spoke some earlier truth to Pattern and "I killed my father" is her second.
   • On one hand... this could explain why we never see a clear First Ideal exchange with Pattern. (though I've never seen a strong need for that)
   • The idea here being that she regressed like Kaladin did with Syl in WoR. She didn't kill Pattern like Testament... just caused their bond to fade...
   • ... until she spoke "I killed my father" and pulled him back out of limbo.
   • But I really hate this for the idea that she has blanked out on TWO spren bonds prior to TWoK. That's just silly... and difficult to believe.
3. Maybe Lightweavers get Blades at "level 2".
   • Don't love this without more suggestive proof. Especially since RoW showed us Lightweavers who have a spren but no Blade.
4. Maybe Lightweaver truths make them advance at different rates and she got to "level 3" sooner than we realize?
   • When speaking "I killed my father" there's an interesting line about "stronger truths make a more powerful bond" (paraphrasing)
5. Something about her bond to Testament is allowing Patternblade at an earlier point?
   • This could go lots of different directions...
   • Maybe it's a simple consequence of already bonding a spren up to some point. If second honorspren wants to bond a Windrunner (for who knows what reason) I'm inclined to think they could advance their bond swiftly and maybe even without Ideal reruns?
   • Maybe it's a combination with #4 and truths count for more in such cases?
   • Maybe Shallan being more Invested than usual makes it possible to have a Shardblade at a lower level?
   • Maybe something else?

I think I'm inclined to assume #5 at the moment... Maybe with a bit of #4 going on as well...?

[AquaRegia]

I love all the work you have put into this!  I don't have any strong opinions about your 5 options, other than to agree that Shallan's story is messy and confusing.  I think it's certain we still don't know everything... and I expect Shallan will learn more right alongside the readers in SA5.

A few comments on some specific assertions:

6 hours ago, Jofwu said:

But what if Testament does indeed require ten heartbeats? What if these insistences on ten heartbeats  are not entirely wrong? When she says "I don't need ten heartbeats" (and then buys herself more time by Lightweaving a distraction) she isn't wrong. To summon Testament she does need ten heartbeats.

Not totally sure what you mean by these contradictory sentences, but I think Brandon's intent with the multiple "ten heartbeats" references is clear.  "Ten heartbeats" was hammered into us every time anyone summons a Shardblade in the first two novels; EVERYBODY, in-world characters and readers alike, "knows" that it takes ten heartbeats.  The fact that LIVING Blades DON'T need ten heartbeats is irrelevant, as no one alive (omitting spren and Heralds) had ever SEEN a living blade.  Of course Shallan believes it takes ten heartbeats... and of course, as with so many other things, she's wrong.  If it does take ten heartbeats for her to summon Testament, it's simply because she believes it does.  Even when, in true Shallan fashion, part of her knows it DOESN'T.

Brandon wants Shallan to have a way to obliquely think about her Shardblade without the image of a sword, and "ten heartbeats" is both poetic and convenient.  It's also a sneaky  way to tip off readers early in Shallan's story that something strange is going on.

I'll also point out that during the Battle of Thaylen City, Adolin finds that he is able to summon Maya in fewer than ten heartbeats.  As always, we can't count on Cosmere magic following "the rules" because we never KNOW the rules.

Quote

If Shallan had used Testament in Urithiru (or Kholinar, later) then she wouldn't have been in the east still. (And if Shallan had used her since then, she would have been pulled away from the partner after being found--which obviously never happened) It's safe to assume there are no more Testament uses after WoR.

I'd have to go back and read some old topics for arguments and evidence, but I feel confident that we've established that deadeyes summoned as Blades, when dismissed, return to their previous location in Shadesmar.  A deadeye spren disappearing from Shadesmar, then reappearing an hour later, would be no surprise to anyone, and probably not even worthy of mention.  We should therefore not assume it "never happened", although I agree it's likely Shallan did not summon Testament after RoW.  Once she accepted her identity as a Radiant, Pattern would always be the obvious choice.

[Jofwu]

3 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

Not totally sure what you mean by these contradictory sentences, but I think Brandon's intent with the multiple "ten heartbeats" references is clear.

The point was that it could be a double-fakeout.

• At first you think she needs ten heartbeats because that's how Shardblades work.
• Then you come to the end of WoR and realize living Blades are a thing, and they don't require ten heartbeats. So Shallan was just lying to herself.
• THEN you read RoW and realize she wasn't using a living Blade there, so she did need ten heartbeats after all. (maybe)

That's not to say I've taken back my original thrust that Testament isn't subject to the ten heartbeat rule. Like you said, Adolin/Maya is evidence enough that Testament maybe doesn't require ten heartbeats. It's just an interesting, twisty idea that maybe she does after all. (or at least did at that point, perceptions aside)

3 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

I'd have to go back and read some old topics for arguments and evidence, but I feel confident that we've established that deadeyes summoned as Blades, when dismissed, return to their previous location in Shadesmar.

Oh, I think you're right. Thanks. That goes against my intuition, but I do seem to think evidence was in favor of the idea that they return to a relative location.

But then I would fall back on the argument that, if Testament were summoned at some point after being found by the business partner, the partner would be aware of that fact. (having seen her disappear and come back at one point or another) And it feels a significant detail that would have come up. Certainly possible the inkspren just failed to mention it... but it's at least one more nail in the coffin of the idea that Shallan summoned Testament post-WoR in my opinion.

[Marethyu316]

11 hours ago, Jofwu said:

The description ("briliantly silver") is a BIG clue.

Except lots of shardblades are described as silver or silvery. There doesn't appear to be a description of the Patternblade that describes his color, but it seems perfectly likely that he is also silver. Do we have descriptions of Blades being other colors?

Re: Pattern not responding right away.

Shallan is able to summon Pattern from far away, like she did in Rhythm of War. I think you're right about it being Testament, but I don't think Pattern's absence is definitive.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Marethyu316

[Jofwu]

15 minutes ago, Marethyu316 said:

Except lots of shardblades are described as silver or silvery. There doesn't appear to be a description of the Patternblade that describes his color, but it seems perfectly likely that he is also silver. Do we have descriptions of Blades being other colors?

You missed the chasm quote where it describes Patternblade as glowing garnet, I think?

We see two mentions of a "silver" Blade and one mention of a "glowing garnet" blade. Like I said... these COULD be the same Blade. Maybe the glow was missing (for some logical reason) or just not mentioned previously. I just tend to think it's Brandon's way of giving a subtle hint that it's not the same Blade. The sort of hint that you wouldn't notice in a first read if you don't start from the (at the time) outlandish premise that Shallan actually has TWO Shardblades.

22 minutes ago, Marethyu316 said:

Shallan is able to summon Pattern from far away, like she did in Rhythm of War. I think you're right about it being Testament, but I don't think Pattern's absence is definitive.

Agreed. It would be more compelling if there was evidence that he was still trying to reach the guards at the time the Blade was drawn. But there's descriptions to suggest her guards at come to the tent (thus Pattern had already reached them) early in the excerpt.

I just thought it was interesting that he seemingly wasn't there. There's no reason should couldn't have summoned him back. Pattern being gone just feels to me like a light nod to the idea that it wasn't him.

[Marethyu316]

17 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

You missed the chasm quote where it describes Patternblade as glowing garnet, I think?

Yup, you're totally right!

[crème de la crèmling]

I have been thinking about this whole thing a lot since I first finished RoW, and when I did my full series re-read, I took a lot of notes on pretty much every little thing Shallan did or said (and especially in light of this thread). This mystery is intriguing enough to me that I wanted to contribute to the discussion; I think there is a sixth option! My personal conclusion right now is that Shallan's truths to Pattern are basically all lies and her "real truths" are different from what is generally assumed. This is a part of a larger argument that I've been working on that goes over everything that I think even remotely resembles an Ideal. 

This notion started when I noted down this quote: 

Quote

Pattern hummed. “Truth is individual.” 

“What? No it’s not. Truth is . . . it’s Truth. Reality.” 

“Your truth is what you see,” Pattern said, sounding confused. “What else could it be? That is the truth that you spoke to me, the truth that brings power.”

WoR, Chapter 24: Tyn

I essentially think that none of the Truths spoken as traditionally interpreted (except for maybe "I'm terrified,") are really Shallan's perception of the events, just the basic facts. "I killed my father" is not the Ideal--the truth that brings power is "I am a murderer," in my opinion. I also think the traditional timeline for Ideals is merely Shallan's false timeline for Ideals. As a part of convincing herself, she has to convince the reader that it is real and viable. I think the lack of obvious truths is a part of that grand deception. From other portions of the book, it's clear that she can literally force herself to just black out entire memories in real time. I think she uses that to sneakily swear Ideals under the radar. I specifically think that this scene is Shallan swearing Ideal 3 (aka Truth 2) to Pattern.

Quote

“Shallan,” Pattern said, moving closer to her. “I know that you have forgotten much of what once was. Those lies attracted me. But you cannot continue like this; you must admit the truth about me. About what I can do, and what we have done. Mmm . . . More, you must know yourself. And remember.” 

She sat cross-legged on the too-nice bed. Memories tried to claw their way out of the boxes inside her head. Those memories all pointed one way, toward carpet bloodied. And carpet . . . not. 

“You wish to help,” Pattern said. “You wish to prepare for the Everstorm, the spren of the unnatural one. You must become something. I did not come to you merely to teach you tricks of light.” 

“You came to learn,” Shallan said, staring at her map. “That’s what you said.” 

“I came to learn. We became to do something greater.” 

“Would you have me unable to laugh?” she demanded, suddenly holding back tears. “Would you have me crippled? That is what those memories would do to me. I can be what I am because I cut them off.” 

An image formed in front of her, born of Stormlight, created by instinct. She hadn’t needed to draw this image first, for she knew it too well. 

The image was of herself. Shallan, as she should be. Curled in a huddle on the bed, unable to weep for she had long since run out of tears. This girl . . . not a woman, a girl . . . flinched whenever spoken to. She expected everyone to shout at her. She could not laugh, for laughter had been squeezed from her by a childhood of darkness and pain. 

That was the real Shallan. She knew it as surely as she knew her own name. The person she had become instead was a lie, one she had fabricated in the name of survival. To remember herself as a child, discovering Light in the gardens, Patterns in the stonework, and dreams that became real . . .

 . . . 

“Mmmm . . . Such a deep lie,” Pattern whispered. “A deep lie indeed. But still, you must obtain your abilities. Learn again, if you have to.”

WoR, Chapter 60: Veil Walks

I think that this is the the real Truth: "I can be what I am because I cut [the memories] off." That ellipsis is present in the text. I think the ellipsis is necessary for Shallan because Ideal 3 seems to come with a non-negotiable first manifestation of a Shardblade. (Kaladin doesn't appear to do it consciously the first time; neither does Lopen, who is completely shocked. Lift almost does, but it's timed in the most dramatic way possible.) Shallan can't allow herself to acknowledge that this is the first manifestation of the Patternblade, because obviously she should already have that Shardblade! She already killed Tyn with it. She has to lie to herself so the timeline works. I think that this may be the deep lie that Pattern refers to here.

Immediately after this, she makes significant progress on Veil, and Pattern learns how to use sarcasm, which to me is evidence of their deepening bond. When their bond weakens in OB, it makes a lot more sense to me in this context. Shallan isn't using her lies and creations to be herself, she's using them to run away and become someone else entirely. She's going back on this specific oath. When Shallan pulls Veil and Radiant in on the mission, when they become her helpers and companions so that she can be who she is, that's when she solidifies the Truth she spoke to Pattern. There are some other little bits--when I did my re-read, I noted every time Shallan instinctively used her powers, and it seems that it typically happens for her at crucial moments like these. Also, check out that early reference to multiple Patterns! 

As for Ideal 2, it could be "I killed my father, I'm a murderer", but I think it's actually in this scene here: 

Quote

Pattern connects increasingly complex thoughts, Shallan wrote. Abstractions come easily to him. Early, he asked me the questions “Why? Why you? Why be?” I interpreted this as asking me my purpose. When I replied, “To find truth,” he easily seemed to grasp my meaning. And yet, some simple realities—such as why people would need to eat—completely escape him.

WoR, Chapter 6: Terrible Destruction

To me, this seems like the type of Truth that would be universal for the Lightweavers as an order. If Pattern really did bond her recently, I think this is a likely candidate for Ideal 2. It's reflective of his interests as a spren and the kinds of truths he is intrigued by. He always wants to know why. 

Quote

“Mmm…” Pattern said, humming to himself. “Why. So many answers to a why. You want the truest one, but any such truth is also a lie, as it pretends to be the only answer.” 

RoW, Chapter 75: The Middle Step

Compare to the questions asked by the mysterious voice who I am increasingly certain is actually Testament: 

Quote

She was interrupted midway through by a voice, uncanny yet distinct: 

What are you?

TWoK, Chapter 45: Shadesmar

That's not enough, the voice whispered. I must know something true about you. Tell me. The stronger the truth, the more hidden it is, the more powerful the bond. Tell me. Tell me. What are you?

TWoK, Chapter 70: Sea of Glass

Testament, if that is who is speaking, clearly has a different approach! Her interests must be different. She wants to know what Shallan truly is, whereas Pattern concerns himself with why she is. It makes sense to me that the first Truth Shallan speaks to him has to do with why. It also loops back to that quote I started with, referring to the truth that she spoke to him. Shallan perceives herself as seeking truth--that's why she's doing what she's doing--and Pattern accepts this as truth, realizing that at this time there are truths that Shallan can't handle. 

This interpretation particularly improves my enjoyment of OB, since I felt I had a better understanding of what Shallan might mean when she talks about an Ideal sworn but not realized (though this could also be speaking about Testament.) At the very least, it squares the timeline for me, allowing for a living Shardblade in both the chasms and at the Oathgate. I also have an interest in puzzling through the actual Ideals Shallan may/may not have sworn and what they mean to her on a thematic level. I thought it might be fun to add to the discussion in that way, too!

[AquaRegia]

My goodness, this makes a lot of sense.  Great idea, great research, thanks for sharing!

[+Harrycrapper]

On 5/18/2021 at 11:11 PM, Jofwu said:

So what are our options?

1. I'm wrong about "I'm terrified"... But I'm firmly against that idea.
2. Shallan spoke some earlier truth to Pattern and "I killed my father" is her second.
   • On one hand... this could explain why we never see a clear First Ideal exchange with Pattern. (though I've never seen a strong need for that)
   • The idea here being that she regressed like Kaladin did with Syl in WoR. She didn't kill Pattern like Testament... just caused their bond to fade...
   • ... until she spoke "I killed my father" and pulled him back out of limbo.
   • But I really hate this for the idea that she has blanked out on TWO spren bonds prior to TWoK. That's just silly... and difficult to believe.
3. Maybe Lightweavers get Blades at "level 2".
   • Don't love this without more suggestive proof. Especially since RoW showed us Lightweavers who have a spren but no Blade.
4. Maybe Lightweaver truths make them advance at different rates and she got to "level 3" sooner than we realize?
   • When speaking "I killed my father" there's an interesting line about "stronger truths make a more powerful bond" (paraphrasing)
5. Something about her bond to Testament is allowing Patternblade at an earlier point?
   • This could go lots of different directions...
   • Maybe it's a simple consequence of already bonding a spren up to some point. If second honorspren wants to bond a Windrunner (for who knows what reason) I'm inclined to think they could advance their bond swiftly and maybe even without Ideal reruns?
   • Maybe it's a combination with #4 and truths count for more in such cases?
   • Maybe Shallan being more Invested than usual makes it possible to have a Shardblade at a lower level?
   • Maybe something else?

I think I'm inclined to assume #5 at the moment... Maybe with a bit of #4 going on as well...?

I have another option based on this WoB:

Quote

enceladus_47

Does Shallan's "I killed my spren" count as a truth?

Brandon Sanderson

I'm gonna leave up to theorizing, figuring out the timeline that's going on with Shallan. What we can say is that Shallan is reconstructing, in many cases, oaths she has said before. And it is working slightly differently than someone who is saying new oaths. And indeed, saying she killed her spren is one of those steps. I'll leave it to you to try and parse through that. It's actually pretty complicated. We have a nice big page explaining all of this stuff internally, to make sure that we're keeping it all straight. Because she has violated oaths and reconstructed them, is basically what's happening. And she is regressing, and she's doing a... 1.1 steps forward, 1 step back, sort of thing, kind of frequently.

YouTube Livestream 23 (Dec. 17, 2020)

First, I agree that the Truth "I'm terrified" was not Shallan's first Truth to Pattern. The voice in both the normal audiobook and the Graphic Audio production is much different than Pattern when he's in the Physical Realm or the Cognitive. The Graphic Audio is especially particular about getting voices consistent even if they need to recast someone due to the unavailability a voice actor. It's not definitive, but I do think it's a good indication. The text itself describes the voices differently too I believe. 

Second, I also have a slightly different interpretation of how Shallan uses Testament in WoR. I think when she killed Tyn and when she encounters Taln, Testament is in her deadblade form, no different from an ordinary person using a deadeye Blade. But, when she changes the Blade's shape in the chasm and when she activates the Oathgate, Shallan is momentarily reviving her Truths spoken to Testament and the Shardblade acts as a true Radiant Blade. Shallan herself told Kaladin in the chasm that she can just take her bad thoughts and memories and shove it into a deep inaccessible part of her mind. So, per the WoB where Brandon says she's taking 1.1 step forward and 1 step back, I think she's momentarily acknowledging her Truths. I believe in the chasm, she was being deeply introspective and open with someone about her past for the first time in a very long time. So, the ability to change the shape of the Shardblade came easily, the Truth of her past was closer to the surface of her mind. In the case of the Oathgate, she saw that Renarin's Shardblade wasn't going to work. She knew that there was something wrong with all Shardblades, she said as much out loud, and she reasoned out that a living one would work. When Kaladin revived Syl, she said that she was only as dead as his Oaths, which means Testament is only as dead as the Truths Shallan spoke to her. So, that leads me to believe that Shallan is using her ability to tuck things away in her mind to bury those Truths and bringing them up in the moments she needs to have the advantages of a living Shardblade.

If true, it puts certain things in OB into a different context. Once she spoke the Truth of killing her mother to Pattern, she could now summon a living Shardblade without acknowledging her Truths to Testament. But, now she has to deal with the Truth of killing her mother which is also painful and she associated wielding a Shardblade with both killing her mother and killing Testament. That tangle caused her to have that mini panic attack when Adolin insisted she train with her Shardblade. Which resulted in her creating Radiant, a persona that didn't have the memory of killing Testament, so she was able to wield the Blade without smothering the Truth that she killed her mother while keeping the Truth of killing Testament buried.