Lirin Hate Thread

[Wolfbeckett]

On 12/12/2020 at 5:27 PM, Wind_Breaker said:

I'm trying to figure out what makes the difference in opinions here. The reactions in this thread can be summarized as

1. Lirin is understandable (/he overreacted/didn't mean it/is still a loving parent etc.)

2. I hate him for what he said to Kaladin. (He potentially did unforgivable damage)

a) The two attitudes are probably about how we'd deal with a fight in which a parent tells us we are monsters. Or with criticism in general. I am part of the Lirin is still a cool character and understandable crew. Like, I would obviously be super angry at both my parents, but since my mom and I have heated discussions sometimes, and very different conflict styles, I would know we'd figure this out eventually, it was said out of anger. To make me back down maybe, or see the magnitude of the parent's hurt. I'd be hurt and then rationalize it.

b ) I don't feel the need to jump to Kaladin's defense either. That is another thing I suppose about the f* Lirin crowd: You want to protect Kaladin, who is down already, and gets called a pretty condemning thing about his character. Which can leave a pretty destructive mark on his identity.

Please feel free to throw in your thoughts, F* Lirin Crowd!

I once saw a discussion on Reddit about a rpg in which people also reacted to a certain decision in the game in that bipolar way. (Dragon Age Inquisition; gay upper class mage Dorian goes to meet someone, sees it's his father who tried to alter his sexual orientation with blood magic bc in their society, while you can live any sexuality you want, you, as an upper class person, have to produce heirs, and Dorian doesn't want to. Father wants to talk and apologize). Roughly the two discussed reactions were a) I encourage him to talk it out and then leave with me to calm down and think about it. The relationship with his father is one of Dorian's deepest wounds and he needs to address the man himself to have a chance at healing b ) I get him out immediately without giving his father a chance to speak. Dorian shouldn't suffer any more abuse, not a second of it. The redditors tried to find ties between how people had grown up, how their relations with their parents were, and how they decided in-game. I feel like this is very similar to the Lirin hate thread here.

@Kingsdaughter613  Me too! I'm curious to see whether Lirin will ever join any military effort. Doesn't look like it atm, but since not all Radiants necessarily fight all the time, I could imagine him as a Skybreaker who refuses to kill. That, again, would probably clash with Nale. And he probably wouldn't get too far with his oaths. Ad it will probably not happen anyway.

 

Oh I agree completely!

This thread has been interesting.  Every person sooner or later learns that their parents are not perfect, that they are flawed human beings just like everyone else.  Some learn it much younger than others if their parents are actively abusive but we all learn it.  This thread reflects two very common reactions to that realization.  The first is that you accept this knowledge, internalize it pretty quickly, and learn to see your parents as another person and to get along with them as such.  The second is to see the mistake that caused that realization as a personal betrayal (and, to be clear, sometimes it is, I am not saying this reaction is unjustified or anything like that) and to become resentful and often bitter as a result.

Lirin is far from perfect.  He's made mistakes and some of them have been serious ones.  But he's not some irredeemable monster.  He's just human.  And he has shown at the end of RoW that he has the capacity to grow and become better.  That's all we can reasonably expect out of people.

[Leuthie]

I'm going through Lirin's lines regarding Kaladin, and I'm not sure I understand the vitriol against him. I can understand disagreeing. Especially if you think Lirin would be willing to sit as a slave and do nothing no matter what. Lirin wishes to do no harm, and I have a feeling that is the direction that the 5th Ideal is going to take Kaladin.

Before the Regals came to take Teft and Kaladin killed one and sent the other away, Lirin and Kaladin had a discussion and Kaladin actually agreed with everything that Lirin said. There were definitely ways to help others and to move the cause forward without fighting. Shortly after, Kaladin, seemingly unprovoked, attaked a Regal in Lirin's home and killed him in a very messy way. Lirin reacted with anger and tears at the murderer he saw in his son. To be fair to Lirin, he doesn't have the context with Kaladin that we do. Even Kaladin was questioning his decision to attack and steal Teft away before, during and after he made the decision. This wasn't a black and white issue at all, and there's no evidence that Lirin would NEVER fight back. I'm not 100% sure Kaladin helped anyone's cause by putting Teft in a closed room and spending his time and energy on the run. It's quite possible he made the wrong choice.

"I can and will!" Lirin shouted, standing up. "Because I will take responsibility for what I've done! I will work within whatever confines I must in order to protect people! I have taken oaths not to harm!"

If Lirin had a spren with him, he would have stated 3 different Oaths there. Looking through the entirety of Lirin's quotes in the 4 books, Kaladin will reach the 5th Ideal when he truly understands why his father doesn't fight. The two of them have basically argued over the Windrunner Ideals the entire series and the only one left is the one most of this thread is stuck on. I will do no harm when protecting others.

Edited December 17, 2020 by Leuthie

[Tanavast_the_lesser]

4 hours ago, Leuthie said:

I'm going through Lirin's lines regarding Kaladin, and I'm not sure I understand the vitriol against him. I can understand disagreeing. Especially if you think Lirin would be willing to sit as a slave and do nothing no matter what. Lirin wishes to do no harm, and I have a feeling that is the direction that the 5th Ideal is going to take Kaladin.

Before the Regals came to take Teft and Kaladin killed one and sent the other away, Lirin and Kaladin had a discussion and Kaladin actually agreed with everything that Lirin said. There were definitely ways to help others and to move the cause forward without fighting. Shortly after, Kaladin, seemingly unprovoked, attaked a Regal in Lirin's home and killed him in a very messy way. Lirin reacted with anger and tears at the murderer he saw in his son. To be fair to Lirin, he doesn't have the context with Kaladin that we do. Even Kaladin was questioning his decision to attack and steal Teft away before, during and after he made the decision. This wasn't a black and white issue at all, and there's no evidence that Lirin would NEVER fight back. I'm not 100% sure Kaladin helped anyone's cause by putting Teft in a closed room and spending his time and energy on the run. It's quite possible he made the wrong choice.

"I can and will!" Lirin shouted, standing up. "Because I will take responsibility for what I've done! I will work within whatever confines I must in order to protect people! I have taken oaths not to harm!"

If Lirin had a spren with him, he would have stated 3 different Oaths there. Looking through the entirety of Lirin's quotes in the 4 books, Kaladin will reach the 5th Ideal when he truly understands why his father doesn't fight. The two of them have basically argued over the Windrunner Ideals the entire series and the only one left is the one most of this thread is stuck on. I will do no harm when protecting others.

I can see where you're coming from, and I may be proven wrong by my next statement by a later book, but I can't see how the 5th Ideal of the Windrunners would bond them to nonviolence seeing as a) you can't protect people very well from a Desolation if you can't fight and b) the ancient Windrunners sometimes disputed the Stonewards as to who were the best warriors, which is hard to do without fighting. The Windrunners are a bit like Vin in Mistborn, they have both the ability to destroy to preserve/ harm to protect if need be.

[NameIess]

5 hours ago, Leuthie said:

If Lirin had a spren with him, he would have stated 3 different Oaths there. Looking through the entirety of Lirin's quotes in the 4 books, Kaladin will reach the 5th Ideal when he truly understands why his father doesn't fight. The two of them have basically argued over the Windrunner Ideals the entire series and the only one left is the one most of this thread is stuck on. I will do no harm when protecting others.

 

31 minutes ago, Tanavast_the_lesser said:

I can see where you're coming from, and I may be proven wrong by my next statement by a later book, but I can't see how the 5th Ideal of the Windrunners would bond them to nonviolence seeing as a) you can't protect people very well from a Desolation if you can't fight and b) the ancient Windrunners sometimes disputed the Stonewards as to who were the best warriors, which is hard to do without fighting. The Windrunners are a bit like Vin in Mistborn, they have both the ability to destroy to preserve/ harm to protect if need be.

I agree with both of you. I think that the fifth ideal will be the ideal when the Windrunner decides how they will protect. that could be through medicine, or it could be through combat.

[danex]

I think Lirin is a great character. I don’t know how Brandon manages to write the Father-Son relationship so well. The man’s a genius. 
Anyway, I think Lirin is a good person in-world as well. He’s written in an antagonistic way, but that doesn’t make him a bad person. If we saw the entirety of Stormlight through Lirin’s eyes, and then saw Kaladin for the first time in the same way, a lot of us would probably hate Kal. 

I saw a lot of people are surprised at Hesina too, because she wouldn’t stand up for Kal. I think she knows Lirin a lot better than any of us do, and she knew that he wouldn’t actually turn his own son in to the Fused. 

 

Also, I’m reading the thread more thoroughly, and I think it’s funny how you can kinda infer what people’s relationships with their own fathers are via their opinion of Lirin. Very interesting. 

Edited December 19, 2020 by Ookla the Disproportionate

[Aspiring Writer]

28 minutes ago, Ookla the Disproportionate said:

I think Lirin is a great character. I don’t know how Brandon manages to write the Father-Son relationship so well. The man’s a genius. 
Anyway, I think Lirin is a good person in-world as well. He’s written in an antagonistic way, but that doesn’t make him a bad person. If we saw the entirety of Stormlight through Lirin’s eyes, and then saw Kaladin for the first time in the same way, a lot of us would probably hate Kal. 

I saw a lot of people are surprised at Hesina too, because she wouldn’t stand up for Kal. I think she knows Lirin a lot better than any of us do, and she knew that he wouldn’t actually turn his own son in to the Fused. 

 

Also, I’m reading the thread more thoroughly, and I think it’s funny how you can kinda infer what people’s relationships with their own fathers are via their opinion of Lirin. Very interesting. 

I think people would still like Kal. Lirin's ideology of pure pacifism can grind people's gears, as it's a very extreme position a lot of people will disagree with. That is part of what can set people off, Kal's ideology is more relatable to people than Lirin's.

Lirin's is definitely a great character, and while I see him as extreme, because let's face it, he does represent the more extreme side of the spectrum for the whole pacifism thing, that's part of who he is, I am capable of seeing his perspective and understanding him and he is very consistent and well thought out. The only parts that ever annoy me are when he tries to institute his ideology onto Kal, as I feel while you should explain your ideology, you shouldn't try to force it onto your children. But even that is consistent with him and the annoyance is the good kind, not the bad kind. 

Wasn't really surprised with Hesina. She is clearly the peacemaker. Choosing any side would prevent her from getting both sides together.

Yeah, Lirin represents parents with a strict code and a close-mindedness to other ideologies, which is very common with parents, specifically traditional Indian and Asian parents, and people with those parents will have strong opinions of a character that matches so perfectly with them. I think everyone can clearly guess my relationship with my parents.

[Bigmikey357]

As far as Lirin goes, thank everything holy for Hessina. Maybe it should have been obvious but if it wasn't for her I probably never would have realized that Lirin has the exact same hangup regarding Tien that Kaladin has. He blames himself for his son's death. 

He even has more justification for it than Kaladin.  He could have caved on the spheres.  He could have moved away. He could have let the knife slip on that operating table.  Note that I do not blame him for any of these decisions.  In many ways Kaladin would not have become the guy we all love had his father wavered in his moral character when things got tough. But I can understand that he feels that he failed his family, that he failed his then-youngest son. Therefore the actions he takes after Tien's death, the stances he adopts, are totally reactionary to past trauma. It makes him a dark mirror to Kaladin in some respects. 

That being said,  I can admit Lirin is well written.  I'm aware that Brandon pulled all the heartstrings,  that I'm supposed to hate him in this book. I can even see the realism, for we often hurt those closest to us, if for no other reason than we know where the the armor is thinnest. And I can appreciate that with an assist from Hessina he was able to give his kid a break and eventuallycome tosome common ground. I can know all of these things,  understand all these things, yet still want to punch Lirin repeatedly in the face until my hand bleeds. And part of that is reflexively trying to defend Kaladin.  I can acknowledge that.  But there's things you just don't say to someone with PTSD.  There's things that you just don't say to heroes. And really Lirin,  read the flipping room for crying out loud. You're determined to be the only human on Roshar that isn't proud of Kaladin or respects his accomplishments.  Hell, Moash is probably the worst person ever. Even he loves Kaladin,  albeit in a stupidly twisted way.  Do better Lirin,  BE better.  I actually used to like you.

 

Edited December 19, 2020 by Bigmikey357

[Windwalker]

Was I the only one waiting for someone from Bridge Four to tell Lirin off for the entire book? Rlain was close, but Lirin needed a dose from Sergeant Teft or a heart to heart with Rock.

His complete disregard for the amazing things Kaladin accomplished was very frustrating.

Edited December 29, 2020 by Windwalker

[LazarusLong]

At the end of part 2 Lirin is about as unlikable as a character can be. I can at least understand why the Pursuer is evil; Venli's horrible treason against her people was at least done mistakenly; Shallan is pretty unlikable, but her chapters are interesting so I can forgive her that. But Lirin, man he is 100% a POS with 0 redeeming qualities. He practices a profession that is completely worthless and flies into childish bouts of rage whenever his son chooses not to follow him into pointlessness. He definitely contributes to Kaladin's mental troubles and that is a very grave crime indeed because Kaladin - mental trouble is probably enough to single-handedly protect Urithiru from the invaders. I can only imagine a world in which Kaladin's dad was a good guy who was overcome with joy after discovering his son was still alive and eternally grateful he was chosen to be a Radiant protector of Roshar. Kaladin would probably have sworn the 4th ideal much sooner and a lot of pointless deaths would have been avoided. Honestly, storm Lirin.

[Frustration]

14 minutes ago, LazarusLong said:

He practices a profession that is completely worthless and flies into childish bouts of rage whenever his son chooses not to follow him into pointlessness.

It's not pointless to the people he helps.

Do not call saving lives pointless.

[LazarusLong]

Quote

Do not call saving lives pointless.

Very virtue-signally reply here. If your first reading of someone's post gives you the impression that they literally don't care about saving lives you should reconsider if you misunderstood what they wrote. I never said saving lives was pointless.

I said his profession was pointless. And by the time Lirin's in Urithiru and the Edgedancers and Truthwatchers can heal virtually all ailments, his profession is virtually pointless. Practicing as a surgeon is a major waste of Kaladin who can do so much more good doing anything else (as we see when Kaladin saves thousands of lives fighting and improves the lives of many by pioneering psychoanalysis). Forcing Kaladin to do surgery is in essence damning all those that Kaladin would have otherwise saved through fighting. Surgery is even pointless for a man as smart as Lirin too because his talents could be much more efficiently spent at any number of fields, because again, the Edgedancers and Truthwatchers have him severely outclassed.

[NameIess]

11 minutes ago, LazarusLong said:

I said his profession was pointless. And by the time Lirin's in Urithiru and the Edgedancers and Truthwatchers can heal virtually all ailments, his profession is virtually pointless. Practicing as a surgeon is a major waste of Kaladin who can do so much more good doing anything else (as we see when Kaladin saves thousands of lives fighting and improves the lives of many by pioneering psychoanalysis). Forcing Kaladin to do surgery is in essence damning all those that Kaladin would have otherwise saved through fighting. Surgery is even pointless for a man as smart as Lirin too because his talents could be much more efficiently spent at any number of fields, because again, the Edgedancers and Truthwatchers have him severely outclassed.

They can't heal diseases that are genetic, or old conditions. If someone has a bad heart, regrowth can't help. They can heal diseases and wounds. That's good, but surgeons are stil absolutely vital.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, LazarusLong said:

Very virtue-signally reply here. If your first reading of someone's post gives you the impression that they literally don't care about saving lives you should reconsider if you misunderstood what they wrote. I never said saving lives was pointless.

I said his profession was pointless. And by the time Lirin's in Urithiru and the Edgedancers and Truthwatchers can heal virtually all ailments, his profession is virtually pointless. Practicing as a surgeon is a major waste of Kaladin who can do so much more good doing anything else (as we see when Kaladin saves thousands of lives fighting and improves the lives of many by pioneering psychoanalysis). Forcing Kaladin to do surgery is in essence damning all those that Kaladin would have otherwise saved through fighting. Surgery is even pointless for a man as smart as Lirin too because his talents could be much more efficiently spent at any number of fields, because again, the Edgedancers and Truthwatchers have him severely outclassed.

1. There is litterally a sequence in the books where like @Nameless they go over why Regrowth is inferior to Surgery in several instances. True it's more neiche but it's incredibly useful.
2. and I cannot stress this enough KALADIN CHOSE! Kaladin chose to fo back to surgery.

[Kyn]

3 hours ago, LazarusLong said:

At the end of part 2 Lirin is about as unlikable as a character can be. I can at least understand why the Pursuer is evil; Venli's horrible treason against her people was at least done mistakenly; Shallan is pretty unlikable, but her chapters are interesting so I can forgive her that. But Lirin, man he is 100% a POS with 0 redeeming qualities. He practices a profession that is completely worthless and flies into childish bouts of rage whenever his son chooses not to follow him into pointlessness. He definitely contributes to Kaladin's mental troubles and that is a very grave crime indeed because Kaladin - mental trouble is probably enough to single-handedly protect Urithiru from the invaders. I can only imagine a world in which Kaladin's dad was a good guy who was overcome with joy after discovering his son was still alive and eternally grateful he was chosen to be a Radiant protector of Roshar. Kaladin would probably have sworn the 4th ideal much sooner and a lot of pointless deaths would have been avoided. Honestly, storm Lirin.

Sorry, this is anything but a concise thought.

Obviously people will have vastly different opinions, and Lirin goes out of his way to tear Kaladin down. But it's pretty harsh to say Lirin has no redeeming qualities. Yes, he fails to understand his son at all, too caught up in who he wants Kaladin to be. He put Kal, as a child, into a line of work that was inevitably going to mentally/emotionally cripple somebody who cannot separate out his emotions and sense of responsibility from the prices of doing what is necessary or being unable to prevent horrors. Lirin was emotionally manipulative and abusive even in Kal's childhood, withholding approval unless his son did exactly as he wanted.

Adding responsibility, withholding approval, and sneering at the protection Kaladin attempted even back when Kal chose to go into battle with Tien was pretty much a recipe for exacerbating mental health issues in someone with Kal's personality and clinical depression. Doing more of the same now, only with added derision for Kaladin's choices to kill to protect, is despicable. Lirin can't pretend inflicting this kind of emotional pain is better than inflicting physical violence. So yeah, I can't stand Lirin because of the way he treats his son, but how does Lirin doing more damage to Kaladin than any enemy (except possibly Moash) make him have no redeeming qualities?

Unless you explain otherwise, I'm assuming your next comment's a big part of the reason you'd think this.

20 minutes ago, LazarusLong said:

I said his profession was pointless. And by the time Lirin's in Urithiru and the Edgedancers and Truthwatchers can heal virtually all ailments, his profession is virtually pointless. 

But first, Lirin was a surgeon long before those orders reappeared. He saved lives, even if he destroyed his own family with his insistence on remaining in Hearthstone. Lirin taught Kaladin to do the right thing, to help people. Admittedly, he managed to inflict some pretty heavy sense of inferiority on Kaladin in the process, and no amount of positives in raising Kal counteract the negatives inflicted by devaluing both sons when they weren't doing exactly what Lirin wanted. But saying the redeeming qualities don't balance out the good lessons and deeds is very different from saying there are none.

And second, how do 50-some magical healers make other types of doctors pointless? Even assuming several thousand healers some day, they can't be everywhere. Should they become widespread, there will be a necessary limitation of their services based on a Radiant-decided system that will probably initially center around getting to those fighting against Odium or those in allied strongholds. Surgeons will still be broadly needed for a long time. Maybe always, in more farflung areas. The Tower might be one of those places where they're rendered redundant sooner rather than later, but there are plenty of other places to help out. 

On 12/17/2020 at 5:12 PM, Leuthie said:

I'm going through Lirin's lines regarding Kaladin, and I'm not sure I understand the vitriol against him. I can understand disagreeing. Especially if you think Lirin would be willing to sit as a slave and do nothing no matter what. Lirin wishes to do no harm, and I have a feeling that is the direction that the 5th Ideal is going to take Kaladin.

Before the Regals came to take Teft and Kaladin killed one and sent the other away, Lirin and Kaladin had a discussion and Kaladin actually agreed with everything that Lirin said. There were definitely ways to help others and to move the cause forward without fighting. Shortly after, Kaladin, seemingly unprovoked, attaked a Regal in Lirin's home and killed him in a very messy way. Lirin reacted with anger and tears at the murderer he saw in his son. To be fair to Lirin, he doesn't have the context with Kaladin that we do. Even Kaladin was questioning his decision to attack and steal Teft away before, during and after he made the decision. This wasn't a black and white issue at all, and there's no evidence that Lirin would NEVER fight back. I'm not 100% sure Kaladin helped anyone's cause by putting Teft in a closed room and spending his time and energy on the run. It's quite possible he made the wrong choice.

On the other end of the spectrum, though, I don't get how to not understand the vitriol against Lirin if you can understand disagreeing. A person who tells slaves to know their place, do their jobs well, and not try to escape is pretty reprehensible in the real world. And this is what Lirin did to Kal. Additionally, emotionally abusing a child, and continuing the trend when he's grown, isn't something people are able to avoid getting upset about.

As for Lirin, wishing not to do harm is great, but repeatedly demeaning Kaladin for choosing to fight (when he had little choice most of the time), and calling his suicidally depressed son a monster, makes Lirin a hypocrite at best. Hurting someone with a spear does a lot less damage than that did to Kaladin.

But mostly, how is Kaladin killing an enemy soldier who swung an axe at his head an unprovoked attack? No context is needed. Defending himself or others makes it not murder. Letting the other enemy go, especially by putting himself and his family more at risk, makes Kaladin not a monster. This should have been obvious to somebody as capable of segregating emotions and reason as Lirin, making the choice to call Kaladin a monster a calculated attack, an intentional act of harm targeting Kaladin's known weak points of self-perception.

Yeah, Lirin thought Kaladin could – should – have backed down and let the enemy take his friend, since he didn't know they would hurt Teft...immediately, at least. Assuming Kaladin had been able to think clearly, rather than sleep-deprived and in the chronic hypervigilant state of PTSD under any stressor, maybe he would have reasoned some response other than fighting as more appropriate. I doubt Kaladin could have just let Teft be taken, though, because Kaladin's emotions and logic are too intertwined. Which Lirin knew. Or had no excuse not to know, at least, given all his comments about Kal needing to grow callouses for surgery.

Lirin is far more sociopathic than Kaladin. Not to say that this is a bad thing for somebody who has to cut people open to save their lives. Functions like this are surely why sociopathy exists, and it's a useful tool if not taken too far. But for Lirin to expect his son to be able to separate out emotion and thought now, in an emotionally fraught moment, when Kal never has before is irrational. This is where Lirin's own emotions overwhelm him. To lash out at Kaladin for being who he always has been is probably a fear reaction, but because it builds on previous comments, it's not just that. It's also willfully cruel, targeting his son's insecurities and fears about himself that Lirin has repeatedly stoked.

Additionally, Kaladin seems to believe in negative responsibility in a way Lirin simply doesn't. Lirin was fine with letting Roshone's son die because he couldn't save him, but Kaladin always reacted viscerally to those who couldn't be saved in that kind of necessary triage. Lirin might consider it worse to kill even to protect, but Kaladin couldn't live with himself if somebody died because he failed to protect them. Killing in order to prevent somebody else from dying is a sacrifice Kaladin has to make, for his conscience, or feel as if he killed the ones he wanted to save. So, to Kaladin, letting Teft die would be as bad as murdering him, whereas Lirin didn't seem to care about that potential consequence as long as his son's hands weren't dirty...and the clinic wasn't bloodied.

Lirin considered Kaladin guilty for the things he had done; Kaladin considered himself guilty both for the things he had done and those he had failed to do or prevent. Lirin was fine with pacifism because he didn't buy into negative responsibility as heavily, whereas standing by and doing nothing tore Kaladin apart.

Those of us who bothered to get to know Kaladin at all, unlike his father, have every right to be furious at Lirin for tearing his son down repeatedly as if he thought that would let him rebuild Kaladin the way he wanted. This is something done to soldiers or others who are needed to be deindividualized cogs in a machine. It's not something you do to your child if you care about them as a person rather than some sort of extension of your own dreams.

We don't just understand Lirin, we also understand the consequences of his actions for someone suffering from sometimes-debilitating depression and self-castigation. Knowing that, we don't just disagree with Lirin; we're upset with him, too. Because he seems to understand those consequences, if not as well as we do – yet he chooses to treat Kaladin like this anyway.

On 12/19/2020 at 6:42 AM, Bigmikey357 said:

That being said,  I can admit Lirin is well written.  I'm aware that Brandon pulled all the heartstrings,  that I'm supposed to hate him in this book. I can even see the realism, for we often hurt those closest to us, if for no other reason than we know where the the armor is thinnest. And I can appreciate that with an assist from Hessina he was able to give his kid a break and eventuallycome tosome common ground. I can know all of these things,  understand all these things, yet still want to punch Lirin repeatedly in the face until my hand bleeds. And part of that is reflexively trying to defend Kaladin.  I can acknowledge that.  But there's things you just don't say to someone with PTSD.  There's things that you just don't say to heroes. And really Lirin,  read the flipping room for crying out loud. You're determined to be the only human on Roshar that isn't proud of Kaladin or respects his accomplishments.  Hell, Moash is probably the worst person ever. Even he loves Kaladin,  albeit in a stupidly twisted way.  Do better Lirin,  BE better.  I actually used to like you.

 

Just...yeah. Some fathers don't realize what they're doing to their kids, and it's possible to be more frustrated than furious. Possible. But Lirin spent years essentially telling his son he was too sensitive, trying to subject him to enough horror to get over the inability to shut off emotional responses in moments of crisis. Then he claims Kaladin committed murder by fighting back instead of rolling over, and calls him a monster for killing just the one person who threatened Kaladin when he was in a hypervigilant state. Lirin knows enough about his son that he doesn't need to understand the PTSD and the depression to know he's hurting Kaladin; and yet he keeps doing it.

tl;dr Lirin's bad at being a father to someone with that kind of clinical depression, but he's useful as a surgeon. He is not overall a terrible person, but more narrowly is, and deserves the vitriol, for calling Kal a monster and a murderer for self-defense.

And @Bigmikey357 pretty much said everything that needed said.

[Frustration]

Wow @Kyn, you feel, very strongly about this.

but you are talking about a lot of speculation as if it was fact.

[Kyn]

Haha, yes, I feel very strongly about this.Though it's more fun if you point out what speculation you're talking about, especially if you have contradictory facts. I thought I was pretty clear in my waffling, saying things like "seems" when it's just supposition, but that doesn't mean I wasn't making illogic leaps anyway.

[Vissy]

I think where Kaladin needed a break from soldiering, Lirin might need a break as well. Consider what he has been done through - losing both of his sons (despite one of them coming back), decades of bullying by Roshone, hostile foreign occupation, all the while NEVER stopping his surgical work which in and of itself is quite tiring. Lirin needs a long break of just being able to relax. And he also needs help. His communication skills clearly aren't the best.

[SecondPlace]

11 hours ago, Kyn said:

 

tl;dr Lirin's bad at being a father to someone with that kind of clinical depression, but he's useful as a surgeon. He is not overall a terrible person, but more narrowly is, and deserves the vitriol, for calling Kal a monster and a murderer for self-defense.

And @Bigmikey357 pretty much said everything that needed said.

It's important to remember that in their current era of medical knowledge, they don't know what clinical depression is. You can"t blame Lirin for not knowing modern-day medical practices that are unknown is his society. Additionally, you should look at this from his point of view, he thinks of his surgery room as "sacred", the fact that Kaladin killed someone in it would have been very painful for Lirin.

[Kyn]

5 hours ago, Truthless16 said:

It's important to remember that in their current era of medical knowledge, they don't know what clinical depression is. You can"t blame Lirin for not knowing modern-day medical practices that are unknown is his society. Additionally, you should look at this from his point of view, he thinks of his surgery room as "sacred", the fact that Kaladin killed someone in it would have been very painful for Lirin.

Yeah, Kaladin killing in Lirin’s shrine was painful for Lirin. The problem is that he took it too personally. It seemed as if he reacted so harshly because he was looking at his son and his legacy rather than at an independent human being, a patient, he knew was in bad shape.

And he did know.

Spoiler

 

Lirin’s earlier cautious movement around Kaladin when Kaladin was huddled on the floor with a surgical knife tells us Lirin knew his son was jumpy, at the least. Kaladin’s recognition of that cautious behavior suggests Lirin had a job-related familiarity with the sort of hypervigilance battle fatigue can cause.

This means Lirin understood that a potential threat was going to get an overreaction out of Kaladin...which means Lirin should have understood that any actual threat was going to get a more violent reaction. 

No, Lirin shouldn’t have been  aware of how hypervigilance can short-circuit the cognitive control centers and the ability to restrain limbic, almost reflexive aggressive reactions to threats. However, what he was shown to know warranted a better response and more leeway than Lirin gave his son.

Lirin even ignored that Kaladin was attacked, instead focusing on Kaladin’s refusal to just back down. Lirin’s response is fictional and far milder, yes, but it echoes emotional valence of the a lot of victim-blaming. It really isn’t okay to tell people they should have just run away, or fought back, or not fought back, or whatever is easier to blame than the situation and the perpetrators of injustice.

 

Lirin chose to ignore his own medical knowledge that Kaladin fighting back was exactly how somebody overcome by battle fatigue would react to what he protected being threatened. Hesina’s scene suggests it is precisely because Kaladin is his son that Lirin instead elected to consider Kaladin a monster, a murderer, and someone itching to kill. And told him so to his face.

Of course I don’t expect Lirin to know what clinical depression is.

Spoiler

 

And of course Lirin’s responses are perfectly human.

Lirin isn’t to be blamed for not figuring out things he couldn’t have known – he’s to be blamed for not figuring out the things he could have, but wasn’t a good enough father to figure out. Or at least, wasn’t sufficiently able to see his son as an individual, as more than just an appendage advancing Lirin’s own dreams.

I expect a good father to recognize the continuity between a son who: as a child, went out of his way to avoid stepping on cremlings; and as an adult, let a man go when it would have been safer to kill him along with the actual threat, thus removing a witness who went on to report the incident almost immediately. Storms, I expect that much of a passably observant random person who witnessed both situations. 

I understand that Lirin was emotional, and felt like his sanctuary had been violated. It’s a perfectly human response, and if he had accused Kaladin of killing, I doubt I’d be as disgusted with Lirin.

But Lirin accused Kaladin of murder.

 

Lirin watched his son attempt to rescue a friend and defuse the situation with no violence, then when this failed, pointedly called Kaladin a monster who just wanted an excuse to kill.
 

Spoiler

 

If it were just that Lirin couldn’t deal with someone being killed in his sanctuary, then why did he specifically get upset that Kaladin didn’t just let the enemies take Teft? It seems like there’s more to this. Lirin’s still trying to force Kaladin to get better at not only accepting the necessity of triage and emotionally distancing himself from those he can’t save, but also bowing to Lirin’s view of who and what is not worth striving to save.

Lirin tried to hold Kaladin back from standing up against Teft’s unknown and unknowable potential fate at the hands of those enemies. He even watched an enemy come at his son with an axe after saying Kaladin was a target. Yet Lirin’s gut reaction was still that his son had just murdered somebody. I suspect this is partly because Kaladin had murdered Lirin’s dreams, for his own future with a son in his image, by refusing to submit.

 

Avoiding inflicting that level of emotional damage on his son in that moment required nothing so implausible as modern mental health expertise.

Spoiler

 

All it required was any one of numerous small decencies. Being empathetic, knowing his son, paying attention to the actual situation rather than his personal sense of betrayal, or many others, any of which would have sufficed to react like a decent human being.

Those first two seem unfair to expect of the person we know Lirin to be, but he’d still be a better person if he were capable of seeing things from his son’s perspective or willing to admit that his son is irreparably more sensitive and reactive than he is.

The third option I offered requires a level of objectivity that might seem possible for Lirin as we know him, but probably wasn’t available in that emotional moment. He had, after all, just seen his son thoroughly reject the proscriptions Lirin imposed on him, not just against violence, but also against any form of fighting back.

But seeing things from Lirin’s point of view just lets us recognize the impetus for what he did, even the reasons. That doesn’t change the impact of his actions, or how cruel even he would have known they were if he had been able to look at them objectively. Yeah, Kaladin’s actions in these scenes were flawed in rationale and execution; but he recognized this, and never stopped considering that he was in the wrong.

Even with added POV scenes later, Lirin still managed to come across as a zealot willing to subject his own son to execution for his cause and the ideal of what he wished his son had been.

 

Again, I understand Lirin’s point of view, and why a person in his position and of his personality would react the way he did. That’s why I think he was excellently-written. But understanding exactly why Lirin behaved as he did, seeing from his perspective, just explains his actions – it doesn’t justify them, or make them more palatable.

[LazarusLong]

20 hours ago, Kyn said:

But saying the redeeming qualities don't balance out the good lessons and deeds is very different from saying there are none.

Saying Lirin's profession was pointless was exaggeration. However, this is literally a Lirin hate thread so I think the exaggeration is necessary and completely based. My actual belief is that Lirin is overall a net negative influence on the world because the mental trouble he foists onto Kaladin causes Kal to save less people than Lirin actually saves through his surgery. It would be better for Roshar if Lirin was a non-existent Japanese salaryman dad rather than the weirdo he is.

In simpler, cliché terms for the simple person who only speaks in clichés in this thread, Lirin does more harm than good.

Edited January 8, 2021 by LazarusLong

[GriffinMaze]

F*ck Lirin. Such an asshole and bad parent

[NameIess]

7 minutes ago, GriffinMaze said:

F*ck Lirin. Such an asshole and bad parent

You must hate Dalinar.

[GriffinMaze]

10 minutes ago, Nameless said:

You must hate Dalinar.

Also an asshole and a bad parent. But no I don't hate him for all the obvious reason

[NameIess]

2 minutes ago, GriffinMaze said:

Also an asshole and a bad parent. But no I don't hate him for all the obvious reason

Okay. As long as you hate Dalinar for the same reasons you hate Lirin, I'm fine with it.

[Kyn]

3 hours ago, LazarusLong said:

Saying Lirin's profession was pointless was exaggeration. However, this is literally a Lirin hate thread so I think the exaggeration is necessary and completely based. My actual belief is that Lirin is overall a net negative influence on the world because the mental trouble he foists onto Kaladin causes Kal to save less people than Lirin actually saves through his surgery. It would be better for Roshar if Lirin was a non-existent Japanese salaryman dad rather than the weirdo he is.

So, right, I’m sorry my argumentative style doesn’t mesh with yours. I like going over points of an argument in exhaustive detail, and being nitpicky about wording. I like having people disagree with my points using their own arguments and nitpickiness. I like arguing using logos and ethos, but I tend toward this sort of exaggeration, myself, since pathos is kind of a default mode.

I totally agree with your point, but I find it incomparably stronger the way you put it here than when it was exaggerated despite being perfectly well-supported without the exaggeration. Tons of other people were surely happy with the original way you said it, and even agreed vehemently with your point above about exaggeration. I assume there’s room for both takes.

Still, it’s not surprising at least one person specifically took issue with the exaggeration. That’s why hyperbole is better at evoking feelings, and not, well, arguing. When the argument’s style is extreme, people tend to latch onto the style rather than the argument itself. Just like my walls of text mean most people will be happier to disagree (or ignore) without actually reading my argument, your auxesis means some people will be focus on discounting the style rather than the substance.

But...

3 hours ago, LazarusLong said:

In simpler, cliché terms for the simple person who only speaks in clichés in this thread, Lirin does more harm than good.

 …Wow, cool, nice to know this isn’t a personal attack against other people in the thread. Oh, wait.

Welp, I’d be sure I’ve earned it, I’m pretty obnoxious. But that wasn’t (just) directed at me, and it’s kind of impolite to sound like you might be lambasting the whole thread instead of narrowly calling out a specific person who bothers you. Not that the other way’s very polite either.

I kind of thought Lirin was the one we were meant to be attacking, here. I mean, I think with good reason, but it’s not a [Support] thread, so I came in expecting to get arguments.