Elsecaller_17.5

Was anyone ready for the King T bombshell? ROW SPOILERS

103 posts in this topic

38 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

So I wasn't the only one. This, more than anything else in the book, shocked me completely and totally.

my brother is currently reading through, and during the terravangian Interlude he runs to me and is like "Terravangian! These words! [speculation speculation] I think Terravangian is closer Connected to Odium than we thought!" and I was just sitting there thinking "just you wait...Just. You. Wait."

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8 hours ago, Koloss17 said:

I’m so sad that I did see it coming. I got spoiled by the coppermind. I wanted to remember the name of the vessel that held Odium, but there the name Taravangian  was, instead of Rayse. Storm it!

 

5 hours ago, ftl said:

Yep. I've seen people argue that Cultivation "screwed up" or "made a mistake" by letting someone as ruthless as T get Odium.

But we can't tell if it's a mistake because we don't actually know what she's trying to accomplish. If her main goal was vengeance against Rayse, not against the shard Odium... well, she's done. Successful. Doesn't care what happens next. And if she's got longer-term plans... well, without knowing what they are, we don't know whether Odium brutally destroying things is good or bad for those plans.

After all, Cultivation IS who set up the Diagram, via T's genius day. That should give us some insight on how she operates. And, um, it's not pretty. If Taravangian is acting exactly as she always wanted him to, perhaps he's the perfect vessel - for her ends, not necessarily for our protagonists' or for Roshar or for the Cosmere.

Exactly what I'm thinking - we got to see too little of Cultivation in the first books, we don't know her ultimate goals. What we did see is that she's not agaist doing drastic moves, like changing Lift or Dalinar. Maybe this is exactly what she wanted, and even though Taravangian is sure she wanted something else than what she got in him, I don't know that he's right.

Something I've always found a bit strage is the coupling of Cultivation and Honor - it's not two Intents that I would put together as a pair (not that I'd see Cultivation and Odium as a perfect pair, unless you're growing something terrible, like cancer). Maybe Cultiation is open to working with any "tool", be that Honor or Odium, as long as she fulfills her Intent of Cultivation - whatever that may mean on the phisical plain.

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24 minutes ago, TiaOmi said:

 

Exactly what I'm thinking - we got to see too little of Cultivation in the first books, we don't know her ultimate goals. What we did see is that she's not agaist doing drastic moves, like changing Lift or Dalinar. Maybe this is exactly what she wanted, and even though Taravangian is sure she wanted something else than what she got in him, I don't know that he's right.

Something I've always found a bit strage is the coupling of Cultivation and Honor - it's not two Intents that I would put together as a pair (not that I'd see Cultivation and Odium as a perfect pair, unless you're growing something terrible, like cancer). Maybe Cultiation is open to working with any "tool", be that Honor or Odium, as long as she fulfills her Intent of Cultivation - whatever that may mean on the phisical plain.

I think Cultivation + Odium = Darwinian Evolution.

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I didn't see the Taravangian twist coming AT ALL but didn't Szeth kill him before he ascended? Doesn't that make him slightly weaker as a vessel like Kelsier?

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I think, Cultiviation prepared three weapons against Rayse, not knowing or really caring which one would work in the end: Dalinar, Taravangian and Lift. Let's have a look of Hoids letter to "the old reptile", which we now can safely guess is Cultivations vessel. These are from chapters 18 and 19:

Quote

Ati was once a kind and generous man, and you saw what became of him. Rayse, on the other hand, was among the most loathsome, crafty, and dangerous individuals I had ever met.

Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (S.274). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle-Version. 

and

Quote

He holds the most frightening and terrible of all of the Shards. Ponder on that for a time, you old reptile, and tell me if your insistence on nonintervention holds firm. Because I assure you, Rayse will not be similarly inhibited.

Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (S.295). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle-Version. 

We never really found out, when these letter was actually written. So it might well be, that Cultivations manipulations of the three was initialized by this very letter. 

Apparently she agreed, that everything was better than Rayse holding Odium.

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48 minutes ago, Michael Portz said:

Let's have a look of Hoids letter to "the old reptile", which we now can safely guess is Cultivations vessel. These are from chapters 18 and 19:

and

We never really found out, when these letter was actually written. So it might well be, that Cultivations manipulations of the three was initialized by this very letter. 

Apparently she agreed, that everything was better than Rayse holding Odium.

Letters were clearly addressed to Frost. It is both implied by the 17th shard mention and later confirmed in the WoB

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15 hours ago, Alcatur said:

Letters were clearly addressed to Frost. It is both implied by the 17th shard mention and later confirmed in the WoB

Yeah, but nobody said that Koravellium Avast could not be Frosts sister!

HA!

(translated: Yeah, you are right, I should have tried coppermind before posting :( )

ps: There IS a thread where it is speculated that Cultivation IS a dragon: 

 

Edited by Michael Portz
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On 11/18/2020 at 5:06 PM, Subvisual Haze said:

I'm glad we placed the most dangerous shard into the hands of an utterly amoral genius.  What could possibly go wrong.

  I think of him as more utilitarian than amoral, but the same implications are there.

 

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As soon as it happened I thought that they should begin looking into how to break their word in 10 days time. Whether that would harm the spren of Honor, or they could simply stop this by killing Dalinar, perhaps with Nightblood.

I've always been very given to drastic measures, but I truly think its better for Dalinar, Roshar and the Cosmere to destroy Dalinar than to let him fall into T's hands. Maybe when Dalinar dies during the duel Szeth could be waiting in Shadesmar to destroy him completely with NB before T can capture him. But we all know that is most likely not going to happen.

Right now Cultivation seems to have set up T to become Odium and somehow Dalinar to become Honor. I would much prefer to see Dalinar take both Shards and become War. Odium seems to be a very unstable Shard (all are unstable, but Odium seems extra dangerous with no equilibrium whatsover). War is not a lovely Shard, but there is already constant war on Roshar anyway. 

 

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Honestly I'm terrified for the protagonists. It was one of the only moments where I screamed out loud (the others being Teft and 'Lord of Scars'). And Hoid being terrified before his memory was altered was especially telling. I have never seen Hoid afraid before. Ever. So that gave me chills. But his very last line gave a hint that he may have expected this. Not sure whether or not it's the case)

 

It's actually funny how Harmony hinted at this before it actually happened. In the epigraph letter he said Hoid should be more afraid of the Shard than the Vessel. And be especially wary of a Vessel with the craftiness to work well with their Shard (in Harmony hahaha...). Rayse and Odium were almost ripping each other apart since the Vessel was wanting to act one way, and the Shard another. Now that Taravangian has taken over as Odium's Vessel, the people of Roshar should be very, very scared.

Edited by Zurvanite
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2 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Right now Cultivation seems to have set up T to become Odium and somehow Dalinar to become Honor. I would much prefer to see Dalinar take both Shards and become War.

We don't actually know that that would happen.  All we know is that the rhythm that is produced by the fusion of their two energies is identified by a Singer's inherent rhythm-identification-sense power as "the rhythm of war."  (And that said singer is most likely somewhat insane, and talking to an enemy, and so not necessarily trustworthy on this point.)

The Lights of Odium, Honor, and Cultivation are all called something different from their Shard names.  The fusion of the powers of Honor and Cultivation produces something that gets referred to as "towerlight," because the main use for it that people know about is running the Tower of Urithiru, and Navani identifies its rhythm as "the rhythm of science," but we have no idea how reliable that is or how serious she was being.

So at the moment we really have no solid reason to believe that the Intent of a combined Honor/Odium Shard would be War.

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On 11/18/2020 at 1:29 PM, Drol said:
On 11/18/2020 at 11:50 AM, Necessary Eagle said:

Do you think they're going to have to rename raysium?

Taravangianium, perhaps? Bit of a mouthful if you ask me:P

Vargonium

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On 2020-11-19 at 6:14 PM, Koloss17 said:

I’m so sad that I did see it coming. I got spoiled by the coppermind. I wanted to remember the name of the vessel that held Odium, but there the name Taravangian  was, instead of Rayse. Storm it!

We got Cultivation's name as Kora Avast so I wanted to see if it was Tan Avast or Tanavast. I scored down and sat "T" and then went "WHAT ON ROSHAR!". Luckily, I was already on part 5 but still.... 

Edited by teknopathetic
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I just realized that  one benefit they had was that ROdium had a blind spot revolving around Renarin, and TOdium knows this and that Sja-Anat was working against Odium. 

 

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52 minutes ago, FollowYourMuse said:

I just realized that  one benefit they had was that ROdium had a blind spot revolving around Renarin, and TOdium knows this and that Sja-Anat was working against Odium. 

 

But now there's a new blind spot - Rlain, that Taravangian doesn't know about.

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I finished the book on Friday, and every couple of hours since I think to myself "Oh God, Taravangian is Odium!"

When it happened, I just stared at the book or like a solid minute, as my brain had to reconstitute itself. I tried three times to move on to the next chapter and just couldn't. 

Also, I thought it would by obvious. The new god-metal is "Taravangium."

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So I wasn't really expecting this, but I did post this on my introduce yourself thread:

Quote

The Storming Stormfather: Welcome to the Shard, Autobrecciation! Which character (non-Mistborn series) do you think would have the best chance to take down the Lord Ruler?

Me: Just take him out? Chiri-Chiri. Bring down / co-opt his church and raise himself to God-Emperor status? Taravangian.

So I guess I'd say I wasn't surprised at all when Taravangian killed a God and co-opted his religion in a move to ascend to God-Emperor status.

 

Quote

All we know is that the rhythm that is produced by the fusion of their two energies is identified by a Singer's inherent rhythm-identification-sense power as "the rhythm of war." 

Was it on the shard or reddit someone posted the tinfoil theory about Dalinar seizing Odium and Honor and becoming "Conquest"? That would have been sick. Also, still not out of the question if somehow Dalinar gets Honor's shard but becomes T-Odiums slave.

Edited by Autobrecciation
Adding some responses to above comments without wanting to double post.
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On 11/19/2020 at 10:57 PM, ftl said:

Yep. I've seen people argue that Cultivation "screwed up" or "made a mistake" by letting someone as ruthless as T get Odium.

But we can't tell if it's a mistake because we don't actually know what she's trying to accomplish. If her main goal was vengeance against Rayse, not against the shard Odium... well, she's done. Successful. Doesn't care what happens next. And if she's got longer-term plans... well, without knowing what they are, we don't know whether Odium brutally destroying things is good or bad for those plans.

After all, Cultivation IS who set up the Diagram, via T's genius day. That should give us some insight on how she operates. And, um, it's not pretty. If Taravangian is acting exactly as she always wanted him to, perhaps he's the perfect vessel - for her ends, not necessarily for our protagonists' or for Roshar or for the Cosmere.

I agree! I think the immediate reaction is "oh man, Cultivation screwed up" because we've ridden around in T's head and we understand how scary he is, but she made him who he is. She's the Shard who took down Rayse where so many others had failed before her, through subterfuge, not head-on conflict. Sure, she tells Taravangian she wants him to use Odium "with honor", but this is a lady who's both demonstrated ample cunning AND is a literal deity. This might get played entirely straight with her being in over her head, but I'm not so sure. The simple fact that she was the one to take down the guy who'd gone through four other Shards like a buzzsaw makes me very hesitant to underestimate her.

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I'm pretty certain I just sat there for three minutes before I kept going.  And then I was terrified.

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On 11/22/2020 at 0:02 AM, DuffMcGruff said:

  I think of him as more utilitarian than amoral, but the same implications are there.

 

I agree that he's not completely amoral - he just completely believes the ends justify the means. I don't know what to expect from him next. His whole goal up to now has been to save Kharbranth, and he was willing to do anything to make it happen. But now we don't know what his goal is which makes him incredibly unpredictable. He claims he wants to "save them all" which theoretically is good, it's just a question of at what cost, because Taravangian's main issue is that he doesn't care about the cost of what he does. 

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10 minutes ago, Kirsten said:

I agree that he's not completely amoral - he just completely believes the ends justify the means. I don't know what to expect from him next. His whole goal up to now has been to save Kharbranth, and he was willing to do anything to make it happen. But now we don't know what his goal is which makes him incredibly unpredictable. He claims he wants to "save them all" which theoretically is good, it's just a question of at what cost, because Taravangian's main issue is that he doesn't care about the cost of what he does. 

Actually, what makes him TRULY terrifying is that he DOES care. But he does it ANYWAY.

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"Then he Ascended to Godhood". 
*puts down book*

*Stares at the wall for a full minute, slowing squinting eyes*

"Well, sh*t". 

As my grandpap says, I felt this one in my bones. 

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I wasn't expecting it this book but I was fully expecting Taravangian to take up Odium on his most compassionate day and GOD it feels good to be right

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I was expecting some kind of last ditch effort by Taravangian didn't buy that he was going to go away quietly to the great beyond after saving his city but never would have guessed this. It is probably the most shocking reveal I have read in any of Brandon's books. There was some minor foreshadowing with Nightblood when he talked about Dalinar bringing it to a vision but he seemed so "dumb" I never saw it coming that he would use it himself. Even when he did use Nightblood against him I did not see him taking the shard. Bravo Brandon you got me. 

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I was starting to wonder what the back five would be about as it seemed like there was a way to deal with Odium in the front five. Then Mr. T ascended, and then I was thinking how eff'd Dalinar is goign to be in ten days, and if he's going to be the antagonist in the back 5. Seems too obvious, but on the other hand, Adolin having to take on his father..... Ouch.

Also, anyone else think Renarin only foresaw Seth killing Mr. T and that's what the "sorry" was for? Not sure he saw the ascension.

 

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