Can we talk about Adolin?

[---]

So, something that felt a tad bit off to me during my readthrough was Adolin's character in this book. I still can't quite figure out why, but-

In RoW, it shows us Adolin, who seems to be finally free of his father's expectations. My question is...where did that come from? In the past books did he feel....insignificant? or unworthy? or....I can't find the right word, but did he feel like he kept needing to prove himself? Prove that he was the Blackthorn's son and was as good as his father? He seemed to always be okay with doing his own thing in the books- even ashamed of Dalinar in the beginning.

My other thing is- I know that there's (er...jokes? Speculation? ...Fanfiction? :P) about Adolin being Odiums champion, and Adolin becoming a Knight Radiant, but it kind of made me think. In Oathbringer he admits to killing Sadeas, and he isn't sad about it- he felt it needed to be done, and was glad Sadeas was gone, right? This (first of all) isn't exactly following the "Journey before Destination" to me. This reminds me more of Moash, and how Moash killed Elhokar - Yes, for revenge,- but he also convinced himself that it was for the best. Adolin killed Sadead because he knew that Sadeas would be coming after them again and again, but there definitely was revenge in there too. 

I guess... I guess I've rambled a bit. Just had some thoughts on Adolin and...thought to share? hm?

[Kingsdaughter613]

There are plenty of Radiant Orders who would have been fine with what Adolin did.

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, Illwei said:

So, something that felt a tad bit off to me during my readthrough was Adolin's character in this book. I still can't quite figure out why, but-

In RoW, it shows us Adolin, who seems to be finally free of his father's expectations. My question is...where did that come from? In the past books did he feel....insignificant? or unworthy? or....I can't find the right word, but did he feel like he kept needing to prove himself? Prove that he was the Blackthorn's son and was as good as his father? He seemed to always be okay with doing his own thing in the books- even ashamed of Dalinar in the beginning.

The man has spent a year seeing his cousin running around in Plate. His wife is working undercover and a basically unkillable secret agent woman. His father wields the power of a god. His home land is occupied. He has not changed. What did you expect of a man trained to rule and defend his country from the days he started to walk?

He has failed. He may not be to blame personally, but he has failed. And he has failed due to personal loyalty.

[Sparks]

On 11/19/2020 at 1:01 AM, Illwei said:

So, something that felt a tad bit off to me during my readthrough was Adolin's character in this book. I still can't quite figure out why, but-

In RoW, it shows us Adolin, who seems to be finally free of his father's expectations. My question is...where did that come from? In the past books did he feel....insignificant? or unworthy? or....I can't find the right word, but did he feel like he kept needing to prove himself? Prove that he was the Blackthorn's son and was as good as his father? He seemed to always be okay with doing his own thing in the books- even ashamed of Dalinar in the beginning.

My other thing is- I know that there's (er...jokes? Speculation? ...Fanfiction? :P) about Adolin being Odiums champion, and Adolin becoming a Knight Radiant, but it kind of made me think. In Oathbringer he admits to killing Sadeas, and he isn't sad about it- he felt it needed to be done, and was glad Sadeas was gone, right? This (first of all) isn't exactly following the "Journey before Destination" to me. This reminds me more of Moash, and how Moash killed Elhokar - Yes, for revenge,- but he also convinced himself that it was for the best. Adolin killed Sadead because he knew that Sadeas would be coming after them again and again, but there definitely was revenge in there too. 

I guess... I guess I've rambled a bit. Just had some thoughts on Adolin and...thought to share? hm?

The difference is the book Oathbringer (in universe).  Adolin has always known that Dalinar has been flawed - as an absent father, as the violent Blackthorn, as the raging drunkard.  Some of that Adolin has chalked up previously to flawed Alethi ideals about masculinity.  But Adolin has also looked up to and idolized Dalinar as a great man who always looked out for his family, his followers, and his friends, which made him morally superior in Adolin's eyes to the other Alethi.

Dalinar's admission that he killed Evi shatters so much of Adolin's world.  And not only that - Dalinar killed innocents and the blameless.  It's implied that Evi raised Adolin to be better than Alethi society, and after Evi's death, Dalinar continued that, first in Evi's name and then after Gavilar died, in the name of Nohadon.  Evi and Dalinar succeeded, but at the expense of Adolin's horror at Dalinar's admissions and the rift it has caused.  Adolin spends much of tWoK and WoR wrestling with the idea that Alethi ideals are terrible and his friends and girlfriends in Alethi high society are not who he wants to be.  He makes all that growth, just to find out that his father, in his past, was all of that in spades.

And sure, Adolin understands on some level that Odium and Nergaoul have been corrupting Dalinar for decades, which influenced Dalinar's decisions.  But the wound is fresh and Adolin is going to need a lot of healing to come to terms with it.

[kaellok]

On 11/18/2020 at 11:01 PM, Illwei said:

In RoW, it shows us Adolin, who seems to be finally free of his father's expectations. My question is...where did that come from? In the past books did he feel....insignificant? or unworthy? or....I can't find the right word, but did he feel like he kept needing to prove himself? Prove that he was the Blackthorn's son and was as good as his father? He seemed to always be okay with doing his own thing in the books- even ashamed of Dalinar in the beginning.

Yes, he absolutely did.  Sort of.  There are many sections in WoK where he feels like he is struggling to uphold ideals that are important to Dalinar because they are important to Dalinar, even though Adolin does not necessarily agree.  In WoR, Adolin calls out several times where his father thinks highly of his character and who he is, and Adolin disagrees with the assessment fairly strongly.  That presumption of goodness definitely causes struggle within Adolin, to prove that he is worthy of it.

On 11/18/2020 at 11:01 PM, Illwei said:

In Oathbringer he admits to killing Sadeas, and he isn't sad about it- he felt it needed to be done, and was glad Sadeas was gone, right? This (first of all) isn't exactly following the "Journey before Destination" to me. This reminds me more of Moash, and how Moash killed Elhokar - Yes, for revenge,- but he also convinced himself that it was for the best. Adolin killed Sadead because he knew that Sadeas would be coming after them again and again, but there definitely was revenge in there too. 

Moash spent months plotting intricate schemes to assassinate the sitting ruler of a nation, despite knowing what happened that last time that occurred and the chaos brewing in the world in general as the Assassin In White began attacking again.  Adolin stabbed someone in the eye after they made very credible threats to slowly grind down and kill everything and everyone he had ever known and loved.

There was a part of Adolin that was motivated by revenge, sure, that small part that was amused at the panic in Sadeas's face as he began to die.  Mostly, though, he was angry and furious and knew that Sadeas's attacks would.  Never.  Stop.  And so, much like Jasnah provoked the criminals in the alleyway and then Transformed them into fire and crystal and smoke in order to end a threat that the local society could or would not, Adolin murdered Sadeas to put an end to him.

But literally the entire motivation for Moash was revenge.  Nothing else.  He tries saying it's for justice, Kaladin calls him out for it, and Moash agrees with the assessment. 

[Greywatch]

On 11/19/2020 at 1:01 AM, Illwei said:

In RoW, it shows us Adolin, who seems to be finally free of his father's expectations. My question is...where did that come from? In the past books did he feel....insignificant? or unworthy? or....I can't find the right word, but did he feel like he kept needing to prove himself? Prove that he was the Blackthorn's son and was as good as his father? He seemed to always be okay with doing his own thing in the books- even ashamed of Dalinar in the beginning.

 

Yep, since WoK. This aspect of Adolin has truly been the strongest throughline of Adolin's character - his entire characterization almost completely revolved around reflecting and challenging his father in that first book. His insecurity at not being able to match up to his father's expectations/perception of him has been around in every book leading up to now.

[+Oltux72]

18 hours ago, Sparks said:

And sure, Adolin understands on some level that Odium and Nergaoul have been corrupting Dalinar for decades, which influenced Dalinar's decisions.  But the wound is fresh and Adolin is going to need a lot of healing to come to terms with it.

He and his father don't match that much. At the very core the man would like to create. It peeked out when he got out that designed uniform. He chose the form of combat that is most like an art form. His father does fundamentally not understand his sons. Renarin likely does not mind, as nobody understands him. But Adolin does mind.

And then you see him disappointed in not becoming Radiant. Which is not a strange idea. Even Kaladin wonders. And the reason is obvious: Mayalaran
He could cast her aside. Abandon a friend. What is not to be done. Adolin is an Alethi man in that regard. You do not abandon a friend. Period. And so his father taught him. Yet the same father tells him to man up and get a spren.
That is different from earlier conflicts. When they clashed about the vision, Dalinar chaffed, but he basically approved. His sonn did his duty. A disagreeable, cruel duty, but duty. When they conflicted about Sadeas, Adolin was vindicated. When he killed Sadeas, basic Alethi mores backed him up. He killed an enemy. You may quibble about methods and circumstances, but the basic act is laudable.
Yet now his wife is wearing the takama in their marriage (well, the Veden version thereof)

I have to reject the idea that a new wound was hewn that just needs time to heal. Things are actively worsening between him and his father. And making him a High Prince of a realm existing only on paper and in exile does not really help. His cousing putting an axe at the roots of aristocracy does not help either.

His future? Obviously it depends on external factors. It is quite possible that Dalinar will die in a week. (Ironic that his future is foremost defined by his father's survival). In that case all bets are off.
The man needs a family, meaning children. Secondly spatial distance from his father. It would be best for him to take an ambassadorship or go exploring. He is uniquely suited for that among the Kholin family.

[Diomedes]

On 19.11.2020 at 9:05 AM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

There are plenty of Radiant Orders who would have been fine with what Adolin did.

The Skybreakers also did join Odium, that a Radiant order was OK with it does not mean anything. I`d also like to point out that Mraize referencred Sadeas murder as necessary while he was trying to convince Shallan to murder the Herald. Sanderson still throws some shade on that murder.

 I`d like to know about your opinions on Radiant killing Ialai, was that necessary too?

@Oltux72 "When he killed Sadeas, basic Alethi mores backed him up." They also backed up Dalinar commiting war crimes. Alethi codes of conduct are somewhat amoral. 

I felt a bit disappointed about Adolin this book. He has become an almost perfect character, which he was not before, I do not see, where this came from.  I could almost hear @DeployParachute sigh with disappointment at that arc. 

Edited November 21, 2020 by Diomedes

[Stormfather's Beard]

1 hour ago, Diomedes said:

The Skybreakers also did join Odium, that a Radiant order was OK with it does not mean anything. I`d also like to point out that Mraize referencred Sadeas murder as necessary while he was trying to convince Shallan to murder the Herald. Sanderson still throws some shade on that murder.

 I`d like to know about your opinions on Radiant killing Ialai, was that necessary too?

@Oltux72 "When he killed Sadeas, basic Alethi mores backed him up." They also backed up Dalinar commiting war crimes. Alethi codes of conduct are somewhat amoral. 

I felt a bit disappointed about Adolin this book. He has become an almost perfect character, which he was not before, I do not see, where this came from.  I could almost hear @DeployParachute sigh with disappointment at that arc. 

Ugh honestly, Adolin feels like he is made of plot armour right now. We need a way to sort out the honourspren - send Adolin (despite not being used as an ambassador *ever* before), We need a way to figure out how to undermine the importance of the Recreance - its ok, Adolin's so great his partially revived spren will do it. We need Shallan to "git good" - ok, make her fall for Amazing Adolin and it'll all work out. 

I *liked* Adolin before. I didn't love him, but he was alright - i liked how ordinary he felt most of his POVs. But an ordinary man, no matter how skilled, does not easily take down 14 men at once, fix DID, *and* argue a legal case in a foreign legal system. One of these alone might be problematic, all of them borders on the farcical. So Adolin is no longer an ordinary "everyman". He actually feels a bit Mary-Sue-ish because the only time we see real fear or anger in in relation to Dalinar and it only happens once.  I want to see him face some consequences for the murder of Sadeas, not so much because he killed the man, but because he knows it was wrong (which is why he tried to hide it).  Also, he fantasises about it multiple times which is beyond creepy - its downright scary. 

I also feel he has dragged Shallan (as Radiant) down with him. Arguably, prior to killing Ialai, she had only killed in self-defence, but now she hasn't. It worries me that he is a bad influence although in fairness, she is as bad for him because she seems happy to encourage him to avoid responsibility. Shallan felt broken in this book. She no longer reads like OSDD to me, despite Sanderson claiming he dug into DSM-5. 

[TheHidelSubldies]

Adolin's conversation with Dalinar before his departure for Shadesmar left me feeling somewhat hopeful. Much like Kaladin, he's having a difficult time communicating with his father, but sadly there wasn't much of a resolution in this particular father and son dynamic. He's still very capable and easy to like, but whatever struggles or difficulties he's having are either only mentioned briefly or resolved off-screen. I get that he's more a side character but frankly side characters with less page time than Adolin feel more layered and developed at this point (bridge four for example). There's potential for some great moments of character development and growth but BS never seems to fully utilise those when it comes to Adolin which I think is a shame.

Him reviving Maya was a powerful moment but again it felt less like Adoiln's arc and more like Maya's which isn't necessarily a bad thing but just another example of missed opportunities
In fact the whole Shadesmar section feels completely detached from the main plot of the book, so much so that if someone told me that the Shadesmar segment was originally meant to be a standalone novella I would believe it.

[kaellok]

17 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

The man needs a family, meaning children.

10,000% agree with the bolded part.  Infinity% disagree with the italicized.  You can have family without children; you can have children without having family.  People should not have children in order to make a family, they should make a family in order to have children. 

2 hours ago, TheHidelSubldies said:

In fact the whole Shadesmar section feels completely detached from the main plot of the book, so much so that if someone told me that the Shadesmar segment was originally meant to be a standalone novella I would believe it.

After deleting three separate rants, I'll limit my words to "I concur."

[Hayama]

5 hours ago, TheHidelSubldies said:

In fact the whole Shadesmar section feels completely detached from the main plot of the book, so much so that if someone told me that the Shadesmar segment was originally meant to be a standalone novella I would believe it.

I did keep waiting for it to tie in to what was happening in the Physical Realm. I thought maybe Dalinar going to Tukar, which is where the honorspren fortress is in Shadesmar, would tie in somehow. I think we got a little spoiled by the events of Oathbringer in that regard. Still, it will have big implications in the next book, obviously, and luckily everything else was so damn good that I don't mind too much.

[+Oltux72]

3 hours ago, kaellok said:

10,000% agree with the bolded part.  Infinity% disagree with the italicized.  You can have family without children; you can have children without having family.  People should not have children in order to make a family, they should make a family in order to have children. 

I am afraid I will have to point out that the definition of family is highly a variable cultural feature. Adolin is a member of a preindustrial warrior culture. They happen to be monogamous. But that they see a family without children as complete is quite unlikely. And his views are relevant discussing his needs.

 

[theTruthshaper]

I mean, I really, really don't get why people think killing Sadeas was wrong. And this even though I am nearly as big a pacifist as Lirin. If Sadeas would have been left alive, he would have caused the deaths of thousands of people. Not killing him would have been wrong.

Edited November 22, 2020 by The_Truthwatcher

[Stormfather's Beard]

2 hours ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

I mean, I really, really don't get why people think killing Sadeas was wrong. And this even though I am nearly as big a pacifist as Lirin. If Sadeas would have been left alive, he would have caused the deaths of thousands of people. Not killing him would have been wrong.

It is wrong because you *cannot assume what his behaviour would have been*. Who knows - he might have changed. Adolin took it upon himself to stop Sadeas from being able to redeem himself. We have seen redemption already in this book. Imagine if Dalinar had just been killed after Rathelas because of his acions. He has certainly killed hundred since then too. Arguably his death was also fully justified if you think Sadeas's was justified.

Also, last I checked, we agree in a concept called justice. It is wrong for one person to administer "justice" because it cannot be blind - Adolin acted in vengeance not justice. There is a reason we use systems where the victim of a crime is not the arbiter of justice for the crime's perpetrator. 

[kaellok]

22 minutes ago, Stormfather's Beard said:

It is wrong because you *cannot assume what his behaviour would have been*. Who knows - he might have changed. Adolin took it upon himself to stop Sadeas from being able to redeem himself. We have seen redemption already in this book. Imagine if Dalinar had just been killed after Rathelas because of his acions. He has certainly killed hundred since then too. Arguably his death was also fully justified if you think Sadeas's was justified.

Also, last I checked, we agree in a concept called justice. It is wrong for one person to administer "justice" because it cannot be blind - Adolin acted in vengeance not justice. There is a reason we use systems where the victim of a crime is not the arbiter of justice for the crime's perpetrator. 

I think that we can look at Sadeas's track record, his own statements for his plans, and how easy it was for his entire army to be turned to Odium (a feat which seemingly had not occurred before, given the shock from the Fused) to extrapolate that a living Sadeas would have caused more harm than good.

I think that the biggest argument to be made that it was something wrong is that Adolin, who perpetrated the murder, thought it was wrong and sought to hide from the action instead of reporting it openly.

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

I am afraid I will have to point out that the definition of family is highly a variable cultural feature. Adolin is a member of a preindustrial warrior culture. They happen to be monogamous. But that they see a family without children as complete is quite unlikely. And his views are relevant discussing his needs.

I'm sure that there's a lot of people that lived hard, resentful lives filled with terrible childhoods on Roshar if they are required to have children to be considered a family.  Children can be the point and even expected, in no way am I saying anything against that; I'm literally saying that having children tends to exacerbate preexisting problems and issues in relationships, while also causing new ones.  Anyone thinking of having children to somehow make themselves feel whole or better is going to be stacking the odds in favor of that child having an awful, awful childhood.  That's something that doesn't depend on society, culture or time period.  If Adolin somehow feels he needs children in order to be complete (which isn't something that I've seen even vaguely hinted at anywhere in the book other than a line or three across 4000+ pages about he might need an heir someday), then I hope that Shallan can maybe suggest he take part in Kaladin's new Mental Health Initiative to find out what's really going on and get that addressed instead.

[Stormfather's Beard]

1 minute ago, kaellok said:

I think that we can look at Sadeas's track record, his own statements for his plans, and how easy it was for his entire army to be turned to Odium (a feat which seemingly had not occurred before, given the shock from the Fused) to extrapolate that a living Sadeas would have caused more harm than good.

I think that the biggest argument to be made that it was something wrong is that Adolin, who perpetrated the murder, thought it was wrong and sought to hide from the action instead of reporting it openly.

 

Like I said, Dalinar's track record was arguably worse than Sadeas' - yet Dalinar had the opportunity to redeem himself. And if someone who commits war crimes can do it, arguably anyone can. For me, the problem doesn't actually come from the fact of Adolin killing Sadeas per se, but the premeditation elements (he fantasises about it multiple times before the event) and the fact he hides it after the event. We see people kill all the time in these books and sometimes those deaths are right, some are necessary, some are shameful. I would put this in the third of those personally, again not because of the fact of the death (a snap decision under physical threat, on the battlefield, or in a duel for example would not automatically be shameful) but because of the context it occurs in.

As a point I strongly agree with your point re family - Shallan is probably not in a place to handle motherhood well right now - how well would she attach to a baby that Shallan perceives as hers but Radiant *doesn't*? That being said, Shallan was a complete mess in this book - Formless makes no sense to me in the context of Shallan's likely diagnosis coming out of OB (OSDD-type1b) so who knows. She isn't the only character to have been somewhat shafted by this book -arguably Kaladin, Jasnah, Shallan *and* Adolin all have their personalities undermined within the plot.

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, kaellok said:

I'm sure that there's a lot of people that lived hard, resentful lives filled with terrible childhoods on Roshar if they are required to have children to be considered a family. 

That is a given for any number of reasons. Life in preindustrial times was hard. Many of the people are even slaves or serfs. People there do not care that much about happiness. Survival is the issue.

1 hour ago, kaellok said:

Children can be the point and even expected, in no way am I saying anything against that; I'm literally saying that having children tends to exacerbate preexisting problems and issues in relationships, while also causing new ones.

Rosharans usually do not have relationships. They have marriages. Yes, they do have love. But Laral is instructive for how their marriages function.

1 hour ago, kaellok said:

  Anyone thinking of having children to somehow make themselves feel whole or better is going to be stacking the odds in favor of that child having an awful, awful childhood.  That's something that doesn't depend on society, culture or time period.  If Adolin somehow feels he needs children in order to be complete (which isn't something that I've seen even vaguely hinted at anywhere in the book other than a line or three across 4000+ pages about he might need an heir someday), then I hope that Shallan can maybe suggest he take part in Kaladin's new Mental Health Initiative to find out what's really going on and get that addressed instead.

Shallan is an aristocrat marrying an heir of a princely family. She understands her duty. Looking at this from a modern western perspective is uselessly anachronistic.

[Argel]

Killing Sadeas fits in with Alethi culture and the general Rosharan setting. Sadeas was boasting about the the crimes he planned to commit, which is what set Adolin off. There's nothing hypothetical about that. The only damning thing about the incident is Adolin losing his temper.

Shallan was the one that volunteered to go to the Honorspren. Adolin naturally volunteered after that.  And the job was to deliver the message, to start a dialog to rebuild the relationship, not to be a full on ambassador. It was Adolin that took it upon himself to do more, because he didn't want to return a failure to his father yet again.  Plus sending Adolin made sense since he had been to Shadesmar before plus has ties to Dalinar and Jasnah. Plus if Shallan was going, he pretty much had to go. 

And he wasn't some legal genius -- he was destined to lose the trial without outside intervention. It was Blended that convinced the prosecution to call Maya as a witness, after she had looked up Maya's name, that lent considerable credibility to Adolin's claim that Maya told him her name.  It wasn't trial brilliance on Adolin's part.   

I think Brandon is channeling the "innate optimism" he talked about on his YouTube channel through Adolin, and is trying to show that good people can do good things. And maybe that a generally good person can still be an interesting (enough) character.

We'll have to see what comes next. The Shadesmar events may have significant ramifications in future books. Maybe in the back 5 books even.

 

[ftl]

13 hours ago, Stormfather's Beard said:

It is wrong because you *cannot assume what his behaviour would have been*.

He literally - in that very conversation - said that he was going to keep trying to kill Dalinar.

The conversation went like

Adolin: "Hey, we can get past our squabbles now, right?"

Sadeas: "Nope, it's either me or Dalinar, one of us is gonna die"

Adolin: "OK, I choose you"

 

What, do you think being good would have required Adolin to say "yep, you're gonna try to kill me and my dad, I just have to let you take that shot, and then another and another and another?"

13 hours ago, Stormfather's Beard said:

Who knows - he might have changed. Adolin took it upon himself to stop Sadeas from being able to redeem himself. We have seen redemption already in this book. Imagine if Dalinar had just been killed after Rathelas because of his acions. He has certainly killed hundred since then too. Arguably his death was also fully justified if you think Sadeas's was justified.

Well, yeah, obviously! If the ambush in Rathalas had successfully killed Dalinar, nobody would have been saying that was wrong. And it wouldn't have been!

13 hours ago, Stormfather's Beard said:

Also, last I checked, we agree in a concept called justice.

There is no justice system in Alethkar or Urithiru that would lead to convicting a highprince, of anything. 

We saw that with Amaram, by the way. Dalinar proved Amaram had lied, stolen a shardblade, killed Kaladin's crew. And then Amaram walked away. Because the options are were for Dalinar to kill him right then and there, or nothing at all. (Well, the third option is to play politics and try to get someone else to kill him. None of these have anything to do with justice.)

13 hours ago, Stormfather's Beard said:

It is wrong for one person to administer "justice" because it cannot be blind - Adolin acted in vengeance not justice. There is a reason we use systems where the victim of a crime is not the arbiter of justice for the crime's perpetrator. 

Adolin did not do it out of vengeance - he did it out of self defense. It wasn't as retribution for past crimes, it was Sadeas literally telling him "I'm going to kill Dalinar, and there's nothing you can do about it" and Adolin realizing yes, he can, this is the one thing he can actually do to prevent Sadeas from killing Dalinar.

[Kingsdaughter613]

Just to note: in Judaism killing Sadeas would not only have been okay - it would have fulfilled a positive commandment! “If someone is coming to kill you, kill him first.” (B. Sanhedrin, 72a) Different cultures have VERY different opinions on what is honorable.

Edited November 23, 2020 by Kingsdaughter613