Was anyone ready for the King T bombshell? ROW SPOILERS

[Kingsdaughter613]

1 hour ago, Tahva4815 said:

Created an account here JUST BECAUSE OF THIS TWIST.

On one hand it was one of the most shocking things yet in the entire series and in a book that NEEDED to up the stakes going into Book 5 this twist 100% succeeded in making me  absolutely TERRIFIED of the implications of this.

On the other hand it came out of absolutely nowhere and I think I need to see how it plays out before being sure about it, like we've heard so much about how bad of a man Rayse was only for that to....not really matter at all?

The Shard has theorized for awhile that Cultivation’s plan involved Nightblood, Odium and Taravangian’s most emotional day. So I don’t think it was really out of left field...

[Subvisual Haze]

7 hours ago, Rainier said:

Cultivation had a significant impact on the person he became after he visited her. She wanted it in the hands of someone she had sculpted, instead of anyone she had not. And the sly dragon has gotten her way thus far. The only question now, what the heck is her way? Why maneuver Dalinar and Taravangian into place right as the final clash between Odium and what's-left-of-Honor?

What is she planning on happening in ten days?

Yeah, it occurs to me that I may have assumed too much benevolence guiding Cultivation's actions.  Just the "Earth Mother" vibe made me assume good intentions.  Instead Taravangian might well have been her perfect pawn because he mirrors her ruthless utilitarian mindsight.

[+robardin]

5 hours ago, Tahva4815 said:

Created an account here JUST BECAUSE OF THIS TWIST.

On one hand it was one of the most shocking things yet in the entire series and in a book that NEEDED to up the stakes going into Book 5 this twist 100% succeeded in making me  absolutely TERRIFIED of the implications of this.

On the other hand it came out of absolutely nowhere and I think I need to see how it plays out before being sure about it, like we've heard so much about how bad of a man Rayse was only for that to....not really matter at all?

That was a nice fakeout, to make us think (that we were supposed to think) that Rayse-Odium was the Big Baddie of the Cosmere Storyline.

I personally thought we'd find that was only for the "front five" of SA, and that Rayse might be made to drop Odium in SA5. Never expected it to be SA4, nor for it to happen the way that it did (never thought it through as to who would pick it up, either).

Having it happen so relatively quickly and casually was very cool. I mean from a Cosmere mechanics perspective, it's just something that naturally happens, yeah? Vessel contains Shard; Vessel is destroyed, Shard is released; Shard seeks a new Vessel with Connection to it nearby; Shard finds it, boom, done.

I'm sure from a first person perspective, like we saw when a certain other POV character Ascended in another storyline (no spoilers...), it felt like "an infinity of time passed in a frozen microsecond".

What I found very odd is that Rayse-Odium was perfectly willing to stay bound on Roshar in both "championship fight" outcomes. All along I'd assumed he wanted to be freed to go Shard-Hunting again. ... Or did he? I am not entirely sure.

What is telling is that Rayse-Odium said more than once, "if you have an agreement with me, I will keep it in spirit and not only in word" - was that just Rayse speaking (how he as a Vessel would operate), or Odium (the binding nature of the Shard)? Taravangian was certainly looking immediately for loopholes...!

[+robardin]

8 hours ago, Rainier said:

I'm still in shock at the ramifications.

First of all, The Diagram was ultimately part of Cultivation's plan to murder Rayse with Nightblood, then have Taravangian in place to take up the Shard.

Second, Taravangian may have read all of Hoid's memories, which should have caught him up nicely with the state of the Cosmere, and more importantly the history of the Cosmere and the Shattering.

Third, he is on a collision course with Dalinar in just ten days time

Cultivation had a significant impact on the person he became after he visited her. She wanted it in the hands of someone she had sculpted, instead of anyone she had not. And the sly dragon has gotten her way thus far. The only question now, what the heck is her way? Why maneuver Dalinar and Taravangian into place right as the final clash between Odium and what's-left-of-Honor?

What is she planning on happening in ten days?

And what is time, to a god? Nothing. Be it ten thousand years, or ten days.

And the idea that a Shard could rummage through Hoid's memories and twiddle them a bit really makes me wonder how Hoid could ever, ever have been so rash as to arrange to meet face to face with Rayse-Odium. I think this speaks to what he knew of Rayse as a Vessel (what Rayse wouldn't think of doing), and did not expect from a very different Taravangian Vessel of Odium.

I also think it's worth applauding how that Epilogue was written, in terms of modifying Hoid's memories. It just... Replayed, almost but not quite verbatim, with Hoid feeling "a little off" but not sure why (the fact that his perfect pitch was not all there should be a clue he may eventually work out). But of course, it's hard to know what you don't know, right? If you can't trust your own memories, what are you left with?

[FollowYourMuse]

It was a great way to show it, but I wonder too if it's all that we see. 
 I think Hoid was outplayed and did not plan on the differences of vessels, so lost memory of the encounter to protect T-Vessel, but Hoid is tricky and it does seem like a rash and sloppy move by him. 

The bit with the coins and slight of hand, and talk of stories though gives me a hint that he may have after all hidden miss-information for Odium to find. 
 

[+robardin]

Had another thought/question: how is it that Taravangian was able to draw Nightblood?

Odium had pulled him into a "vision" to talk to him... Which apparently is like a bubble in the Cognitive Realm, so he wasn't all smashed up by Szeth.

He also saw Nightblood "manifest on this side" and drew it to stab Rayse/Odium with. We'd never seen Nightblood in the CR, interesting that NB is somehow physically present in the CR even when actually carried in the Physical Realm?

Szeth killed Old Man Taravangian with an ordinary knife, right? Or did Szeth draw Nightblood in the PR which made it possible for CR Taravangian to use it?

And why were there physical remains? I mean, I know the "real" reason is that that's the ejecta of Rayse's Vessel in the PR, but if Szeth had indeed killed Taravangian with Nightblood he should have been surprised by bits of charred bones or whatever being left, since normally whatever gets Nightblooded puffs away to smoke.

[NysemePtem]

So, I definitely knew the whole Odium-glowing thing was going somewhere, probably some kind of weakness. I had absolutely no idea Taravangian would ascend. What confuses me is: 1) what will Taravangian do if he wins the duel 

2) why is he pretending to be Rayse

 

[Necessary Eagle]

With Rayse "Rayse SMASH!" as Odium, I didn't think the chances of Dalinar becoming his Fused was actually all that likely. With the more complicated character of Taravangian, I feel like the chances have gone up and I'm terrified.

[Kingsdaughter613]

9 minutes ago, NysemePtem said:

So, I definitely knew the whole Odium-glowing thing was going somewhere, probably some kind of weakness. I had absolutely no idea Taravangian would ascend. What confuses me is: 1) what will Taravangian do if he wins the duel 

2) why is he pretending to be Rayse

 

The last I can answer: it means people will expect him to act a certain way, making it easier for T to trick them. The epilogue was a great example of this.

[+robardin]

4 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The last I can answer: it means people will expect him to act a certain way, making it easier for T to trick them. The epilogue was a great example of this.

Yep. The egotistical Rayse, who went around with a scepter all the time, would never have pretended to be someone else. The fact that Taravangian is doing so, from the very outset, in order to "give people what they expect" so he can draw out more information, is very much an example of how a Vessel matters in directing a Shard.

Yes, if Odium truly is "the most dangerous of the sixteen" in nature and not because of who the Vessel was, oh dear.

For one, I doubt Taravangian will be like Rayse and feel that the Shard "suits him perfectly" and that he wouldn't want to be influenced by another Shard. I kind of think Taravangian would indeed seek to absorb rather than to splinter other Shards.

I wonder how Rayse had planned to do that while still bound to Roshar, which he'd agreed to be even if his champion won, acting solely through proxy with Dalinar as his leader "to send to the stars". But whatever devious plan he had for achieving Shard-splintering results by agent proxy while personally bound to the Rosharan system, is only going to get a whole lot more devious and cunning with Taravangian piloting the ship.

[Rainier]

20 minutes ago, NysemePtem said:

2) why is he pretending to be Rayse

This one is easy. Information is power. The longer it takes for the other Vessels and relevant people in the Cosmere to find out what happened, the longer it takes for them to react. Especially Hoid, who knew Rayse and was counting on dealing with him.

2 minutes ago, robardin said:

going to get a whole lot more devious and cunning with Taravangian piloting the ship.

From the Part 2 Epigraphs:

Quote

My instincts say that the power of Odium is not being controlled well. The Vessel will be adapted to the power’s will. And after this long, if Odium is still seeking to destroy, then it is because of the power.

Of course, I admit this is a small quibble. A difference of semantics more than anything.

In truth, it would be a combination of a Vessel’s craftiness and the power’s Intent that we should fear most.

Yes, these are the events that we should fear the most.

[Tahva4815]

6 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The Shard has theorized for awhile that Cultivation’s plan involved Nightblood, Odium and Taravangian’s most emotional day. So I don’t think it was really out of left field...

I mean people theorize on here about a lot of things, but I don't feel like it had been set up in the text how Taravangian would be able to pull Nightblood into a vision. Nightblood hurting/killing Odium had been brought up by Taravangian himself during ROW so the effect it had on Odium didn't feel totally crazy to me but how Taravangian managed to make that work kinda came out of nowhere.

I liked the twist for how shocking it was and how disturbing the future implications seemingly are, but I also think it would have worked better if Szeth had gotten more screentime building up to this moment. It kinda felt like Szeth was literally just a plot piece used in this book to get Taravangian to Nightblood.

[Kingsdaughter613]

7 minutes ago, Tahva4815 said:

I mean people theorize on here about a lot of things, but I don't feel like it had been set up in the text how Taravangian would be able to pull Nightblood into a vision. Nightblood hurting/killing Odium had been brought up by Taravangian himself during ROW so the effect it had on Odium didn't feel totally crazy to me but how Taravangian managed to make that work kinda came out of nowhere.

I liked the twist for how shocking it was and how disturbing the future implications seemingly are, but I also think it would have worked better if Szeth had gotten more screentime building up to this moment. It kinda felt like Szeth was literally just a plot piece used in this book to get Taravangian to Nightblood.

Agree about Szeth. We needed more of him.

[+Bliev]

I was really really shocked by that move, and by the epilogue. I did *not* expect T to take up the shard like that, at this point, and then to be able to wield it with such precision so quickly. Cultivation is truly the master cultivator. I cannot wait to get more of her.

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

What I find quite interesting is that Taravangian actually wielded NB with ease.  Is that normal?  I haven't read Warbreaker, but I know plenty about the magic and about NB.  Does this mean that NB didn't see T as evil?

[+robardin]

47 minutes ago, ShalladinForever said:

What I find quite interesting is that Taravangian actually wielded NB with ease.  Is that normal?  I haven't read Warbreaker, but I know plenty about the magic and about NB.  Does this mean that NB didn't see T as evil?

That's another good point. So we have two questions about how that played out:

- How was Taravangian able to draw Nightblood from within a "CR bubble" (Odiumvision) when it was still physically carried (maybe drawn) by Szeth in his prison cell in the Physical Realm [answer may have to do with Nightblood being Special in All Three Realms, or simply a version of the Manifest-the-physical-object-from-bead trick that Brandon took special pain to illustrate earlier as not resulting in the original physical object disappearing from the Physical Realm...]

- How was Taravangian able to draw Nightblood... at all, when he repeatedly described himself as bloodstained and taking on the responsibility for evils/sins committed for the greater good? [answer may have to do with drawing a "cognitive" version versus the Real Deal? But it sure had a Real Effect on Rayse! Or just that a self-identification of "doing necessary evil for the greater good" passes the NB test?]

 

[Necessary Eagle]

So I was looking back over the ascension scene... Renarin leaves a note with the gemstones saying he's sorry. What did he see? Could he know about the Rayse/Taravangian switcharoo?

[Kingsdaughter613]

54 minutes ago, robardin said:

That's another good point. So we have two questions about how that played out:

- How was Taravangian able to draw Nightblood from within a "CR bubble" (Odiumvision) when it was still physically carried (maybe drawn) by Szeth in his prison cell in the Physical Realm [answer may have to do with Nightblood being Special in All Three Realms, or simply a version of the Manifest-the-physical-object-from-bead trick that Brandon took special pain to illustrate earlier as not resulting in the original physical object disappearing from the Physical Realm...]

- How was Taravangian able to draw Nightblood... at all, when he repeatedly described himself as bloodstained and taking on the responsibility for evils/sins committed for the greater good? [answer may have to do with drawing a "cognitive" version versus the Real Deal? But it sure had a Real Effect on Rayse! Or just that a self-identification of "doing necessary evil for the greater good" passes the NB test?]

 

Nightblood doesn’t test for evil. The test just sees if someone wants to lift the blade vs. being repelled by it. T is not the kind of person who wants to lift the blade, especially on his compassionate/emotional days.

[IcaroRibeiro]

I'm sure this was the scene Brandon said he envisioned even before writing The Way of Kings

He stated Stormlight Archive has some few outlining points which all the story plot lines revolves around 

This was one of them, there is no doubt here

[Koloss17]

I’m so sad that I did see it coming. I got spoiled by the coppermind. I wanted to remember the name of the vessel that held Odium, but there the name Taravangian  was, instead of Rayse. Storm it!

[Kalaksbreath]

This literally blew my mind I think I just sat in my dorm for like 30 minutes staring into empty space with my mouth hanging open.

[Necessary Eagle]

49 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

I’m so sad that I did see it coming. I got spoiled by the coppermind. I wanted to remember the name of the vessel that held Odium, but there the name Taravangian  was, instead of Rayse. Storm it!

ouch

[ftl]

17 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The Shard has theorized for awhile that Cultivation’s plan involved Nightblood, Odium and Taravangian’s most emotional day. So I don’t think it was really out of left field...

Yeah, I definitely had "Rayse dies, someone else takes up Odium" as my guess at the most likely ending to book 5, and "Taravangian betrays odium on a super-compassionate day" as one of the top twists I was expecting, and possibly super-compassionate T as a new vessel for Odium...

...but I never expected Odium to die yet. And for T to become the new antagonist, for at least this last book. (Book 5 which will, potentially, take place over just 10 days???)

14 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Yeah, it occurs to me that I may have assumed too much benevolence guiding Cultivation's actions.  Just the "Earth Mother" vibe made me assume good intentions.  Instead Taravangian might well have been her perfect pawn because he mirrors her ruthless utilitarian mindsight.

Yep. I've seen people argue that Cultivation "screwed up" or "made a mistake" by letting someone as ruthless as T get Odium.

But we can't tell if it's a mistake because we don't actually know what she's trying to accomplish. If her main goal was vengeance against Rayse, not against the shard Odium... well, she's done. Successful. Doesn't care what happens next. And if she's got longer-term plans... well, without knowing what they are, we don't know whether Odium brutally destroying things is good or bad for those plans.

After all, Cultivation IS who set up the Diagram, via T's genius day. That should give us some insight on how she operates. And, um, it's not pretty. If Taravangian is acting exactly as she always wanted him to, perhaps he's the perfect vessel - for her ends, not necessarily for our protagonists' or for Roshar or for the Cosmere.

[Aminar]

10 hours ago, Necessary Eagle said:

So I was looking back over the ascension scene... Renarin leaves a note with the gemstones saying he's sorry. What did he see? Could he know about the Rayse/Taravangian switcharoo?

Yeah. Renarin knows. He did it for a reason. But the crazy part is unlike Rayse Taravangian knows about Renarin. 

What he doesn't know about is Rlain. 

[Mat]

On 11/18/2020 at 2:15 AM, Illwei said:

NO i was NOT prepared at ALL for that. 

I actually wheezed. Like, some sort of Wheezing fit. I don't know what my family thought when they heard me but-
It's absolutely terrifying I am completely terrified absolutely terrified this is scary. 

So I wasn't the only one. This, more than anything else in the book, shocked me completely and totally.