Dabbid (Full RoW Spoilers)

[AquaRegia]

I'm very slightly grumpy about EVERYONE becoming Radiant.  When there were literally only three or four people on the entire planet we knew were Radiants, it was special and superhero-y.  It was IMPORTANT.  But now that we're well down the road of every major and minor character (except Adolin, of course) bonding a spren, it's been... cheapened somehow.  Like Syndrome said - "when everyone is super, no one will be."

[Lanaya]

6 hours ago, Quick Ben said:

 

I agree with Frustration, i don't think Navani becoming a bondsmith was foreshadowed in the books

Altho was a widely held theory on here beforehand.

I am in the minority with the view that to be quiet frank, Navani wasn't worthy to become a bondsmith or in actual fact even a radiant at all. Narratively going forward wouldnof been alot more interesting with Rlain or Dabbid bonding the sibling as well, instead get another Kholin, one who spent the entire book colluding with the "enemy"

 

I agree Navani becoming a bondsmith was never explicitly foreshadowed. However, her actions and what people think of her coincides with her becoming one. She literally brings all the scholars together and has them working on different projects with the goal of understanding and progressing fabrial mechanics to better prepare them for Odium. She is well respected by all the coalition members and I think she was the one to lead their first meeting? She is the one that makes things happen in the background and is directly responsible for giving the coalation a tactical advantage with teh flying ship. She may not have created the flying ship herself, but she had a big part in it by uniting the best people and pointing them in the right direction. Her encouragement and willingness to give resources to those who are capable makes her a great bondsmith to me. As a side note, she reminds me of Dockson; Dockson didn't get high praise for what he did but what he did was essential to any of Kelsier's jobs. Given these things + more, it makes too much sense for her to bond the tower spren giving her the ultimate access to the most intricate fabrial.

Edited April 5, 2021 by Lanaya

[Bejarden]

Yes it makes sense that she became the Bondsmith 

But it doesn’t take away from the fact that 2 seconds before Navani bonded the Sibling she was told “she’s not worthy” the Sibling only took the bond out of desperation and necessity.

[Lanaya]

20 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Yes it makes sense that she became the Bondsmith 

But it doesn’t take away from the fact that 2 seconds before Navani bonded the Sibling she was told “she’s not worthy” the Sibling only took the bond out of desperation and necessity.

I think the Sibling wanted someone she could directly control like Dabbid because she thinks humans are too smart for their own good and ask too many questions. IMO, that is what she means when she says Navani is not worthy. 

I think us the audience can conclude she is more than worthy (capability wise) given that she found anti voidlight and was praised highly by possibly the smartest fused. And I agree with your assessment that the sibling took the bond out of necessity but life before death right?

[Bejarden]

30 minutes ago, Lanaya said:

I think the Sibling wanted someone she could directly control like Dabbid because she thinks humans are too smart for their own good and ask too many questions. IMO, that is what she means when she says Navani is not worthy. 

I think us the audience can conclude she is more than worthy (capability wise) given that she found anti voidlight and was praised highly by possibly the smartest fused. And I agree with your assessment that the sibling took the bond out of necessity but life before death right?

I think the sibling wanted someone they could trust and wouldn’t enslave them

imagine there were a race of slavers and then one came over to you and asked to be your friend, they would be suspicious right?

I am really discussing this from a pure narrative standpoint and not story wise so her capabilities are not such a factor 

[Quick Ben]

15 hours ago, Lanaya said:

I agree Navani becoming a bondsmith was never explicitly foreshadowed. However, her actions and what people think of her coincides with her becoming one. She literally brings all the scholars together and has them working on different projects with the goal of understanding and progressing fabrial mechanics to better prepare them for Odium. She is well respected by all the coalition members and I think she was the one to lead their first meeting? She is the one that makes things happen in the background and is directly responsible for giving the coalation a tactical advantage with teh flying ship. She may not have created the flying ship herself, but she had a big part in it by uniting the best people and pointing them in the right direction. Her encouragement and willingness to give resources to those who are capable makes her a great bondsmith to me. As a side note, she reminds me of Dockson; Dockson didn't get high praise for what he did but what he did was essential to any of Kelsier's jobs. Given these things + more, it makes too much sense for her to bond the tower spren giving her the ultimate access to the most intricate fabrial.

Il be honest an say none of the above makes her worthy in my opinion. Again i am undoubtedly in the minority in this view but Navani wasnt worthy.

12 hours ago, Lanaya said:

I think the Sibling wanted someone she could directly control like Dabbid because she thinks humans are too smart for their own good and ask too many questions. IMO, that is what she means when she says Navani is not worthy. 

I think us the audience can conclude she is more than worthy (capability wise) given that she found anti voidlight and was praised highly by possibly the smartest fused. And I agree with your assessment that the sibling took the bond out of necessity but life before death right?

The Sibling actually wanted to bond Rlain, so she didnt want to bond someone she could directly control, she wanted to bond someone she felt she could trust and who was worthy, 

In my opinion bonding Rlain would of made the most narrative sense as well. As would of been the perfect way to bring the listeners who escaped into the fold.

As well as offering a counter point to the Kholin/atleti controlled radiants, instead having Navani bond the Sibling incresses this. 

 

[therunner]

48 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

The Sibling actually wanted to bond Rlain, so she didnt want to bond someone she could directly control, she wanted to bond someone she felt she could trust and who was worthy, 

In my opinion bonding Rlain would of made the most narrative sense as well. As would of been the perfect way to bring the listeners who escaped into the fold.

As well as offering a counter point to the Kholin/atleti controlled radiants, instead having Navani bond the Sibling incresses this. 

 

I personally also wanted Rlain to bond The Sibling, but I think the fact that Radiants are so Kholin/Alethi dominated will become a plot point in the second half of stormlight archive, if not in the fifth book.

After all at this point 2/3 Bondsmits are Kholin, effective heads of 3 orders are Kholin related (Elsecallers, Lightweavers, Windrunners...as Kal is known as the bodyguard of Kholins) and 2 others have prominent Kholin related memebers (Truthwatchers and the lone Skybreaker). If Adolin joins the Edgedancers the Kholin domination will be quite transparent, even if they did not intend it. And I think other nations will be unhappy with this balance of power, especially if the contest leads to tentative peace/cease-fire.

[Quick Ben]

30 minutes ago, therunner said:

I personally also wanted Rlain to bond The Sibling, but I think the fact that Radiants are so Kholin/Alethi dominated will become a plot point in the second half of stormlight archive, if not in the fifth book.

After all at this point 2/3 Bondsmits are Kholin, effective heads of 3 orders are Kholin related (Elsecallers, Lightweavers, Windrunners...as Kal is known as the bodyguard of Kholins) and 2 others have prominent Kholin related memebers (Truthwatchers and the lone Skybreaker). If Adolin joins the Edgedancers the Kholin domination will be quite transparent, even if they did not intend it. And I think other nations will be unhappy with this balance of power, especially if the contest leads to tentative peace/cease-fire.

Yes, sometimes you would wonder why the Stormlight Archive isn't called the Kholin Chronicles, esp as don't forget even Elhokar was on the path to radiance. Only 2 Kholins aren't radiant and Adolin is on to "something new" which will most likely equate to being radiant, and Gavinor is still a child but who knows maybe already radiant, with how easy Kholins become one.

I can see Navani being a bondsmith as becoming an issue like you say as well. Although given hasn't to this point (very few radiants seem to be from anywhere but alethkar) wouldn't surprise me if it didn't become an issue dowm the line either.

[AquaRegia]

On 4/6/2021 at 8:27 AM, Quick Ben said:

Yes, sometimes you would wonder why the Stormlight Archive isn't called the Kholin Chronicles, esp as don't forget even Elhokar was on the path to radiance. Only 2 Kholins aren't radiant and Adolin is on to "something new" which will most likely equate to being radiant, and Gavinor is still a child but who knows maybe already radiant, with how easy Kholins become one.

Just wait until Gavilar shows up in book 5... he was definitely onto something new.  Kholin : Stormlight :: Skywalker : Star Wars  LOL

[Isilel]

On 5.4.2021 at 5:36 PM, AquaRegia said:

I'm very slightly grumpy about EVERYONE becoming Radiant.  When there were literally only three or four people on the entire planet we knew were Radiants, it was special and superhero-y.  It was IMPORTANT. 

 

It has been established from the beginning that the Radiants used to number in the thousands, so their powers being restricted to a handful of people was never in the cards. We also learned in WoR from the epigraphs that the Orders expanded rapidly during the Desolations. It would have also been incredibly cheap and tropy if a small group of inexperienced new Radiants had succeeded where thousands of experienced ones in the past have failed. It is already on the edge of being ludicrous as far as I am concerned, and I don't want it to tip over.

Also, that's why I dislike superheroes - they hoard their abilities so that they can remain very special and very important. Which, by a very convenient coincidence makes them into the arbiters of right and wrong. Funny, that. They say that other people can't be trusted with teh Power, but of course they'd say that, wouldn't they? Those who hold power and don't want to share it always do.

 

On 6.4.2021 at 1:49 PM, therunner said:

After all at this point 2/3 Bondsmits are Kholin, effective heads of 3 orders are Kholin related (Elsecallers, Lightweavers, Windrunners...as Kal is known as the bodyguard of Kholins) and 2 others have prominent Kholin related memebers (Truthwatchers and the lone Skybreaker). If Adolin joins the Edgedancers the Kholin domination will be quite transparent, even if they did not intend it. And I think other nations will be unhappy with this balance of power, especially if the contest leads to tentative peace/cease-fire.

 

I suspect that we'll lose at least one of  Kholin Bondsmiths in book 5. If it is Dalinar, which is most likely, then the Skybreaker connection will fall away. For that matter, in such a case Kaladin will probably become less strongly aligned with Kholins and more independant as well. That's if he doesn't succeed Dalinar as the Stormfather's Bondsmith and bearer of Honor's remaining authority, for which there are  a lot of hints. In such a case, he'd have more political and military power than the remaining Kholins combined. Shallan is not the head of all Lightweavers, just a leader of 2 dozen of them or so. In fact, most Orders likely don't have strict hierarchical organization and a single leader, so Kholins being/becoming members shouldn't matter overly much. But as to the narrative importance, well, the main PoV characters are who they are, and of course they are the ones who are movers and shakers, rather than the tertiary or bit characters.

Personally, I do like observer protagonists, who are not all that important, active or powerful themselves, but provide a window on the characters who are, but this approach has fallen out of style and has never been Sanderson's way of doing things in the first place.

 

On 5.4.2021 at 3:01 PM, Quick Ben said:

 

I agree with Frustration, i don't think Navani becoming a bondsmith was foreshadowed in the books.

Apart from her consistently exhibiting Bondsmithy qualities and attracting gloryspren on at least a couple of occasions? Or beginning to see into Shadesmar in early RoW?

 

Quote

Narratively going forward wouldnof been alot more interesting with Rlain or Dabbid bonding the sibling as well, instead get another Kholin, one who spent the entire book colluding with the "enemy"

Dabbid is a wonderful man, but he has zero commonality with what a Bondsmith is supposed to be. Making him one would have been just a subversion for the sake of subversion and felt completely out of place. He'd make a great Edgedancer, though!

Rlain could have fit very nicely, but he needed to be written as much more independently active in RoW and shown to have worked with artifabrians during the year gap. It had been pretty clear since OB that the Sibling's Bondsmith needed to be into fabrials.

Edited April 7, 2021 by Isilel

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

Apart from her consistently exhibiting Bondsmithy qualities and attracting gloryspren on at least a couple of occasions? Or beginning to see into Shadesmar in early RoW?

Uh no, no she really didn't, and the only time see saw into the CR was when Dalinar did all the work.

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

Rlain could have fit very nicely, but he needed to be written as much more independently active in RoW and shown to have worked with artifabrians during the year gap. It had been pretty clear since OB that the Sibling's Bondsmith needed to be into fabrials.

On the contrary, Navani is the first of the Siblings Bondsmiths to be into Fabrials, so that is not true.

[Isilel]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Uh no, no she really didn't, and the only time see saw into the CR was when Dalinar did all the work.

She was absolutely bringing/keeping people together throughout OB and RoW! Even her interactions with Raboniel were a naive attempt to establish common ground.  I understand that you dislike her character, but text is text. And other non-Radiants saw nothing when Dalinar opened his perpendicularity, but she did, and also heard the tones, of course.

 

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

On the contrary, Navani is the first of the Siblings Bondsmiths to be into Fabrials, so that is not true.

Not true - Melishi designed the protection devices for them, which required knowledge of fabrials. With Sibling being a giant fabrial, it stands to reason that an artifabrian Bondsmith could do much more with it - as Navani indeed proved. In fact, the only reason they had been able to reverse the damage so quickly were Navani's skills and profound understanding of the matter. I wanted Rlain to become a Bondmisth, but his lack of any particular interest in fabrials and civil engineering,  made me peg him for the Nightwatcher's one. Alas... Sanderson could have quickly established that Rlain developed those interests during the gap and let him be more active in the attempts to bridge the divide between singers and humans if he wanted to present him as a serious/better candidate. As is, I wouldn't have found Rlain bonding the Sibling very satisfying. He just didn't accomplish enough to become a Bondsmith. The Sibling only wanted him because of their anti-human prejudice.

I still very much hope that the third Bondsmith is going to be a singer, but I am at loss at who it could be, unless Rlain or one of the new listener Willshapers dual-bonds. I thought that RoW flashbacks would flesh out some of the surviving listeners, but it didn't really happen. Maybe Thude?

[Quick Ben]

5 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

Just wait until Gavilar shows up in book 5... he was definitely onto something new.  Kholin : Stormlight :: Skywalker : Star Wars  LOL

Well definetly won't surprise me when Gavilar shows up, still think the Kholin=radiant is overdone in stormlight, even more so then starwars.

7 minutes ago, Isilel said:

She was absolutely bringing/keeping people together throughout OB and RoW! Even her interactions with Raboniel were a naive attempt to establish common ground.  I understand that you dislike her character, but text is text. And other non-Radiants saw nothing when Dalinar opened his perpendicularity, but she did, and also heard the tones, of course.

 

Her interations with Rabional were colluding with the enemy. Also you seem to be over estimating what Navani has done, in saying she brought people together throughout OB and RoW. 

9 minutes ago, Isilel said:

Not true - Melishi designed the protection devices for them, which required knowledge of fabrials. With Sibling being a giant fabrial, it stands to reason that an artifabrian Bondsmith could do much more with it - as Navani indeed proved. In fact, the only reason they had been able to reverse the damage so quickly were Navani's skills and profound understanding of the matter. I wanted Rlain to become a Bondmisth, but his lack of any particular interest in fabrials and civil engineering,  made me peg him for the Nightwatcher's one. Alas... Sanderson could have quickly established that Rlain developed those interests during the gap and let him be more active in the attempts to bridge the divide between singers and humans if he wanted to present him as a serious/better candidate. As is, I wouldn't have found Rlain bonding the Sibling very satisfying. He just didn't accomplish enough to become a Bondsmith. The Sibling only wanted him because of their anti-human prejudice.

 

Your basis for Navani becoming a bondsmith seems to be her knowledge of fabrials, when even in Urithiru there is many more knowledgeable people in that department. The sibling only bonded Navani because it was that or die, so no matter what way you spin it, Navani wasn't actually worthy of that bond.

Again i don't see why the bondsmith for the sibling would need to be an artifabrian, as they would of gained that knowledge after bonding the sibling in any case. 

 

[Frustration]

17 minutes ago, Isilel said:

She was absolutely bringing/keeping people together throughout OB and RoW! Even her interactions with Raboniel were a naive attempt to establish common ground.  I understand that you dislike her character, but text is text. And other non-Radiants saw nothing when Dalinar opened his perpendicularity, but she did, and also heard the tones, of course.

I have no dislike for Navani but the text does not giver her any actual foreshadowing for a bondsmith. Other non-Radiants also don't spend a ton of time staring at a perpendicularity, and the fact remains Dalinar not Navani did the work.

21 minutes ago, Isilel said:

Not true - Melishi designed the protection devices for them, which required knowledge of fabrials. With Sibling being a giant fabrial, it stands to reason that an artifabrian Bondsmith could do much more with it - as Navani indeed proved. In fact, the only reason they had been able to reverse the damage so quickly were Navani's skills and profound understanding of the matter. I wanted Rlain to become a Bondmisth, but his lack of any particular interest in fabrials and civil engineering,  made me peg him for the Nightwatcher's one. Alas... Sanderson could have quickly established that Rlain developed those interests during the gap and let him be more active in the attempts to bridge the divide between singers and humans if he wanted to present him as a serious/better candidate. As is, I wouldn't have found Rlain bonding the Sibling very satisfying. He just didn't accomplish enough to become a Bondsmith. The Sibling only wanted him because of their anti-human prejudice.

Fabrials as we know them did not exist back then, so Navani by default has to be the first.

So no they do not have to be intrested in fabrials, in fact that was never even part of the Siblings consideration, and was a large part of why they didn't want to bond Navani.

[Morningtide]

On 4/5/2021 at 7:10 AM, Ethansmith said:

I think her character was being set up for bondsmith. A Bondsmith forges bonds and brings people together. Navani was the one in charge of bringing everyone together in Urithiru, in RoW she literally brought together two god's tones. 

I agree