Ramona Tehradin

Vyre Hate Thread [Support]

36 posts in this topic

DO IT! POUR IT ALL OUT HERE. 

Earlier I thought this 'Voidbringer' would come around but now, uh, no way I would see that happening anytime. But the way he talks about plans to Odium, something is really unsettling about him. Anyway hate him with Damnation's name. 

This man can only be redeemed in form of death. 

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Blindness is too good for him. Death is too good for him. Being stuck on Braize forever with no company but Taravodium and the occasional ghosts of people he's killed popping in to say "You suck. Bye!" is too good for him. I was ambivalent about him even up to Oathbringer, but now I unreservedly hate him. Hate him. I might have to ascend to Odium myself just to properly express how I loath Vyre.

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I almost felt like it was a deliberate pile on... like it was almost gratuitous. Elhokar was one thing, he was only slightly coming round by the end, but Teft? After he stayed to help Kaladin at the tower? And when Teft was close to the 4th Ideal too? And to kill Phendorana as well as him? Egregious. Absolutely vile.

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All nuance was sucked out of the character.  The book was trying so hard to make me despise him that it felt kind of forced.

Edited by Subvisual Haze
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He's the worst ever. I hate him more than Amaram, I hate him more than Sadaes, I hate him more than Friggen' Taravangean/Odium.

He deserves every bad thing.  He doesn't deserve redemption, especially after this last book.  He didn't regret killing Teft, he regretted the pain, he didn't regret what it did to Kaladin and Bridge 4.  He is an absolute monster.

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1 hour ago, Subvisual Haze said:

All nuance was sucked out of the character.  The book was trying to hard to make me despise him that it felt kind of forced.

I feel that this was deliberate. I believe that we are expected to perceive him this way. Brandon has shown way too much growth in his writing ability to do something this obvious without reason. I would be very curious about Brandon’s answer to someone asking a question about how Vyre was written.

With that said, STORM THAT EVIL, EVIL THING!

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I want to invest Moash then kill him then imprison him in a gemstone then leave that in a sibling style suppression field until the cosmere's last star burns out.  That will be a decent start in paying for what he did.

Edited by Karger
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6 hours ago, Chaos said:

I've added a [Support] topic tag to this. You can see more here: https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/93197-introducing-topic-tags-support-and-discuss/

Given the OP, I think this was a good time to use it :) If you would prefer it to not have the tag, just let me know. It seemed appropriate here.

Yeah that's great! Thanks!

Edited by Ramona Tehradin
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8 hours ago, Chaos said:

I've added a [Support] topic tag to this. You can see more here: https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/93197-introducing-topic-tags-support-and-discuss/

Given the OP, I think this was a good time to use it :) If you would prefer it to not have the tag, just let me know. It seemed appropriate here.

I think the (Support) tag is unnecessary, as after RoW everyone hates Moash -there isn't anything to criticise. ;)

I much enjoyed his miserable send off at the end - it tops the one in WoR. That said, I think that he's going to have to have some kind of redemption otherwise it's bad writing. Oh well...

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On 11/18/2020 at 1:46 PM, Necessary Eagle said:

Blindness is too good for him

I will say I do like the symmetry of him stabbing Elhokar in the eye and now being blind seems like a nice balancing of the scales but I will agree that eventually he needs a little more awful treatment.

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On 11/19/2020 at 3:00 AM, ALAKA said:

I think the (Support) tag is unnecessary, as after RoW everyone hates Moash -there isn't anything to criticise. ;)

I still don't hate Moash. Not completely at least.

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Fine, I hate Moash now, but I'm not gonna like it.

I hate that a character that was at one point a sympathetic and complex villain is now just a 2D comic book monster, with no other purpose than tormenting Kladin.

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Spoiler

FB_IMG_1563251439384.jpg.85e2204a09dbbe498d32d8b8f7c09d3e.jpg

Over and over and over....

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Moash was cool even after Elhokar. But now .....fine I guess he deserves it. 

I still think you ppl are cremlings for hating him even before u had good reason to.

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On 11/20/2020 at 10:57 PM, LuckyJim said:

Fine, I hate Moash now, but I'm not gonna like it.

I hate that a character that was at one point a sympathetic and complex villain is now just a 2D comic book monster, with no other purpose than tormenting Kladin.

I suspect that's the result of spending an entire year with his emotions handed over to Odium.

I wonder what would happen if his Bond to Odium got cut and stayed cut for a long amount of time, whether he'd get some of his humanity back. If he didn't commit suicide or simply go insane, which would probably be more likely outcomes.

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On 11/20/2020 at 8:57 PM, LuckyJim said:

Fine, I hate Moash now, but I'm not gonna like it.

I hate that a character that was at one point a sympathetic and complex villain is now just a 2D comic book monster, with no other purpose than tormenting Kladin.

Yes! Oathbringer made him really interesting, and his descent into apathy was relatable. I was curious about his destiny. Now, he's just weird and crazy  - like, deifying Kaladin and ordering Fused and being basically psychotic. Like he's basically Heath Ledgerman's Joker...

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I don't really hate him... he is more pathetic and loathsome in my book. But sure, he is a little piece of crem. I'd argue that much of it is due to Odiums influence though. Moash is just like the Fused in that he is completely owned by Odium, and has been molded and shaped accoordingly. 

But yes, defenitely a despicable piece of dung. 

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On 11/18/2020 at 4:13 PM, Subvisual Haze said:

All nuance was sucked out of the character.  The book was trying so hard to make me despise him that it felt kind of forced.

Wasn't that the point though? Odium sucked all the nuance out of him. He was dead inside except his obsession with Kal.

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1 hour ago, Necessary Eagle said:

I suspect that's the result of spending an entire year with his emotions handed over to Odium.

I wonder what would happen if his Bond to Odium got cut and stayed cut for a long amount of time, whether he'd get some of his humanity back. If he didn't commit suicide or simply go insane, which would probably be more likely outcomes.

That could be interesting, but I have to wonder what would even be the point of doing that now? Even if he got clarity and could resist Odium, where would he go? He can't go back to the humans, both because they wouldn't take him back, and there's no real reason he would want to in the first place, so it's not like he can really do anything other than continue serving Odium. It seems pretty clear at this point that he's just meant to be a vile and despicable character with no redeeming qualities, considering after he gains some clarity after killing Teft, he feels worse for himself than for Teft. That is kind of jarring in a series where even characters like Raboniel and Sadeas are given moments to show a more sympathetic and caring side to them.

My main concern, and the reason I really hate the direction his character has gone, is because I feel like he was written this way to simplify the lighteye/darkyeye conflict and avoid making lighteyed characters less likeable for not really opposing the system. It feels like his arc and position as a foil to Kaladin is meant to show that you should forgive the people who abuse their power, oppress you and treat your family as expendable because its the right thing to do, and not doing so means going down a path of hatred and "petty" revenge. The best outcome for his character at this point would be redemption through death, or possibly using his bond to Odium in some way to influence the outcome of the conflict, perhaps imprisoning him in some new Oathpact, which is fine but still keeps the whole class conflict thing kinda simple.

I legitimately just want him to die at this point (and before RoW, I was a huge Moash defender) because I don't see his character going anywhere that isn't further disappointment.

Edited by LuckyJim
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22 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Wasn't that the point though? Odium sucked all the nuance out of him. He was dead inside except his obsession with Kal.

It's sad from a meta perspective.  The interesting possibility about Moash to me was the will he/won't he question of whether Brandon would offer him a later arc of redemption.  That's a tricky balancing act though, and I'd argue this book pushed Moash too far past the moral event horizon to make redemption possible.

Oathbringer Moash was interesting because he was such a mess.  He did terrible things, but also snuck in a couple good things to make you think there was still a kernel worth redeeming in his dark heart (standing up for the singer slaves and training them to not die in combat).  He was also a kind of sad and tragic figure, and his thoughts dwelt frequently on the guilt he felt about what he did to Kaladin.  

Now he's just the most terrible person imaginable.  Encouraging your friend to kill themselves is a new level of puppy kicking villain.  You can't even claim "Odium made him do it", because at the very end Odium's connection to Moash is disrupted by the tower.  He's offered a moment of clarity free from Odium's emotion smothering gift.

Quote

And before that, a terrible sound. It had pushed away his Connection to Odium, forcing Moash to feel pain for the things he’d done—pain he didn’t want. Pain he’d given away.

...

“Teft, I…” He couldn’t say it. The words wouldn’t form. He wasn’t sorry for what he’d done. He was only sorry for how his actions made him feel. He didn’t want this pain. He deserved it, yes, but he didn’t want it.

Guilt over what he'd done was the last real potential route Moash had to maybe turning his life around.  And here in quite explicit detail, Brandon is signaling to the reader "this person isn't worthy of any sympathy, go ahead and take delight in his suffering."

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This is a detail that made me hate Moash even more:

While Kaladin was swearing the his 4th Ideal, he hears a voice that isn't identified by the narrator:

Quote

Say it, lad! Do it!

Since this person refers to Kaladin as "lad", it's clearly meant to be Teft. The easiest conclusion to make is that this is a Spiritual echo, much like Tien or Evi. However, after I read the final Eshonai flashback I had a bit of hope.

What if it was Teft's cognitive shadow? This scene did take place within minutes of Teft's death, so it seems possible. Teft was Radiant, so he died with enough investure... except he didn't. Because Moash killed Phendorana first. Teft did not die Radiant.

I'm not saying that Phendorana's death wasn't already tragic. But Teft's death had overshadowed it until I realized this. Teft should have been there to see Kaladin swear his Ideal. He deserved it. Perhaps he would have also been granted a final mercy by the Stormfather, and been allowed to fly with the storm. One last time.

But Storming Moash couldn't even let him have that.

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Killing Phendorana wouldn't have retroactively negated Teft's cognitive self from being invested in Stormlight.

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3 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Killing Phendorana wouldn't have retroactively negated Teft's cognitive self from being invested in Stormlight.

Wait, really? HOPE LIVES!

Now that you mention it, Kelsier became a shadow after letting go of a shard's power, so I see where you're coming from. But I don't think I know enough to say for sure if this applies entirely to Teft.

I really hope it does, if it means Teft passed on knowing that Kaladin was doing alright.

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I would like to note that there’s actually 2 kinds of Moash hate in this thread, and they definitely aren’t created equal. 

Group 1 is all of the people who hate Moash in-world. They hate the character for all the awful things he’s done. 

Group 2 is all of the people who hate Moash from a writing perspective. They think he’s a flat character, not interesting. They feel like the Group 1 type hatred is fake and forced. 

So there are actually 2 nearly opposite opinions here, despite seeming like we’re all in agreement. 
At least we all know which group is right. ;)

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