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RoW Spoilers Post-Chapter 113 for Taravangian


spitfireky

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On 11/18/2020 at 0:46 PM, spitfireky said:

Soooo what are we calling Mr. T now? Taravandium? Vargodium? Toadium?

Of those I'd say "Vargodium" sounds best, though maybe it's getting a bit familiar with the nickname, eh?

Also, I re-read that passage where he Ascends, and he dies - feeling the snap of the severing of his soul as his physical body died - even as Nightblood is busy severing Rayse the Vessel from the Shard Odium. And only after that, does the released Shard decide - or feel - that Taravangian is "perfect".

Doesn't that mean Taravangian-Odium - Vargodium - is more akin to Kelsier-as-Preservation in Secret History? A Cognitive Shadow that managed to Ascend?

"A memory of a man holding the power will never be as potent as a real one with ties to all three Realms!"

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37 minutes ago, robardin said:

Also, I re-read that passage where he Ascends, and he dies - feeling the snap of the severing of his soul as his physical body died - even as Nightblood is busy severing Rayse the Vessel from the Shard Odium. And only after that, does the released Shard decide - or feel - that Taravangian is "perfect".

Doesn't that mean Taravangian-Odium - Vargodium - is more akin to Kelsier-as-Preservation in Secret History? A Cognitive Shadow that managed to Ascend?

"A memory of a man holding the power will never be as potent as a real one with ties to all three Realms!"

Ooh, good catch!

Maybe that was Culti's endgame? Creating a new Odium that was weaker than a regular Odium?

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12 hours ago, robardin said:

Doesn't that mean Taravangian-Odium - Vargodium - is more akin to Kelsier-as-Preservation in Secret History? A Cognitive Shadow that managed to Ascend?

I think he somehow still has Connection to all 3 Realms still.

Maybe because he died directly before Ascending(similar to how a recently dead person could be brought back with regrowth. The power might’ve healed him right before he actually Ascended?)

 

If he had died(and stayed dead) before Ascending, he would’ve left a body behind.

but he didnt. Only Rayse’s corpse remained.

which suggests that Taravangian’s body burnt up when he Ascended.(which means he still is connected to all three realms)

Edited by Eternal Khol
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3 hours ago, Eternal Khol said:

I think he somehow still has Connection to all 3 Realms still.

Maybe because he died directly before Ascending(similar to how a recently dead person could be brought back with regrowth. The power might’ve healed him right before he actually Ascended?)

If he had died(and stayed dead) before Ascending, he would’ve left a body behind.

but he didnt. Only Rayse’s corpse remained.

which suggests that Taravangian’s body burnt up when he Ascended.(which means he still is connected to all three realms)

On the first part, I thought the comparison might be with Szeth - who Zahel, at any rate, views as being similar to himself, as a echo-soul stapled back to a physical body. But hey. He can be wrong!

On the second part, that is a good point - though it is curious how Rayse's corpse exists at all, as Nightblood does not typically leave physical remains when things go poof. That could be a side effect of having drawn and used Nightblood's "Shadesmar manifestation" instead of the physical sword (that itself is astounding in its implications, actually), or some kind of mix of the two - that Rayse's incompletely poofed corpse got switched or merged with Taravangian's ordinary corpse.

I dunno, there are definitely multiple unusual elements going on here, not sure if they all tie into one big ball of surprise or are just different mini-reveals on different topics.

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4 hours ago, robardin said:

though it is curious how Rayse's corpse exists at all, as Nightblood does not typically leave physical remains when things go poof.

Im gonna do my best to try to explain(how I understand it), but this is gonna be a long one(and probably a little confusing) So bear with me XD

 

I think that just has to do with the fact that we’ve never seen Nightblood consume so much Investiture before.(and that while Ascended, a Shard doesnt have a normal “body” to be consumed by Nightblood)

Spoiler

LewsTherinTelescope

In the Liar of Partinel samples, we see fain life is covered in skullmoss (and iirc seems to have it inside them, from a few mentions of eating fain-touched animals being deadly). If a fain being were to Ascend, would their body retain this skullmoss when they drop (I mean, Leras and Ati seemed to retain their clothes, so it wouldn't surprise me), or would it be killed off by the process?

(Actually, I'm curious about this with microorganisms and such in general with Vessels, but the fain life is what made me think of it.)

 

Brandon Sanderson

Imagine the body that drops after a Shard dies being the essence being recreated out of energy. It wasn't there all along--it was absorbed into the power, then drops back out as a kind of husk. But it's not literally the same atoms. There has been some strange E=MC2=Investiture shenanigans going on.

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020)

Something to keep in mind while reading this

-a Vessels body doesn't “reappear” until after they die.

-Whenever I refer to Rayse, I specifically mean the vessel and its mind/body, and when i refer to Odium, im referring to the actual power/Investiture itself.


while Ascended, Rayse’s body(the matter of his body) is “absorbed” into Odiums Investiture, which wasnt all in the room with Tavangian, when he struck. It couldn’t be.

so while Rayse’s mind was in the room with Taravangian, not all of Odiums Investiture(which held Rayse’s body) was there. So effectively, not all of Rayse’s pre-shattering body was present when Taravangian attacked. So when Taravangian used Nightblood on Rayse, it ate all of his mind(or most. which was enough), and then some(not a lot) of Odiums Investiture(where Rayse’s body was being “stored”)

so when Rayse’s body was recreated by Odium’s Investiture(after Rayse died), it did the best it could, but Nightblood had consumed part of Odiums Investiture(which held Rayse’s body), so Rayse’s body came out as partly eaten too, because the Investiture that would later turn into his body, was partly consumed by Nightblood.

And after eating Rayse/Odium, Taravangian remarks how the sword is “full”

so maybe he couldn’t really eat anymore and finish off Odiums body, which would’ve appeared after NB ate Rayse’s mind and some power and was already “full”

 


Feel free to poke holes in it. I wanna know what you think too

 

 

4 hours ago, robardin said:

That could be a side effect of having drawn and used Nightblood's "Shadesmar manifestation" instead of the physical sword (that itself is astounding in its implications, actually)

This is a tricky one.

did he really use Nightbloods Cognitive Manifestation? Because Taravangian(who was in-between realms with Odium) was physically wielding Nightblood when he attacked Odium(but because he was between realms and Nighblood was there. Was NB also between realms?

 Szeth, who was solidly in the physical and didn’t know Odium was there, had to resheath Nightblood after Taravangian’s attack


 what im wondering is... did you need to see Odium there to Attack him. Or be between realms, like Taravangian?

like if Odium showed up but stayed invisible and undetected, would szeth be to kill Odium(the vessel) if he was randomly swinging around an unsheathed Nightblood? xD

Edited by Eternal Khol
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5 hours ago, Eternal Khol said:

This is a tricky one.

did he really use Nightbloods Cognitive Manifestation? Because Taravangian(who was in-between realms with Odium) was physically wielding Nightblood when he attacked Odium(but because he was between realms and Nighblood was there. Was NB also between realms?

 Szeth, who was solidly in the physical and didn’t know Odium was there, had to resheath Nightblood after Taravangian’s attack

 what im wondering is... did you need to see Odium there to Attack him. Or be between realms, like Taravangian?

like if Odium showed up but stayed invisible and undetected, would szeth be to kill Odium(the vessel) if he was randomly swinging around an unsheathed Nightblood? xD

Nice. That's a detail I hadn't noticed.

At the end of Ch. 113, when Odium arrives to accuse Taravangian of conniving with Sja-anat and somehow ruining his plans for taking Kaladin as his champion, he's interrupting a Very Special Moment between him and Szeth:

Quote

Light. That golden light.

"Szeth," Taravangian said, feeling blood on his lips. "Szeth... He is here..."

"I decide now," Szeth said, reaching toward his waist - not for the terrible sword, but for the small knife he was wearing beside it.

and just then, Taravangian is pulled into the bubble of Odiumvision in the Cognitive Realm:

Quote

The Physical Realm faded as Odium pulled Taravangian into the place between worlds. Taravangian's body was not as weak here. This form was a manifestation of his mind and soul. And those were strong.

The sword at Szeth's waist - that strange, terrible sword - manifested here, in this realm where Odium brought Taravangian.The god looked down and saw the curling black darkness, and seemed surprised.

Taravangian seized the sword and pulled it free of its scabbard, hearing it scream for pleasure. He turned and thrust it upward - black smoke curling around his hands. ...

The sword drank greedily of the god's essence, and as it did, Taravangian felt a snap. His body dying. Szeth finishing the job.

And then after the Ascension of Vargodium, in Ch. 114,

Quote

He was aware of what he'd left behind in the mortal realm. Szeth had long since climbed to his feet and sheathed  Nightblood. Beside him, the assassin had found a burned-out corpse, mostly eaten by the sword's attack.

So what to make of this?

It seems incredible that Taravangian could draw Nightblood physically, across the boundaries between the PR and CR, such that Szeth had to resheathe Nightblood in the Physical Realm. I mean, what was it from Szeth's POV? How had he ended up on the floor? He stabbed Taravangian with a regular knife, then Tarvangian went up in smoke and an explosion of light that knocked him off his feet, and when he recovered he saw nothing but a mostly-eaten, burned-out corpse and an unsheathed Nightblood?

I guess so - how else would Cognitive Nightblood have gotten resheathed?

Lots of questions for WoBs and RAFOs are in our future on this one, I'm sure!

 

Edited by robardin
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1 hour ago, robardin said:

How had he ended up on the floor? He stabbed Taravangian with a regular knife, then Tarvangian went up in smoke and an explosion of light that knocked him off his feet, and when he recovered he saw nothing but a mostly-eaten, burned-out corpse and an unsheathed Nightblood?

Thats how i imagined it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited by Eternal Khol
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