Arch1tect

El

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Which of course is Spanish for "the"

Are we looking at hemalurgy here?

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Are you referring to when he kills the Pursuer? Is there any reason to think it isn't just the anti-Voidlight knife that Navani and Raboniel made?

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41 minutes ago, Arch1tect said:

Which of course is Spanish for "the"

Are we looking at hemalurgy here?

El is Hebrew for God. Also ‘to’. 

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My thoughts are as follows.

Spoiler

- Something up with Hemalurgy based off them putting metal into his body.

- Seems like they're the big boy of the Fused's scholars/Fused in general and probably set to become a major antagonist in book 5.

- My first thought when they got described as seperate to all the other Fused was that they were the Fused equivalent to a Bondsmith. Maybe even the one that set up the whole Fused situation in the first place like Ishar did for the Heralds. Could explain why they're so cast out by the Fused as well based on them viewing Adhesion as a false surge.

- Something funky is up with them and the rthymns, is real weird for a Fused or a Parshendi in general to not be able to hear them.

 

Edited by Harkain
Forgot spoiler
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1 hour ago, Zedseayou said:

Are you referring to when he kills the Pursuer? Is there any reason to think it isn't just the anti-Voidlight knife that Navani and Raboniel made?

Nah, more the metal in his body, but now that you mention it, could those daggers be used hemalurgically? That could be nifty. 

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The Chapter 99 epigraph suggests what happened to El and his rhythms:

Quote

I had my title and my rhythms stripped from me for daring [to] insist they should not be killed, but should instead be reconditioned. Repurposed.

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

Based on the Chapter 98 epigraph (and rest of the epigraphs taken together), the 'they' appears to be humans.

Quote

I look forward to ruling the humans.

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

Though it's possible 'they' may be referring to a subset instead (i.e. Radiants).

Chapter 116 epigraph:

Quote

Nearly as much as I look forward to serving you, newest Odium. Who was so recently one of them. You understand. And you are the one I’ve been waiting to worship.

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

All of these are taken from the same source ("—Musings of El, on the first of the Final Ten Days") and clearly refer to Taravangian replacing Rayse. So it's likely reasonable to infer that Rayse!Odium was the one to punish El (it could have been the Nine, but their authority doesn't seem to be quite so far reaching, but regardless, presumably with Rayse!Odium's blessing or at least non-objection) and the reason for it was because he wanted to use some group instead of killing them. Since El was punished, it seems reasonable to assume his recommendation wasn't taken, e.g. the possibility that the group El is referring to is the Unmade is unlikely, since they are being used instead of having been killed.

The epigraphs taken together strongly imply the group El is referring to are humans, and that Rayse!Odium objected to El's proposal to use the humans instead of killing them. This feels a bit odd since Rayse!Odium seemed to want to use the humans, too (e.g. Dalinar, taking over the Alethi with the Thrill at Thaylen City, the nature of the contract for contest of champions), so there's likely more going on here. Either the group El is referring to aren't actually humans, or what Rayse!Odium didn't like was the specifics of the usage.

Alternatively, the punishment happened before the Fused existed (so before joining Odium). It'd be interesting to conjecture what El's title had been, as that might give some hints to clarify this issue. We know that the title is currently possessed by a human:

Quote

The Pursuer grunted, picking himself up off the ground. “They gave your title to another, you know. A human.”

“I’ve heard.”

“Disrespectful,” the Pursuer said to Derision. “It should have remained unused. Give me that Voidlight. I need to recharge myself, to earn back my legacy.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

Since The Pursuer/Lerian knows about it, it'd have to be something he'd be familiar with/would accept. Likewise, El would have to know about/accept it. Possible options include:

- Stormblessed: Lerian definitely knows about this one... Could argue that it wasn't bestowed by the Fused, per se, but the Fused (or at least the Heavenly Ones) seem to accept it as being Kaladin's.

- Voice of Lights: Probably knows about this one being under Raboniel's command. Given that El appears to have the Rhythm of War research, he'd almost certainly have heard about it as well.

- He Who Quiets: Possibly the most likely? Seems like all the Fused would be aware of this one.

If it was 'Stormblessed', it might have been associated with joining Odium and spurning Honor; this could explain why his suggestion might have been punished (Listeners opposed his plan rather than Rayse!Odium). 'Voice of Lights' could also work in this context, since it doesn't look like anyone was considering Voidlight to be 'real' light before Navani's work (hence Raboniel's assumption Voidlight and Stormlight were opposites). 'He Who Quiets' could probably be generically applicable; Moash's loss of emotion could certainly be paralleled to a Listener losing their rhythms.

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8 hours ago, Harkain said:

My thoughts are as follows.

  Hide contents

 Something funky is up with them and the rthymns, is real weird for a Fused or a Parshendi in general to not be able to hear them.

 

 

My guess for this is that the lack of rhythm is due to hemalurgy or some other soul damage. Quote from Rabionel below:

Spoiler

"I … cannot hear rhythms.… My soul … dying…”

 

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Alien who likes sticking himself with metal and wants to "repurpose" humans. Lots of Mistborn connecting threads in this book.

El

Trell

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On 11/18/2020 at 2:53 PM, Seloun said:

 

Based on the Chapter 98 epigraph (and rest of the epigraphs taken together), the 'they' appears to be humans.Though it's possible 'they' may be referring to a subset instead (i.e. Radiants).

- He Who Quiets: Possibly the most likely? Seems like all the Fused would be aware of this one.

.

I think he meant to repurpose the KR .

Albeit it's possible he took the punishment voluntarily or doesn't think much of it ,  in order to better understand humans. He is a scholar of human art after all. Takes pride in it too I think. So the Fused might have taken it away as they thought him an essai or close to it. 

Stripping him of rhythms also seems to be a punishment only a Shard could pul off. Rayse did hate the Radiants as they represent his opponent Shards and they they themselves had given him big trouble. 

It was only in the end that rayse tried to gain the Radiants that too mainly to pressure dalinar I suspect. 

Taravangian on the other hand , likes the Radiants and might try to trick cultivation into getting them on his side. 

Also hemalurgy. Idk , if rayse knew of hemalurgy I'm sure he would have made full use of it. I really doubt El would have been able to hide it from under Odium's vision. 

 

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  Quote

I had my title and my rhythms stripped from me for daring [to] insist they should not be killed, but should instead be reconditioned. Repurposed.

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition

 

What is the they here is the Listeners? The singers and the fused already hated them because they ran away from odium and the war in the first place. We see the ones that took on storm form and brought the everstoem back were punished by being hosts for the fused, how much more would they hate the listeners that refused storm form and escaped into the chasms?

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1 hour ago, Bork said:
  Quote

I had my title and my rhythms stripped from me for daring [to] insist they should not be killed, but should instead be reconditioned. Repurposed.

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition

 

What is the they here is the Listeners? The singers and the fused already hated them because they ran away from odium and the war in the first place. We see the ones that took on storm form and brought the everstoem back were punished by being hosts for the fused, how much more would they hate the listeners that refused storm form and escaped into the chasms?

Perhaps the heralds? It would be chilling if captured heralds were “reconditioned” via torture to side with Odium’s forces.

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I took that as referring to humans, since human culture is El's field of expertise, so he's obviously interested in how they behave. It's also in line with his considerations in the Part 5 epigraphs.

The other Fused seem to feel more antagonistic towards humans, if Lezian is anything to go by (Raboniel and Leshwi are presented as exceptions in their respect for humans). I guess if a species has thrown you out of your home and kept killing you for 7000 years, you get kinda angry and don't like any compromises.

That said, I find it interesting that Rayse (who else) seems to have taken his rhythms because he proposed the very thing he himself secretly wanted - using humans for, for example, a greater war (the Desolations being a way of training Rosharan humanity for a cosmere war, those things). Rayse seems to have been serious about making the Fused believed he did the whole thing for their revenge rather than for himself and a plan that would probably make them expendable.

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On 18.11.2020 at 7:09 AM, Arch1tect said:

Which of course is Spanish for "the"

Are we looking at hemalurgy here?

It is also Hebrew for "God" ;)

Wheeew. El has carapace so I guess he is not human? At least part Parshendi? It is super curious that he rips his carapace off and rplaces it with metal. Is that where your hermalugy idea comes from?

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I don't think the metal plates are hemalurgy because the fused would have been on Braize during the time that Hemalurgy was first introduced on Scadrial and they've only been out for a year - even if the fused have been working with Scadrian worldhoppers or other who are knowledgeable about Hemalurgy, would El have had enough time to learn the very specific mechanics (such as where bindpoints are) of hemalurgy and then modify himself to this extent? 

Lezian also notes about El, on page 1204, that "He always ripped off his natural carapace formations at each rebirth, then replaced them with metal inclusions. They were incorporated into his body by Voidlight healing and his own special talents." (I don't have an ebook to do the fancy quote thing with). This is like El's signature thing, and he'd been doing it long before Hemalurgy was even discovered. It sounds to me like he's doing something else with these plates, based on the "special talents" part of the quote. When I first read that section, I wondered if the metal was aluminum, to function as a built-in defense against shardblades. 

I saw someone somewhere (I don't recall who or where, unfortunately) musing that the metal inclusions could be like a fabrial cage. What if El's "special abilities" allow him to trap second spren inside his gemheart without it messing with his form, soooort of like Timbre was able to trap Venli's voidspren? Then El could turn himself into some kind of walking fabrial. I suppose the problem with the "trapping lesser spren" theory is that, if I'm remembering correctly, the Fused didn't know about modern Rosharan fabrial mechanics until this Return.

Edit: fixed some errors about the Fused

Edited by Trees
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We don't actually know when Hemalurgy was discovered. The metallic arts have been on Scandrial for ages and there are WOB that Mistborn were around before the Lord Ruler's Ascension. Probably Hemalurgy too. It was only made way more widespread because Ruin showed the Lord Ruler Hemalurgy as a way to get more servants. There is no reason Worldhoppers, several who are immortal couldn't have brought that knowledge other places before the final ascension. 

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