Necessary Eagle

All this time, we've been asking the wrong questions about bonding multiple spren

35 posts in this topic

Okay, the Shallan reveal has me pretty shaken, but consider this: she revives Testament and becomes a dual-wielding double Lightweaver.

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I wonder if that's possible, and what the implications would be? would she somehow be stronger than the other lighweavers because...more...bonds...= more....investiture? technically?

I...don't understand though, because it would pain her and Pattern for a week to actually bond he old spren's blade no? unless...something is different because of their particular Connection, or something similar to how Maya is ..."friends" with Adolin? if Shallan's old spren is ...willing to bond with her again...it..won't scream??

Edited by Illwei
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I was thoroughly shocked when Shallan’s Fourth Truth was revealed, and I too wonder if she will revive her old Cryptic using her Innate Investiture, as Adolin has done with Maya.

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1 hour ago, TheOneKEA said:

I was thoroughly shocked when Shallan’s Fourth Truth was revealed, and I too wonder if she will revive her old Cryptic using her Innate Investiture, as Adolin has done with Maya.

I mean, Brandon said the easiest way to revive a deadeye is for the Knight who killed it to renew their Oaths... he just didn't say what would happened if said Knight bonded a new spren in the meantime.

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34 minutes ago, Necessary Eagle said:

I mean, Brandon said the easiest way to revive a deadeye is for the Knight who killed it to renew their Oaths... he just didn't say what would happened if said Knight bonded a new spren in the meantime.

I was wondering how that was even possible. Especially when the "second" Nahel bond is to a spren of the same type.

I also found it interesting that "deadeye" spren were only ever a thing since the Recreance. Surely Radiants had broken or weakened on their oathal commitments in the thousands of years before that, certainly at the "I didn't really mean to do it!" level of Kaladin with Syl in Words of Radiance if not an outright repudiation or renouncing of their bond as L'il Formless Shallan had done?

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I'm thinking her original spren might have something to do with her difficulties soulcasting? She has somehow (mentally or otherwise) linked her soulcasting abilities to her original spren, and thus cannot do it properly with Pattern?

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13 hours ago, Illwei said:

I...don't understand though, because it would pain her and Pattern for a week to actually bond he old spren's blade no?

They do not have the Blade. Presumably it is still in the Davar ancestral home. Or the Ghostbloods have taken it hostage.

 

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57 minutes ago, Mercy said:

I'm thinking her original spren might have something to do with her difficulties soulcasting? She has somehow (mentally or otherwise) linked her soulcasting abilities to her original spren, and thus cannot do it properly with Pattern?

I like this idea. It fits with the idea I had that her first spren turns into the soul caster her father was using. 

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1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

They do not have the Blade. Presumably it is still in the Davar ancestral home. Or the Ghostbloods have taken it hostage.

No, it's the Blade she knows she can summon in "ten heartbeats" if she has to even before she's sworn the Third Ideal to Pattern (II). Like, she thinks about summoning it to fight off the "mysterious symbol-headed creatures" she starts to see in Kharbranth after becoming Jasnah's ward.

With the Nahel bond broken/rejected she can't use Stormlight or Surgebind, but having reached (at least) the Third Ideal apparently she was left bonded to it as much as being bonded with a deadeye Blade would be via gemstone? The only other "living Knight with a dead spren" example we have was when Kaladin "killed" Syl, but she hadn't yet been a Blade as he was only of the Second Ideal.

Edited by robardin
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Quote

As always, thinking of her father made her feel ill, and the pain started to constrict her chest. She raised her freehand to her head, suddenly overwhelmed by the weight of House Davar’s situation, her part in it, and the secret she now carried, hidden ten heartbeats away.

tWoK Chapter 7.

 

Quote

WOB: TWoK West Jordan Signing Report, Dec 6th, 2012

QUESTION

And does she have a Shardblade?
BRANDON SANDERSON

She does have a Shardblade.

https://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=988#6

There may be a difference in thhat she would not have to re-bond the blade as she is the original knight, and I do not think we actually ever see Shallon draw that blade? 

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34 minutes ago, robardin said:

With the Nahel bond broken/rejected she can't use Stormlight or Surgebind, but having reached (at least) the Third Ideal apparently she was left bonded to it as much as being bonded with a deadeye Blade would be via gemstone? The only other "living Knight with a dead spren" example we have was when Kaladin "killed" Syl, but she hadn't yet been a Blade as he was only of the Second Ideal.

But we saw the vision of the Recreance. Those Blades stayed around.

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40 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

But we saw the vision of the Recreance. Those Blades stayed around.

But those spren had all been summoned as blades and then killed. If you break your oaths without having your sword out at the time... I'm not sure what happens.

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So, I read the book pretty quickly. But as I recall this part, Shallan bonded Testament as a very young child. She advanced far enough in oaths to summon a blade. 

I'm a little confused about the timeline. Testament is the Shardblade used to kill her mother, but was Testament alive at this time? I would assume so, since she appeared physically in a smaller form. Did Shallan then break her oaths in horror at what she'd done? Hiw does this work out with her months of not speaking?

 

Or, did Shallan kill Testament and use her corpse to kill her mother? If so, why did she break her bond with Testament?

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22 minutes ago, Necessary Eagle said:

But those spren had all been summoned as blades and then killed. If you break your oaths without having your sword out at the time... I'm not sure what happens.

Yeah, I theorized this at some point - not sure if it is in any way supported or contradicted by any WoB, though - that what we saw in Dalinar's vision at Feverstone Keep was an intentional act to leave Shards (both Blades and Plate) in the hands of human soldiers, even though they immediately started killing each other over them.

Exactly why, we just don't know yet. (The fact that we now know for sure that the Recreance was something done in agreement with their spren may be a clue.)

Edited by robardin
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Just a thought: Don't dead Shardblades follow their bearer in Shadesmar? Is so, where was Testament in Oathbringer? Shouldn't she have been near Shallan as Maya was with Adolin?

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32 minutes ago, ProfessorMLyon said:

Just a thought: Don't dead Shardblades follow their bearer in Shadesmar? Is so, where was Testament in Oathbringer? Shouldn't she have been near Shallan as Maya was with Adolin?

She ("Testament") may have been trying to do that, but was prevented.

Quote

The inkspren waved to his friend. "She was my partner for many centuries. She left ten years ago to join others hunting for Radiants. Last year I found her like this, sitting alone on an island far to the east. She insisted on coming out this direction - at least, she walked this way incessantly. So I set up shop here."

The "island far to the East" may be... Wherever in the middle of the Shattered Plains that Shallan summoned her as a Blade to kill Tyn with? And if it was a year or longer ago, that would be or could be before their accidental trip into Shadesmar via Corrupted Oathgate, right? And this inkspren "set up shop" around her, keeping her in place? I dunno.

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1 hour ago, ProfessorMLyon said:

Just a thought: Don't dead Shardblades follow their bearer in Shadesmar? Is so, where was Testament in Oathbringer? Shouldn't she have been near Shallan as Maya was with Adolin?

This is something I think should be asked to Brandon when we get to an AMA or other question-asking event that allows book spoilers.

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11 hours ago, NysemePtem said:

So, I read the book pretty quickly. But as I recall this part, Shallan bonded Testament as a very young child. She advanced far enough in oaths to summon a blade. 

I'm a little confused about the timeline. Testament is the Shardblade used to kill her mother, but was Testament alive at this time? I would assume so, since she appeared physically in a smaller form. Did Shallan then break her oaths in horror at what she'd done? Hiw does this work out with her months of not speaking?

 

Or, did Shallan kill Testament and use her corpse to kill her mother? If so, why did she break her bond with Testament?

I understood it as Shallan bonding Testament, then using Testament to kill her mother, and then breaking her oaths because of it.

First, she bonded the spren, and tried to  protect her family.

Quote

“The Cryptic encouraged her to become strong enough to help her family, to stand against the terrible darkness spreading through it.”

“Such a blessed time, full of hope, and joy, and truths spoken easily with the solemnity and wonder of a child. That companion had been a true friend to an isolated child, a girl who suffered parents who constantly fought over her future.”

Then,she killed her mother in self-defense, the first time she summoned her blade:

Quote

“And Mother?” Shallan snapped. “Do you remember the feel of the Blade forming in our hands for the first time, Veil? I do. Do you remember the horror I felt at the strike, which I never meant to make?”
Her mother, with stark red hair—a length of metal in her chest as her beautiful green eyes turned to coal. Burning out of her face. Shallan’s voice, screaming at what she’d done. Screaming, begging to take it back. Wishing she were dead. Wishing … Wishing …”

And then finally breaking her oaths.

Quote

“Within it, a hidden place where a girl cried. The girl wept, then screamed, then said the terrible words.
“I don’t want you! I hate you! I’m done! You never existed. You are nothing. And I am finished!”

By the way, while Shallan's truths are now complete (I think), we still don't have the full picture of Shallan's childhood. We still have the old quote from Wit, that "the things you fight are not entirely natural", and here the comment that "“The Cryptic encouraged her to become strong enough to help her family, to stand against the terrible darkness spreading through it.” There was still some unspecified antagonist (possibly an unmade?) that young Shallan lost to and older wiser Shallan might beat in round 2/book 5.

Edited by ftl
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On 11/18/2020 at 6:19 PM, robardin said:

I was wondering how that was even possible. Especially when the "second" Nahel bond is to a spren of the same type.

I also found it interesting that "deadeye" spren were only ever a thing since the Recreance. Surely Radiants had broken or weakened on their oathal commitments in the thousands of years before that, certainly at the "I didn't really mean to do it!" level of Kaladin with Syl in Words of Radiance if not an outright repudiation or renouncing of their bond as L'il Formless Shallan had done?

My theory is that the way they imprisoned Bo-Ado-Mishram affected more than the Sibling. You're right that there had to of been broken Oaths before the Recreance considering how easy it was for Shallan and Kaladin to break and nearly break theirs respectively. It's extremely unlikely that all the spren only ever bonded people that went to the Radiants and recieved instruction in how to best go about their bond. I suspect that the imprisonment also made spren more vulnerable to broken oaths. 

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On 11/19/2020 at 10:29 PM, ftl said:

By the way, while Shallan's truths are now complete (I think), we still don't have the full picture of Shallan's childhood.

We’ve also got a whole new set of truths to be revealed.

My timeline of events:

1. Shallan bonds Testament, up to the third ideal.

2. Shallan kills her mother (aside: who we still don’t know the name of?), and breaks the bond with Testament.

3. Shallan starts repressing her memories and fracturing (i.e. lying to herself), which attracts Pattern, and she starts over from the beginning.

I am glad this was explained, because it never made sense to me that Shallan had a blade at a young age (which we assumed was 3rd ideal) then said for sure at least one more ideal (or maybe 2) because she could no longer repress the memories, but didn’t seem to be higher than the 3rd ideal still.

So this brings me to the fact that we don’t have any other light weaver oaths we’ve seen to compare to hers. It’s hard to tell which of her statements were oaths (some of them).

  1. Shared
  2. I am frightened (something she was suppressing from herself) or I killed my father (something she wasn’t hiding from)
  3. I killed my mother (for sure an oath)
  4. I killed my first spren (idk, did she say the 4th ideal? Or is this just helping with her fracturing?)

I guess this veered off topic, but it sounds like Shallan believes she’s double bonded now and can at least summon Testament as a “dead” shard blade.

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My theory is Shallan bonded Testament and swore the first ideal and then told a simple truth (something about her home and her parents  a children concern maybe). Point is, Testament accepted her truth and then Shallan started Lightweaving 

 

Her mother saw she is a surgebinder, her mother was somewhat linked to a group who wants to prevent desolations to happen. In one night, her mother asked her if she is a Radiant, and with the honest, even knowing her mother could hurt her, Shallan spoke her second truth "I'm a Radiant/I'm a surgebinder" 

This was enough for her mother try to kill her, Shallan was protected by Testamentblade, who she conjured without realizing she could. She murderer her mother in the process 

The shock of killing her mom lead her to break her oaths, starting lying she isn't a Radiant, rejecting her powers. This destroyed her bonds, but she kept her shardblade 

She used the same shardblade the whole Words of Radiance, being able to use Patternblade only in Oathbringer 

We must also to understand the "truths" Shallan needs to say are things she don't want to admit to herself, things that she rather hide. In WOK she was conscious of her killing her father, and she didn't regret that, she did it because she wanted to protect her siblings. She was hiding it  just for a matter of convenience

So her truths were, for Testament:

1° "I don't like to live my parents, they fight/arguing so much" (Don't want to admit, because children aren't supposed to dislike their parents), second ideal enough to lightweaving and bonding Testament

2° "Yes mom, I'm a Radiant" (Don't want to admit, because it would out her in danger), third ideal enough to get a blade

3° Rejected her truths, started lying, broke her oaths. Stopped surgebinding but kept her blade

For Pattern:

1° "I am terrified" (Don't want to admit her plan was stupid, she was weak, she was going insane and wanted to be at home), second ideal enough to start soulcasting and lightweaving, and get Pattern too

2° "I killed mom and let dad take the blame" (Don't want to admit she was the root cause of her family breaking apart), third ideal enough to get Patternblade 

3° "I've broken my words and turned my first spren a deadeye" (Don't want to admit she was one of the reasons why Spren still not trusting humans even in this age), fourth ideal, pretty sure she has her Shardplate now as long as almost limitless Lightweaving abilities 

Edited by IcaroRibeiro
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8 minutes ago, IcaroRibeiro said:

She used the same shardblade the whole Words of Radiance, being able to use Patternblade only in Oathbringer

This is wrong, she explicitely used Pattern as a blade to open the Oathgate and save them all at the end of WoR:

 

Quote

Only one answer.

Shallan grabbed the hilt of his sword and whipped it out--ignoring the scream in her mind that came from touching it--then tossed it aside.  Adolin's sword vanished to mist.

A deep truth

"There is something wrong with your Blade, and with all Blades."   She hesitated for just a second.  "All but mine.  Pattern!"

 

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Hi everyone, I sign up because I have an idea forming in my mind, but I'm not sure if there are some facts that would prove me wrong.

Is there possibility that Testament is the Helarans blade? If he did something to influence Shallan to break her oaths, so he could get the blade? 

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6 hours ago, Isilel said:

This is wrong, she explicitely used Pattern as a blade to open the Oathgate and save them all at the end of WoR:

Agreed. The Oathgate requires a living blade or Honorblade to function. A dead Testamentblade would not work. 

However, perception is big in the Cosmere. If Shallan had lied to herself so fully that she though Pattern was the same Shardblade she used to kill her mother, perhaps she could have summoned Patternblade before earning it. Or convinced the Oathgate to act like Testamentblade was alive.

Also could be possible that the Oathgates don't require a living blade, but a blade bonded to a Radiant. (Which would usually mean a living blade, but Shallan's case is special.)

However, all this is far-fetched to me. Personally, I think the Lightweaver oaths are less regimented as to when you "earn" your Blade. She was within reach of her next Ideal, and so could already summon the Patternblade with effort.

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On 11/18/2020 at 0:06 PM, Necessary Eagle said:

Okay, the Shallan reveal has me pretty shaken, but consider this: she revives Testament and becomes a dual-wielding double Lightweaver.

Dual-wielding will only be the start of it. The applications are quite insane IMO. With two living, bonded sprens, Shallan can form:

  • a proper shard bow. One spren as the bow, the other as the arrow. The arrow automatically comes back.
  • a shard sword-and-shield (or net and trident like a gladiator)
  • more far-fetched, but if she can add mass to her light weaving (like in OB), can she form a double wielding the other blade?

 

 

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