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Lirin Hate Thread

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On 18/11/2020 at 1:55 PM, IntentAwesome said:

But being willing to just hand your son over for execution?!

Doesn't he tell Hesina later, when she chews him out for it, that he wouldn't have done that? I thought in that conversation he revealed that he was just talking out of anger. 

 

100% Kal deserves better from both parents though.

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I don't hate Lirin, I just don't like him. His best version was in WoK flashbacks, and even then he had some growth to do. Afterwards he just regressed further with every book. 

I disagree with people who say that Lirin and Kaladin are both wrong and only willing to see their paths. That is certainly the case with Lirin, but one of Kaladin's biggest issues is that he thinks his father is right. Kaladin believes his father's path is the correct one, which is where a big dose of his depression comes from, from believing he is walking the wrong path. 

On 20/11/2020 at 6:01 AM, Sparks said:

2) Lirin was Kaladin when he was younger.  He was the Dark-eyed rebel rising above his station to challenge authority and the social order in Hearthstone.   Lirin was the one that was going to take his superior intellect and training, even as a darkeyed citizen, save a bunch of people's lives and fight injustice and inequity.  Only Lirin now blames his sticking his neck out directly with getting his family torn apart and devastated with Roshone.  

I loved your post, since you are right and it made me think. Part of Lirin's problem is his inability to see. Lirin was a rebellious darkeyes who got beating back by the system. His son was a rebellious darkeyes who melted the system. Lirin cannot draw false equivalences between Kaladin and himself in his youth, since there is nothing similar in their experiences. If Kaladin were to ask to be trained as a general and eventually control a large swath of the coalition armies and lands he would be granted that. Kaladin has a level of power (even if he probably won't use most of it) which is only exceeded by a handful of people.

As such the challanges which broke Lirin are not even an issue any more for Kaladin, and Lirin can't expect his son to end like he did because its impossible. If his son ends broken it will be by very different circumstances. Lirin realizes that when he says something like "We are little people, we can't do anything", and notices that is not true when it comes to his son, but he doesn't bother to internalize that knowledge, just continues on his way acting the same way. 

On 22/11/2020 at 1:21 AM, Sasja2112 said:

Doesn't he tell Hesina later, when she chews him out for it, that he wouldn't have done that? I thought in that conversation he revealed that he was just talking out of anger. 

If I remember right Lirin says he wouldn't have let Kaladin to die, but he sort of agrees he would have brought him down and let the Fused see him.

In my opinion Lirin's greatest fault (other than not emotionally supporting his son) is how naive he is is. He is convinced nothing bad will happen to the KR when they are captured by the Fused. Two elite warriors of a conflict he knows very little about. He decides that he will hand Kaladin over, assuming that he won't be killed since the other KR unconscious weren't killed. Not bothering to think that maybe they will make an exception for Kaladin, since he is not an average KR. He is the first Windrunner, he is maybe the most iconic KR of all, he didn't fall unconscious and kept sabotaging the Singer forces in Urithiru, he was being hunted by a powerful and insane Fused. Did he honestly believe "nothing bad would happen" to his son? Or did he just not care enough?

Lirin's statement that Kaladin should have been a good slave was a huge slap in the face out of complete ignorance. Perhaps Lirin has the personality which would allow him to be the perfect slave, happy without rights, freedom or a voice (doubtful), but for people like Kaladin it was death as surely as a spear to the gut. Much like caging a lion. He couldn't be a good slave without eventual suicide any more that he could kill his own father. 

Hesina was indeed also a disappointment. Seems she used all her willpower by going against her family and marrying Lirin, and has none left over. I expected Lirin to be a problem for Kaladin since WoR, but I was sure Hesina would rise up. Alas, she did not. 

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Don't know if this has been covered yet, but as someone who's mother has told him "you're the reason I drink," and "you're just like your father," when Lirin told kaladin at the end of pt 2 that he is a monster, I lost all respect. If he doesn't apologize for that at some point (I'm not done with the book yet), he tops moash as my worst character. 

There are just things you do not say to your child. 

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Maybe hate is too strong a word to use in this regard. I was definitely frustrated with him from part one, mostly because of the obvious similarities between him and Kaladin, and yet in spite of that they couldn't understand each other. When Lirin was being shown his new workspace in the tower, he only seemed elated after Kaladin informed him of his forced retirement. I don't doubt that Lirin wanted only what's best for his son but it goes to show how little that helps when he didn't bother to truly see and acknowledge the type of person Kal has become. In a way it almost looked like Lirin was willing to show fatherly affection only when Kaladin behaved the way his father wanted him to, not when he was being himself. Even when Kaladin tells him that he's suffering from depression, he seems unwilling to accept it (likely because he's afraid of the fact that this is a condition a surgeon can't treat).

I can understand why Lirin is so determined to avoid any type of confrontation. Beyond his vow of do no harm as a surgeon, he's convinced that him rebelling against Roshone is what caused the death of Tien (and for a time Kaladin too I believe). However that doesn't mean I approve of him emotionally shunning his son. His stubborn refusal of putting in the effort to simply try and understand his son, let alone support him is frustrating to say the least. Hesina chewing him out in her interlude chapter was necessary, though I would agree with some posters that she should have done so much earlier. In the end I do agree with her though, it's not about being proven right or wrong but about seeing and understanding why Kaladin fights, which I believe Lirin does realise in the end. Overall I thought this conflict was handled well. Lirin's struggle felt believable to me.

Spoiler

If I had one complaint (apart from Hesina not interfering sooner) it's that I would have liked Kaladin and Lirin to have a proper heart-to-heart once all the tension died down.



On a side note part of me was intrigued to find out a bit more about Hesina's father and his conflict with Lirin. Might be yet another reason why Lirin frowns upon fighting so much. Would love to find out more about Kaladin's maternal grandfather. I'm not convinced we'll actualy see him in book 5 but maybe he'll make and appearance in the later half of the series.

Sorry if all this comes off as repetitive. I'm certain other posters have pointed out similar things but I just wanted to add my two cents.

 

Edited by TheHidelSubldies
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I have to admit I did resent Lirin in the middle of the book but I came around in the end, just as he did (kinda). I mean. There's others I can project all my hatred onto (and I do with PASSIONlol)

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I absolutely hate Lirin and no ones mental gymnastics or rationalizations will convince me otherwise. Dude is a coward and a fool

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So I've now finished the book. I don't hate Lirin. He did apologize, though it took his son literally saving his life to do so. 

I don't hate him. But I do think he's a bad person. Also, maybe new odiums champion. Definitely something I could see. 

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I have a father very much like that, so here is my perspective: he has great and far reaching ideals, and he feels he knows how the world "should" be and wants to prove to himself and others it is possible, and an important way of proving it is through his children. So when his children choose a different path, it's not just an average disappointment, he feels like his most important dreams are crushing down and feels betrayed and feels life doesn't make sense. He is also, because of his past, very afraid of chaos, and wants to control things strictly to avoid that chaos; that makes him rigid and makes him have a tunnel vision. He cannot easily see the need of people to be different, to experiment and make mistakes. So he feels that people who don't share exactly the same values (even if they share many) are faulty, weak, or deliberately malicious.

I know I put a lot of my own experience into it, but this is what I know from real life.

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I definitely hated Lirin post Oathbringer especially after Chapter 1 & 2 in the previews of RoW. It slightly annoyed me how many people still called him being an Edgedancer with the way he treated Kaladin. I found him to be really self centered and outright dismissive of Kaladin. Reading RoW only made my impression of him worse. 

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8 hours ago, GameOfGroans said:

I have a father very much like that, so here is my perspective: he has great and far reaching ideals, and he feels he knows how the world "should" be and wants to prove to himself and others it is possible, and an important way of proving it is through his children. So when his children choose a different path, it's not just an average disappointment, he feels like his most important dreams are crushing down and feels betrayed and feels life doesn't make sense. He is also, because of his past, very afraid of chaos, and wants to control things strictly to avoid that chaos; that makes him rigid and makes him have a tunnel vision. He cannot easily see the need of people to be different, to experiment and make mistakes. So he feels that people who don't share exactly the same values (even if they share many) are faulty, weak, or deliberately malicious.

I know I put a lot of my own experience into it, but this is what I know from real life.

I agree with all of this. Plus, I think he hasn’t really been able to reconcile who Kaladin used to be with who he is now. Lirin pushed Kaladin to become a surgeon during his childhood and finally felt like he had won and convinced him, right before Roshone took both him and Tien away. When Kaladin finally came back, he had become everything Lirin feared for him when he had childhood aspirations of being a soldier: he was now a killer and had suffered the horrible emotional trauma of war. Kaladin also made a tremendous effort to not share the full scope of his problems with his parents so they legitimately didn’t know how much his experiences and struggles had affected him. We, as readers know, but all they saw was their son become a soldier, a Radiant, someone who fought bravely and inspired others. 
 

I agree that Lirin is often petty, self centered, and emotionally abusive to Kaladin but I think his attitude all comes from his broken dreams, inability to readjust to the new reality, and rigid adherence to pacifistic beliefs. By the end of RoW, he has started down the path of listening to others ideas/beliefs and seeing how much his son had positively changed. I hope that in book 5, they can continue getting to know each other as adults and modify their relationship accordingly. 

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On 18.11.2020 at 8:53 PM, lordofsoup said:

Lirin is a coward because he cannot make a hard choice.  He chose a single option for every situation and might as well be a robot.

I would call this having principles. Kaladin also has principles. Dalinar has principles, Adolin has them and struggles with his father's principles...

I have a theory that maybe Lirin once did kill and regrets it and did everything in his power to make sure his children can be better people than him. And when that fails he is angry at himself / the unfairness of life and lashes out at Kaladin. Or maybe he simply is a pacifist who is disappointed in his son. It is also pretty normal behaviour to be disappointed when you worked hard to get a point across a ong time - and someone as close to you as a child just seems unable to see / understand it. I appreciate that, and the fact that Lirin is not simply a distant paragon of virtue, in kaladin's memory (that is how I perceived him in WoK), but a family member in conflict with his son. These conflicts make characters, stories, and books human. Lirin could also be consideret a robot if he was in soft-spoken, harmonic, mindlessly supportive mode all the time.

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Lirin hater +1.

Hope this emotional abusive coward end up as a chasmfiend's dump.

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On 11/20/2020 at 11:40 AM, Bliev said:

Seeing Lirin hold the same guilt Kal does over Tien, but also feel guilty about Kal? It's not hard

Wouldn't it be an interesting scene if Kaladin were to share with Lirin his vision of Tien?

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The problem I see with Lirin is that he chose a viewpoint that physical violence is always wrong, and now he refuses to grow or change from there. Sure, jumping straight to aggression is bad, and you should avoid that. But you should also maybe not let yourself be conquered by an army of insane Fused led by a god intent on destroying your civilization. Also, it's just not acceptable to treat your son the way he does, and getting some face paint isn't going to help much.

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the thing about lirin is, in any other circumstance he's right.

for all his life he's seen useless wars between the highprinces, with empty excuses. the lighteyes were playing risk with the lives of men. not wanting to have anything to do with it is right. it's the only correct recourse.

then the singers take over. and they actually administer more fairly than the lighteyes. why would you ever possibly want to fight to reinstate the corrupt leaders? it makes no sense. it does not make the world any better, even if you win.

now, lirin is missing that those singers are controlled by an evil god whose long term plan involves killing everyone. in this specific case, he's wrong.

but he's seen the same pattern all his life. and his take on it was spot on. can you blame him for not seeing him at first, the one time he was actually wrong?

as for the "you're not my son", this is not some corrupt ceo disgruntled because his son decided to leave everything and become an artist instead of inheriting the family business. no, lirin son had just killed a person, and endangered others. and not even particularly for protection; teft was going to be taken prisoner, and no harm was being done to him. as far as kaladin and lirin knew, teft was in no danger. yes, in retrospect kaladin was right, but there was no way to know it in advance. from lirin's perspective, kaladin had shown, time and again, that when presented with problems, killing people is one of his first resorts.

we are used to reading stories where there is a clearly good and clearly bad side. sure, there is some moral greyness, the people on the good side are not perfect and the people on the bad side are misguided, or have understandable motivations, but ultimately, there is a clear distinction between right and wrong. so we are used to the answer, fighting is the right option.

the real world is rarely so clear-cut. it had been on occasions, like when the free world fought the nazis, but it's generally more grey. and perhaps more important, violence is not the only solution, and often it's not the best solution. think of batman; he built an expensive high tech suit and used his vast resources to fight crime, and it works; but if he'd spent the same money and resources to improve lives in the slums and solve social issues, he'd have prevented crimes even more effectively. only in fiction the first resort to anything must be violence.

now go back to lirin. he's been ruled by tyrants all his life. now he's invaded by some new people, nothing new there, just those new people have marbled skin, and sometimes carapace. can you blame lirin for assuming that those people were no worse than the previous leaders? for thinking that peaceful cooperation was more likely to do good than fighting to the last? had the singers done any worse in conquering alethkar than the kholins did when they conquered it? no, in fact they did considerably better; then should we not get mad at kaladin for joining amaram's army instead of mounting a resistance against the kholins, warlords and conquerors?

 

Finally, I am astonished that anyone would call lirin a coward. he could escape, get away from problems, but he remained every time to protect the people. deliberately choosing to not fight back, to put yourself at the mercy of others because you refuse to do violence, takes more bravery than fighting.

kaladin is an amazing combatant and keeps winning; it doesn't take much bravery to bring out a weapon and fight when you know you're the best. it's easy. facing an armed opponent and trying to calm him down, giving up on defending yourself, that entails a much greater risk.

 

Edited by king of nowhere
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Lirin is a bad father, a bit of a coward, and deeply traumatized.  He isn't malicious.  He isn't hateful.  He's just a weak man dealing with overwhelming emotions very badly.  

That's my take anyway.  

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It's a little bit weird that in a book containing Moash and the literal embodiment(s) of divine hatred that a surgeon that does nothing but pro-bono work is so hated:

Quote

“Very well.” Kaladin reached into his pocket to get the spheres as the old apothecary continued, “You surgeons, all the same. Never give a blink to consider where your supplies come from. You just use them like there will be no end.”

“You can’t put a price on a person’s life,” Kaladin said. One of his father’s sayings. It was the main reason that Lirin had never charged for his services.

Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 260). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

I have to assume there's a bit of the uncanny valley effect going on here, where Lirin is so close to being a hero that his flaws end up standing out more than in someone more villanous. But let's not confuse 'not perfect' with 'evil scum'.

Couple of refutations:

1) Lirin doesn't change: Of course he does. This is his entire arc in the book. That's what the shash face painting near the end is all about: Lirin may disagree with Kaladin's methods, but he's still able to support his son. Initially, he's unable to decouple those two things (where he thinks that by support Kaladin, he has to compromise his principles); learning that they are not intrinsically the same thing is the big realization for Lirin. It turns out Lirin is stubborn and self-righteous (so, basically Kaladin); he's also able to acknowledge being wrong given data and time:

Quote

“You want me to acknowledge,” Lirin whispered, “that what Kaladin’s doing is helping that man, while my surgeon’s treatments could have done nothing.”

“You said you’d listen,” she said. “You asked what I want of you? I want you to talk to them, Lirin. The people in this room. Don’t challenge them. Don’t argue with them. Simply ask them why they wear that glyph. And see them, Lirin. Please.”

She left him standing there and returned to her maps. Trusting in him, and the man she knew he was.

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

Quote

“What is this?” Kaladin asked.

Lirin remembered, with some embarrassment, what he’d finally let that one-armed fool Noril do to him. A painted shash glyph on Lirin’s forehead.

“I figured,” Lirin said, “that if an entire tower was going to show faith in my son, I could maybe try to do the same. I’m sorry, son. For my part.” He reached up and brushed aside Kaladin’s hair to see the brand there.

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

2) Lirin is a bad father: So are all fathers...at least some of the time. Look at Dalinar's interaction with Adolin and Renarin, or Gavilar with Jasnah and Elhokar, or even more so, the Davars. it's just so weird to call Lirin unilaterally a bad father; I don't know who he is being compared to, but his parenting is actually very good, and Kaladin clearly calls back to the things he learned from Lirin (both actual lessons and just by osmosis):

Quote

“Look at that! Who cares for them? Not Sadeas. Not their fellow bridgemen. I doubt even the Heralds themselves spare a thought for these.

“I won’t stand there and watch while men die behind me. We have to be better than that! We can’t look away like the lighteyes, pretending we don’t see. This man is one of us. Just like Dunny was.

“The lighteyes talk about honor. They spout empty claims about their nobility. Well, I’ve only known one man in my life who was a true man of honor. He was a surgeon who would help anyone, even those who hated him. Especially those who hated him. Well, we’re going to show Gaz, and Sadeas, Hashal, and any other sodden fool who cares to watch, what he taught me. Now go to work and stop complaining!”

Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (pp. 745-746). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

Kaladin is the Child of Honor, indeed.

3) Lirin is crazy for trying to make peace with the Fused! Except this is literally what Kaladin also does:

Quote

“We must curb the Voidbringer assault,” Jasnah said. “We can’t let them secure too great a foothold.”

“The parshmen aren’t our enemies,” Kaladin said softly.

...

“Of course they’re our enemies,” Jasnah said. “They’re in the process of conquering the world. Even if your report indicates they aren’t as immediately destructive as we feared, they are still an enormous threat.”

“They just want to live better lives,” Kaladin said.

“I can believe,” Jasnah said, “that the common parshmen have such a simple motive. But their leaders? They will pursue our extinction.”

...

“Great,” Kaladin said. “Fine. Let’s fight them, then. Why do the common folk have to get crushed in the process?”

“Perhaps,” Jasnah said, “you should visit my uncle’s vision and see for yourself the consequences of a soft heart. Firsthand witness of a Desolation might change your perspective.”

“I’ve seen war, Brightness. I’m a soldier. Problem is, Ideals have expanded my focus. I can’t help but see the common men among the enemy. They’re not monsters.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 413). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

One can make a very reasonable argument that the entirety of Kaladin's arc throughout the series is him becoming his father.

First Ideal - Life before death: This is the essence of Lirin's morality. In a very real sense, no one embodies these particular Words better than Lirin.

Second Ideal - Protect those that can't protect themselves: This is again what Lirin does, through medicine and surgery rather than a spear. There are a lot of ways of protecting people, and Lirin's version is to provide free medical care to people who wouldn't otherwise be able to afford it or have access to it.

Third Ideal - Protect even those he hates: Check above quote about Lirin from Kaladin. Learning this is essentially the entirety of WoR for Kaladin. It's something he can't do at the beginning of WoR, but has to learn to progress, both as a Windrunner and just as a moral being.

Quote

There was one more sliver of tusk, jutting from a muscle inside the wound. Right beside that muscle thumped the femoral artery, the largest in the leg. Lirin reached in with his knife, carefully cutting free the sliver of tusk. Then he paused for a moment, the edge of his blade just hairs from the artery.

If that were cut … Kaladin thought. Roshone would be dead in minutes. He was only alive right now because the tusk had missed the artery.

Lirin’s normally steady hand quivered. Then he glanced up at Kaladin. He withdrew the knife without touching the artery, then reached in with his tongs to pull the sliver free. He tossed it aside, then calmly reached for his thread and needle.

.... 

“I saw inside a man today,” Kaladin finally said.

“Not for the first time,” Lirin said, “and certainly not for the last. I’m proud of you. I expected to find you here crying, as you usually do when we lose a patient. You’re learning.”

“When I said I saw inside a man,” Kaladin said, “I wasn’t talking about the wounds.”

Lirin didn’t respond for a moment. “I see.”

“You would have let him die if I hadn’t been there, wouldn’t you?”

Silence.

“Why didn’t you?” Kaladin said. “It would have solved so much!”

“It wouldn’t have been letting him die. It would have been murdering him.”

...

Lirin had a distant look in his eyes. “Somebody has to start. Somebody has to step forward and do what is right, because it is right. If nobody starts, then others cannot follow. The lighteyes do their best to kill themselves, and to kill us. The others still haven’t brought back Alds and Milp. Roshone just left them there.”

...

“The lighteyes don’t care about life,” Lirin said. “So I must. That’s another reason why I wouldn’t have let Roshone die, even if you hadn’t been there. Though looking at you did strengthen me.”

Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 585). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

At the end of the scene, Kaladin decides that he could have killed Roshone. This is something he has to grow out of, as we see throughout WoR and (in his interactions with Roshone) in RoW.

Fourth Ideal - Accept he can't protect everyone: This is something we see Lirin stress to Kaladin multiple times in his flashbacks. One quote (though there are many):

Quote

“They made the choice,” Syl said. “You can’t take that from them.”

Kaladin knelt, struggling with his grief.

You have to learn when to care, son. His father’s voice. And when to let go. You’ll grow calluses.

He never had. Storm him, he never had. It was why he’d never made a good surgeon. He couldn’t lose patients.

And now, now he killed? Now he was a soldier? How did that make any sense? He hated how good he was at killing.

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 383). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

The series from Kaladin's perspective is literally him becoming his dad. Who might be figuratively if not literally Honor. Basically, it's weird to hate Lirin when one considers that he's essentially Kaladin's Ideal. Is Lirin perfect? No. But it's easy to make an argument that, at his best, he's the best example of a moral person in the entire series.

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The point is, Kaladin was having major difficulties utilizing the surges while trying to save Lirin's sorry ass. Lirin, on the other hand, had little to no contribution in this book. It seemed that his only use was to be saved by a son who he emotionally abused.

Also, Lirin IS A COWARD, for he is not only obsessed with his fragile, unrealistic hope for peace, but that in the entire book, the only one he dared to be harsh to was Kaladin, who, of course would never harm his own father in spite of the latter being a huge jerk. 

If SA is ever to be adapted as a live action or even an animated series, Lirin will sure as hell get more hate than he is currently receiving.

Edited by MONARCH
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7 hours ago, Seloun said:

The series from Kaladin's perspective is literally him becoming his dad. Who might be figuratively if not literally Honor. Basically, it's weird to hate Lirin when one considers that he's essentially Kaladin's Ideal. Is Lirin perfect? No. But it's easy to make an argument that, at his best, he's the best example of a moral person in the entire series.

I love this analysis, thank you. I think Lirin is only getting the hate he is because so for so many, Kaladin is their favorite and even their avatar in this series. Perhaps I can see this connection more because Kaladin isn't my favorite character and so I am not wrapped up so much in his emotions. Lirin made mistakes in how he interacted with his son. He acted poorly. But Kaladin also made mistakes. And this book really showed them doing the work to be less stubborn and dogmatic and more understanding of one another, while also not compromising their own principles. It was really well done, I think.

In fact, Dalinar could learn a lot from Lirin here in how he accepts Adolin. Because if you want to talk about bad fathers...

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6 hours ago, MONARCH said:

The point is, Kaladin was having major difficulties utilizing the surges while trying to save Lirin's sorry ass. Lirin, on the other hand, had little to no contribution in this book. It seemed that his only use was to be saved by a son who he emotionally abused.

Also, Lirin IS A COWARD, for he is not only obsessed with his fragile, unrealistic hope for peace, but that in the entire book, the only one he dared to be harsh to was Kaladin, who, of course would never harm his own father in spite of the latter being a huge jerk. 

If SA is ever to be adapted as a live action or even an animated series, Lirin will sure as hell get more hate than he is currently receiving.

I disagree he is a coward he stays firm in his beliefs and continues to heal people in occupations. He never runs away from his problems. Just because he's not a moral-relativist doesn't mean his point of view is wrong in general. He doesn't care what creed, class, race, or eye color he trys to heal. He's just not that emotionally smart and has trauma too. Yes Lirin could've totally handled his relationship with Kal a whole lot better. Yes he is somewhat of a jerk. Do I like him maybe, maybe not. I think at the very least he is well-written and I can relate to the dynamics between him and Kal. Can any of y'all believe we somehow predicted Lirin to die but not Teft?

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4 hours ago, Bliev said:

I love this analysis, thank you. I think Lirin is only getting the hate he is because so for so many, Kaladin is their favorite and even their avatar in this series.

 

I think it has to do with a certain part of our culture being related to war and combat, and equating bravery with guns. it reminds me of the battle of hacksaw ridge, where the protagonist is a military medic who wants to go in battle unarmed, and he is dubbed a coward by his mates. only after he runs out from cover amid the bullets and explosion to help wounded they realize he is the most brave of them all.

in my opinion lirin is getting the same kind of flak. he won't fight, so he's coward. never mind that he's willingly putting himself in more danger by his actions.

 

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I haven't even started reading it yet, I'm just so happy that this thread exists. I've long maintained that Lirin is the worst dad in the Cosmere and all RoW did was hammer about 10 nales into that coffin. I'm excited to read the hate. 

Lirin. Is. The. Worst.

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Did you all miss that Lirin put the damn shash glyph on his head?

The only way I could hate Lirin is if I also hated my own father and accept that my kids will hate me. I learned long ago that my father is a good, flawed man who didn't know how to handle a piece of him forcibly breaking itself away from him, and I've learned to love him for it. I see that in Lirin. And so does Kaladin.

Does anyone remember why Tien was sent off to war? Why both his kids went off to war? Lirin does.

Edited by Leuthie
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21 minutes ago, NotBurtReynolds said:

I haven't even started reading it yet, I'm just so happy that this thread exists. I've long maintained that Lirin is the worst dad in the Cosmere and all RoW did was hammer about 10 nales into that coffin. I'm excited to read the hate. 

Lirin. Is. The. Worst.

That's a hot take. I'd prefer Lirin over almost every cosmere dad.  Yes he is bad at communication and was unnecessarly hard on Kal but Oh boy you'd take Straff over him? You'd take Dedalin over him? I think the visceral hate is because the things Lirin does poorly is more relatable to most of but he's not the worst dad in the Cosmere. 

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13 minutes ago, USS bridge four said:

That's a hot take. I'd prefer Lirin over almost every cosmere dad.  Yes he is bad at communication and was unnecessarly hard on Kal but Oh boy you'd take Straff over him? You'd take Dedalin over him? I think the visceral hate is because the things Lirin does poorly is more relatable to most of but he's not the worst dad in the Cosmere. 

I think the only good Cosmere dad we've seen is Dalinar, and that took shardic intervention.

Edited by Nesh
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