Necessary Eagle

All this time, we've been asking the wrong questions about bonding multiple spren

51 posts in this topic

3 minutes ago, Topgoon said:

Dual-wielding will only be the start of it. The applications are quite insane IMO. With two living, bonded sprens, Shallan can form:

  • a proper shard bow. One spren as the bow, the other as the arrow. The arrow automatically comes back.
  • a shard sword-and-shield (or net and trident like a gladiator)
  • more far-fetched, but if she can add mass to her light weaving (like in OB), can she form a double wielding the other blade?

 

 

1. We know that dead shardblades can be thrown, but do we have confirmation live ones can be? If so, could the arrow also slightly home towards it's target?

2. This would just be very effective, net runs into the above problem though.

3. This would be incredible. I need to see this.

Also, while Brandon RAFOd shard-guns a while ago, that was in relation to a single shardblade. I imagine that even if one spren cannot form a shardgun, two might.

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4 hours ago, valoglav said:

Hi everyone, I sign up because I have an idea forming in my mind, but I'm not sure if there are some facts that would prove me wrong.

Is there possibility that Testament is the Helarans blade? If he did something to influence Shallan to break her oaths, so he could get the blade? 

Welcome!

I can’t think of anything that directly invalidates this theory. It seems out of character for the Helaran we know, but we mostly know him through Shallan.

Also, the sword was lesser known (as Shallan wanted to sketch it for her inventory of blades). This could mean it was new, or it could mean it was known but not in detail, or she could have just been lying about that to have a reason to get close to Amaram.

Mai from my knowledge it *could* be, but I wouldn’t put my money on it.

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I assume that we've never seen Shallan summon Testamentblade because she's supposedly hear the screaming - and the blade we've seen since WoR has been Pattern. 

I'm a little confused as to what ideal Shallan is at now. If she had Pattern during WoR (3rd ideal), is she on her fifth ideal at this point? 

  • 4th ideal: murdering her mother and letting her father take the blame - there are theories that Shallan actually had Shardplate in OB during the Battle of Thaylen Field
  • 5th ideal: murdering her spren 

I personally suspect that she has 1 more ideal to go, since that would likely lead to the absorption of Radiant, and it makes sense narratively (her big climax in book 5). Hence why I feel like I'm losing count.  

Edited by Topgoon
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On 11/20/2020 at 10:06 AM, Harrycrapper said:

My theory is that the way they imprisoned Bo-Ado-Mishram affected more than the Sibling. You're right that there had to of been broken Oaths before the Recreance considering how easy it was for Shallan and Kaladin to break and nearly break theirs respectively. It's extremely unlikely that all the spren only ever bonded people that went to the Radiants and recieved instruction in how to best go about their bond. I suspect that the imprisonment also made spren more vulnerable to broken oaths. 

Yes. The Epigraphs suggest that Mishram is very, very important to Roshar. Further, the that Raboniel was "unmaking " the Sibling suggests that the other Unmade could be pre-Odium spren similar to Stormdaddy and Nightweirdo 

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7 hours ago, Blacksmithki said:

1. We know that dead shardblades can be thrown, but do we have confirmation live ones can be? If so, could the arrow also slightly home towards it's target?

2. This would just be very effective, net runs into the above problem though.

3. This would be incredible. I need to see this.

Also, while Brandon RAFOd shard-guns a while ago, that was in relation to a single shardblade. I imagine that even if one spren cannot form a shardgun, two might.

Spoiler

Shardguns have been somewhat confirmed now. And they’re as awesome as speculated.

 

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8 hours ago, Topgoon said:

4th ideal: murdering her mother and letting her father take the blame - there are theories that Shallan actually had Shardplate in OB during the Battle of Thaylen Field

If this is 4th, what are you calling 2nd and 3rd?

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1 hour ago, Govir said:

If this is 4th, what are you calling 2nd and 3rd?

They probably are referring to "I'm terrified" (soulcast goblet into blood) and "I killed my father" (going into Shadesmar in front of Jasnah), at the end of WoK. There's some relevant theorising in this thread: 

 

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5 hours ago, Zedseayou said:

They probably are referring to "I'm terrified" (soulcast goblet into blood) and "I killed my father" (going into Shadesmar in front of Jasnah), at the end of WoK. There's some relevant theorising in this thread: 

 

Yes, that's roughly what I'm thinking. 

Basically, if the blade Shallan used to kill Tyn was Pattern, then she was already at the 3rd ideal at the time and those 2 are the likely truths that got her there. But there's a chance that was Testamentblade (hence the 10 heartbeats), and somehow because of Shallan's previous bond, she doesn't hear the screaming. 

This revelation is essentially going to lead to another reread lol. I remember being so hyped by Shallan saying "10 heartbeats" in TWoK because of how amazing it'd be if she had a shardblade. Then we learned about Pattern and my head exploded. Now, it's happened again. I suspect chapters like "the Hidden Blade" will have totally new meaning now after RoW.

 

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1 hour ago, Topgoon said:

Basically, if the blade Shallan used to kill Tyn was Pattern, then she was already at the 3rd ideal at the time and those 2 are the likely truths that got her there.

That’s an excellent point that I didn’t think of. And just reinforces the oddity I found with Shallan’s Ideals. In my previous rundown in this thread, she wouldn’t have been at the Third Ideal with Pattern at the time she killed Tyn or used it in the chasm.

Has anyone ever flat out asked Brandon, what are Shallan’s Ideals / truths? Which probably now needs to be specified to “What are Shallan’s Ideals she has spoken to Pattern?” Which is vague enough to hopefully not spoil people who aren’t in the know.

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13 hours ago, Govir said:

That’s an excellent point that I didn’t think of. And just reinforces the oddity I found with Shallan’s Ideals. In my previous rundown in this thread, she wouldn’t have been at the Third Ideal with Pattern at the time she killed Tyn or used it in the chasm.

Has anyone ever flat out asked Brandon, what are Shallan’s Ideals / truths? Which probably now needs to be specified to “What are Shallan’s Ideals she has spoken to Pattern?” Which is vague enough to hopefully not spoil people who aren’t in the know.

I don't think anyone has asked where she is on her ideals but I could most certainly be wrong. I think that she's only at her 4th, seeing as we know that for the 5th ideal at least in the case of the skybrackers they become a reflection of their ideals/order. But the Lightwevers could be different as they swear by truths instead of ideals, so I'm too sure what they would become the embodiment of. Was Shallan at the 3ed or 2nt with Testament? and did it really take her 10 heartbeats to some the blade she used to kill Tyn? This would tell us if she used Testaments corps or Patternblade

Edited by Starlight
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On 21/11/2020 at 11:39 PM, Topgoon said:

Dual-wielding will only be the start of it. The applications are quite insane IMO. With two living, bonded sprens, Shallan can form:

  • a proper shard bow. One spren as the bow, the other as the arrow. The arrow automatically comes back.
  • a shard sword-and-shield (or net and trident like a gladiator)
  • more far-fetched, but if she can add mass to her light weaving (like in OB), can she form a double wielding the other blade?

 

 

I don't think the radiant spren can manifest in the physical realm as a Shardbow as the metal they manifest as is unbendable. Moreover, the bow will require a string and I don't think that is possible either

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5 minutes ago, Mr Bear said:

I don't think the radiant spren can manifest in the physical realm as a Shardbow as the metal they manifest as is unbendable. Moreover, the bow will require a string and I don't think that is possible either

Shard blades bend, and old Radiants had Bows.

They used other string, not their spren

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On 11/19/2020 at 8:15 AM, Spicker said:

I like this idea. It fits with the idea I had that her first spren turns into the soul caster her father was using. 

Okay this made me think: what if *she* was actually their soul caster all along and the one they found was fake like Jasnah's. 

And the ghostbloods put the fake one there after she broke her oaths, blocked out all her memories, and killed her parents.

Just made me think how so far everything she's done is what Mraize wanted, what if she actually was sent to spy on Jasnah to see how close see was to getting to Urithiru 

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Ok, as I was reading this, if she had Testamentblade in WoR then why didn’t scream to Kaladin while they were in the Chasms?

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1 hour ago, HaileyTheMistborn said:

Ok, as I was reading this, if she had Testamentblade in WoR then why didn’t scream to Kaladin while they were in the Chasms?

She has ALWAYS has the Testamentblade, ever since we've seen her.  She used the Testamentblade to kill her mother, and also to kill Tyn.  Kaladin does not hear screaming when Shallan lends her to him because Testament IS STILL BONDED TO HER ORIGINAL RADIANT.  Testament is not a "dead for 2000 years" Recreance deadeye, but something new and different.

It's possible that the activation of the Oathgate at the end of WoR is the very first time we see Pattern summoned as a Blade... but it's also possible (Shallan being well known as an unreliable narrator) that it's still Testament.  We do know - through Adolin and Maya in the Battle of Thaylen City - that even Recreance deadeye Blades can be summoned in less than ten heartbeats under the right circumstances.

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It is possible that those scenes are all pattern 

She could be fooling herself into thinking she is a normal Shardbearer by making Pattern wait 10 heart beats before being summoned

She’s just not accepting the truth

Its a tossup and someone probably has to ask at a signing to find the answers 

 

On an unrelated topic 

How did pattern remember that Shallan was playing in the gardens

He keeps on telling her to remember and says that he was the one that killed shallan a mom

Is he just lying through his teeth for the whole book

 

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5 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

On an unrelated topic 

How did pattern remember that Shallan was playing in the gardens

He keeps on telling her to remember and says that he was the one that killed shallan a mom

Is he just lying through his teeth for the whole book

 

There has been a group of Cryptics watching Shallan for a while. That’s why Pattern was sent when she abandoned Testament, and it’s also why he’s told her before that if she kills him, they’ll send another. 

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On 11/20/2020 at 9:26 PM, Govir said:

Shallan believes she’s double bonded now and can at least summon Testament as a “dead” shard blade.

Is the sword still not trapped in the vault in her childhood home? I remember her constantly picturing it as a child. Of course, she "realizes" that it was never there in the first place when she bonded enough with to summon her patternblade, but the original testamentblade should actually still be there. She was conflating the two.

The ability to summon dead blades is a third-party fabrial attachment. I guess it's possible that broken KR maintain the ability to resummon their dead blade, but I don't think there's any evidence to that point. 

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16 hours ago, Could Be Fire said:

but the original testamentblade should actually still be there

Testament being in the CR shows that the Blade's dismissed.

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1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Testament being in the CR shows that the Blade's dismissed.

Didn't Ico say in OB that deadeyes will travel blindly to go where their physical forms are? That's why his father is locked up in the ship, to stop him from wandering away. He wouldn't have anywhere to wander to of the blade was dismissed. 

That implies to me that deadeyes aren't tied to their physical form, so seeing Testament doesn't negate the possibility of the blade. We don't even know if it's possible for deadeyes blades to be dismissed without a gemstone, even by their og Radient.

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36 minutes ago, Could Be Fire said:

Didn't Ico say in OB that deadeyes will travel blindly to go where their physical forms are?

No, they wander towards the person bonded to the Blade. They vanish when brought into the Physical (for example, Adolin sees some of the gathered deadeyes outside Lasting Integrity turn into mist because they were summoned).

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On 18/11/2020 at 11:47 PM, Illwei said:

I wonder if that's possible, and what the implications would be? would she somehow be stronger than the other lighweavers because...more...bonds...= more....investiture? technically?

We have WoB bounding two Sprens of the same order doesn't increase your power (beside the obvious "two Shardblades" thing)

On 21/11/2020 at 5:25 PM, valoglav said:

Hi everyone, I sign up because I have an idea forming in my mind, but I'm not sure if there are some facts that would prove me wrong.

Is there possibility that Testament is the Helarans blade? If he did something to influence Shallan to break her oaths, so he could get the blade? 

Wasn't Helaran's blade shaped like flames, which would implies it's a Dustbringer Deadeye?

On 22/11/2020 at 2:49 AM, Kingsdaughter613 said:
  Reveal hidden contents

Shardguns have been somewhat confirmed now. And they’re as awesome as speculated.

 

What?

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7 hours ago, mathiau said:

We have WoB bounding two Sprens of the same order doesn't increase your power (beside the obvious "two Shardblades" thing)

Wasn't Helaran's blade shaped like flames, which would implies it's a Dustbringer Deadeye?

What?

Sequel of the Dusk.

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Ok but what about wearing DOUBLE shardplate? Anyone think of this?

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10 minutes ago, Waffles said:

Ok but what about wearing DOUBLE shardplate? Anyone think of this?

I guess for a Windrunner this could be useful, those some would just double layer, and it might be worse.

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