Lirin Hate Thread

[Person]

So, it seems like a ton of people just really, really hate Lirin. I am one of those people. I mean, he thinks that his way is the only way, and everyone else is a bad person. When Kaladin gets relieved from duty, Lirin is all "I told you it was the right way". Then, he basically disowned Kaladin after he killed that Regal to protect Teft. 

I just don't like Lirin. What about you guys?

Edited November 18, 2020 by Person

[Shakakakakaka]

Have you finished the book?

[SomeRandomPeasant]

I can understand why people hate Lirin, just like I understand why people hate Shallan, even if I don’t agree with them.  Characters that we read about, are often pretty unlikable if we met them in real life.  However, I think the important thing is that good characters can still be pretty unlikable people while still being well written characters.

I have immense appreciation for the Kaladin and Lirin relationship, even if it seems that not many people do.  You are right that Lirin is pretty inconsiderate on a personal level.  He is completely convinced that what he is doing is right.  But even though he isn’t “nice” per se, he is trying to do the best he can.  Just like Kaladin.  Father and son are not bad people.  They have different approaches when it comes to helping others, and both approaches are worth exploring.  They are both pretty ornery true, but they are also both moral and empathetic.  I really like that both of them arn’t presented as objectively correct in their opinions.  I know Sanderson likes to write about relationships in which both characters aren't exactly wrong, but they aren't exactly right eiter.  Characters that are heavily flawed may not be as overtly likable as an overly perfect hero protagonist, but character flaws give characters depth.  Characters like Sand dan Glokta(First Law), Lord Vetinari (Discworld), Walter White(Breaking Bad), and Hans Landa(Inglorious Bastards), are all really nasty people (Although I still LOVE Sand dan Glokta and Lord Vetinari) but they are strong characters because of thier flaws. 

You don’t have to like a character to appreciate their character arc.  I can understand you despising Lirin, but I still think he is a well written character.  

Edited November 18, 2020 by SomeRandomPeasant

[Leuthie]

Lirin is an extremely good man.

The problem is, we always see him from the point of view of his son. A son breaking away from a strong father is one of the most difficult things to watch, much less be a part of. If the break isn't managed properly and both participants are strong, hard headed and bad communicators, the breakaway might never be completed and the two end up carrying the fight for the rest of their lives. When you see this battle from a single point of view, the other side can look almost evil. I've been on both sides. None of us were evil or even bad people. 

Lirin is trying his best for the only son he has left; a son that he doesn't really know very well anymore and is horrible at dealing with people he loves. Cut the man some slack.

[IntentAwesome]

I appreciate Lirin’s character and development, and I do love that Sanderson is really diving into the father/son relationship. In the end, he showed progress and some capacity to understand a perspective other than his own. 

But being willing to just hand your son over for execution?!

And Hesina! She seemed so passive about her defense of Kaladin. She did not stand up for in that moment when her husband is suggesting they just let him die?!? She eventually got through to Lirin, but it just seemed like Kaladin deserved better from both his parents. 
 

 

[lordofsoup]

Lirin is a coward because he cannot make a hard choice.  He chose a single option for every situation and might as well be a robot.

[Subvisual Haze]

Brandon seems to have developed a bit of a sadistic pleasure in piling tragedy and sadness on Kaladin.  So it's only natural that Lirin had to openly call Kal a monster.

[IcaroRibeiro]

He's so annoying. By far my least favorite character in this book 

Edited November 18, 2020 by IcaroRibeiro

[Chaos]

@Person Would you like to put a topic title of [Support] or [Discuss] in the topic title? You can read about these here: https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/93197-introducing-topic-tags-support-and-discuss/

Normally I'd think "hate threads" would be more of a [Support] thing, but you also asked people what they think, so it could go with [Discuss]. Anyway, just wanted to throw that out there for you, if you'd like to include that!

 

[King Aragorn of Gondor]

I hate Lirin.

That's all there is to it.  He thinks his opinion is always the right one, and while we did see some redemption from him in the last few chapters, it wasn't enough for me to get over the fact that I hate him.

[SecondPlace]

I think that while Lirin is by no means perfect he is doing the best he can, he does not like killing and shaming him for that is a little silly.

[the_archduke]

19 hours ago, Leuthie said:

 

Lirin is trying his best for the only son he has left; 

Oroden goes and cries in the corner. 

[Branf]

So I have a podcast with a friend of mine where we rate fictional dads on their parenting skills (niche I know) and I did Dalinar, Gavilar and Lirin just before Rhythm of War came out. I want to go back and re-record because I really dislike Lirin now a lot more than I did before, I was hoping he'd grow a lot in this book but it's clear he still has a long way to go even after his little change of heart at the end.

You can try and instill the values and ideals you see as important in your children, but once they are adults you have to accept them as who they are and who they turned out to be. Anything else is just going to hurt them.

Besides his relationship with Kaladin I also massively disagree with his stance on pacifism. He needs a way more nuanced understanding of what violence is, its not just physical harm, and I think it's quite childish to put physical violence on a pedastal as the worst possible thing ever that trumps all other considerations including pschological harm/poverty/slavery etc.

[Ramona Tehradin]

Lirin is heavily emotionally constipated, something I genuinely witness along medical personals but you're right, I do hold severe dislike for this character. That's the best thing about Sanderson that he wrote a character whom we could hate. 

Despite the fact that Kaladin tries hard to overcome his depression and battle fatigue and make himself an apprentice of Surgeon to continue learning medicine but then calling your own son a good slave is not going to earn you good parenting points. Far from it. Kaladin's second ideal came remembering his father but Lirin...I don't know he has this self-inferiority complex which manifests in form of impassive self-rumination that is projected in moral dilemma to handle your child's reverence among people. Lirin contradicts his own points that he doesn't care who is what but at the same time submits discord for Kaladin being a solder and saving lives which involves killing. Didn't Lirin order to not work on Roshone's son because he would die? 

What ripped me was when he said Kaladin was a monster while trying to protect Teft from the Stormform Singer. I am like---I so so hate you Lirin. 

But yeah, even Hesina is rather stuck behind and silent. We don't know anything about her but she sacrificed a lot of things to marry Lirin but then when Lirin was like yeah, lets shove Kaladin to Fused-pit because I've disowned him--what the freaking heck? Your son who is half without his powers is trying to protect the tower and its people and you want to have him killed? 

Nope. There you are. Nothing can come around even though your paint shash glyph on your forehead because I expect Lirin to return back to his colors in Book 5. Guess what, I hope we don't see much of him in book 5. That would be surgically healthy for all. 

 

[+Bliev]

I don't hate Lirin. He's trying to protect Kaladin in his own way, and has his own pain and guilt he's bearing for Tien's death, as we see in this book. He loves Kaladin, but much like Kal himself, he wants to protect him and can't understand why Kal won't just let him do that. No, he's not a brave man. But not everyone has to be brave. Most people aren't, particularly in the face of fear and despair. We saw our favorite Radiants having to deal with that same issue throughout this book, and they have the supernatural to help them understand and move forward.

I pity Lirin, and I did hate how he lashed out at Kaladin. But it didn't make me hate him as a person, it made me understand him. He was scared and trying to do what he knew to keep people safe, and he thought he and Kal were on the same page and then--murder. And let's be honest, there was a grain of truth to what Lirin said to Kal at that moment--he *didn't* know that they were going to execute the Radiants, and indeed, they didn't at first. And  he *did* put his whole family at risk, and they'd all be dead if it weren't for Venli/Leshwi's mercy. So, yeah, I'm going to say that this is way more grey  for me than for others, but I've been saying that for awhile about their relationship--which I think was strengthened as I'd hoped in this book. They both understand each other much better.

[King Aragorn of Gondor]

8 hours ago, Branf said:

So I have a podcast with a friend of mine where we rate fictional dads on their parenting skills (niche I know) and I did Dalinar, Gavilar and Lirin just before Rhythm of War came out. I want to go back and re-record because I really dislike Lirin now a lot more than I did before, I was hoping he'd grow a lot in this book but it's clear he still has a long way to go even after his little change of heart at the end.

You can try and instill the values and ideals you see as important in your children, but once they are adults you have to accept them as who they are and who they turned out to be. Anything else is just going to hurt them.

Besides his relationship with Kaladin I also massively disagree with his stance on pacifism. He needs a way more nuanced understanding of what violence is, its not just physical harm, and I think it's quite childish to put physical violence on a pedastal as the worst possible thing ever that trumps all other considerations including pschological harm/poverty/slavery etc.

Could you maybe link me the podcast episodes?  They sound really interesting!!!

[Sparks]

This is my take on Lirin. I didn't approve or like Lirin's choices in regards to his reactions and actions regarding Kaladin, but I temper it with two things:

1) Lirin is carrying some PTSD-like baggage for Tien's death and Kaladin's assumed-death (until very recently), which is coloring every interaction he has with Kaladin.

2) Lirin was Kaladin when he was younger.  He was the Dark-eyed rebel rising above his station to challenge authority and the social order in Hearthstone.   Lirin was the one that was going to take his superior intellect and training, even as a darkeyed citizen, save a bunch of people's lives and fight injustice and inequity.  Only Lirin now blames his sticking his neck out directly with getting his family torn apart and devastated with Roshone.  

[Branf]

9 hours ago, Aragorn said:

Could you maybe link me the podcast episodes?  They sound really interesting!!!

https://soundcloud.com/user-223827617

Here you go!

[zebobes]

This reminds me when I was a child, watching the movie Mary Poppins. As a child, I couldn't understand how anyone would think George Banks loved his children. I honestly thought that he hated his children. Only rewatching it decades later, did I actually understand that he DID in fact love his children. And I cried rewatching the movie, because I knew that George Banks had a such a hard time expressing this love. 

When you love someone, there's certain things that you can do that can be so incredibly hurtful, and I think Brandon captures this dynamic perfectly. I understand why his actions anger so many people, but this is something that people of a different generation, a different background, can so easily do. Was Lirin wrong? Of course he was, but that doesn't change the fact that he loves his son. 

[TiaOmi]

I don't hate Lirin in the same way I hate Moash - it's a very well written character, if sometimes over the top, and the whole betrayel on his part when Kal killed to protect Teft is despicable, but he's not evil. He's just... not a good father.

I find Lirin to be the miror of my parents, who were not understanding of me taking a different path in life to the one they took, who also wanted and pushed for me to take their path and do more, do something they didn't achieve. They also did it out of love, beliveing their way to be the best way. They also wanted to protect me. But it left me feeling pressured to become something I'm not, it left a feeling that I'm somehow lacking and wrong in everything I do.

Man, no wonder I identify with Kaladin so much...

[+Bliev]

11 hours ago, Sparks said:

2) Lirin was Kaladin when he was younger.  He was the Dark-eyed rebel rising above his station to challenge authority and the social order in Hearthstone.   Lirin was the one that was going to take his superior intellect and training, even as a darkeyed citizen, save a bunch of people's lives and fight injustice and inequity.  Only Lirin now blames his sticking his neck out directly with getting his family torn apart and devastated with Roshone.  

This. Lirin and Kaladin are so similar, that it's interesting to see how little they seem to want to understand each other. Lirin values protection and so does Kaladin. They are stubborn and dogmatic in their views of the world. They are judgmental and loyal. But they are also deeply hurt and pained by what they see as their own failures to protect those they love. Seeing Lirin hold the same guilt Kal does over Tien, but also feel guilty about Kal? It's not hard to see where Kaladin gets his principles or his personality. I liked this book partly for that reason--I had hoped they would learn to understand each other better, to appreciate one another. I think they did, though we  see it through Kal's lens, so Lirin seems more wrong than he probably is (though this is not a justification for his denunciation of Kal in fear and anger). I  love that the world Brandon created, with spren that reveal hidden emotions, adds more context to Lirin, even without a POV from him, and so does Hesina's POV.  

[Singer]

I think Lirin's pacifism is really well written. I was raised by a medical professional who treated war veterans, so I found his views on war to be extremely relatable.

But... he has some personal growth that needs doing. I feel like he actually regressed from what we saw in WoK. Losing Tien broke him just as much as it did Kaladin, but in a different way and he is only now coming to terms with it.

I very much disagree with Lirin and think he is failing to understand Kaladin, failing to even try at times, which seems pretty realistic to me. Parents are like that. And even when parents are trying to understand, they fail. A lot. I'm certainly guilty of it! I think for me this isn't so much a case of I hate or love this character, I think this character is effective. But if y'all can't stand him, I get it. And if reading his viewpoint makes you want to skip pages, I think we all have characters who we hate to spend time in their heads.

[Subvisual Haze]

He's a self-righteous bully and only offered approval to Kaladin when Kaladin was pursuing the exact path he wanted him to in life.  He's a bad father.  He's not evil.  The world is full of people like him.

I actually really enjoyed the resolution of his story.  There wasn't an effort to redeem him in our eyes or have him apologize to Kaladin because he's incredibly prideful and unwilling to admit fault.  They both more of less just agree to live their own lives, which is probably the best Kaladin could hope from his Father.

[+Child of Hodor]

His complete refusal to be happy for his son is awful. He slumps in disappointment when Kaladin summons Syl and says he’s a Radiant. 

Your son who you thought was dead is actually alive and he literally flew here to help your town and he’s a magic man now. Why are you so upset?

[Sasja2112]

On 18/11/2020 at 1:55 PM, IntentAwesome said:

But being willing to just hand your son over for execution?!

Doesn't he tell Hesina later, when she chews him out for it, that he wouldn't have done that? I thought in that conversation he revealed that he was just talking out of anger. 

 

100% Kal deserves better from both parents though.