Epilogue Implications

[Kingsdaughter613]

6 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said:

Still, Autonomy is also creating new avatars that seem to think independently. It just seems that someone would have stumbled across such an idea within the past 10 000 years.

Edgli certainly has. We’ve seen this done with Breath before.

Thing is, Odium’s been trapped on Roshar for 7000 years, and we don’t know how long the Breath thing has been going on on Nalthis. We also don’t know how long Hoid has had breaths.

Perhaps most frightening: we don’t know that this IS the first time someone’s done this to him. It may just be the first time on-screen.

[Blacksmithki]

1 minute ago, Stormfather's Beard said:

As someone who wants/expects the heroes to lose in book 5 in a significant way, I think we might find that Hoid *has* been fooled here. I certainly hope so - much as I like him he should be able to make mistakes. Rodium didn't see his own death coming, so it is possible that Hoid has been equally fooled/misled. He certainly doesn't always have good foresight in other situations we've seen him in.

I seem to be the only one here though that assumes this is *bad* for the good guys and not a major play - I know Hoid is tricksy but arguably, with cultivation's interference, Taravangian was already more crafty and dangerous than even Rayse was - and he had more direct knowledge and likely more control over the Shard and its intent because he is a new bearer. Also, while Todium might well have some old memories of Hoid (when he was Cephandrius) there won't be a personal connection afaik which means Todium will be more rational (at least initially) than Rodium was when it came to dealing with him. 

While it's possible that the heroes will lose book 5, it doesn't quite seem to fit with Brandon's other work. Yes, we've seem situations where the protagonists are worse off then when they started, like WoA, or this book, but it's never bleak per say. It always ends with an ending that makes you feel like things are good. having the protagonists just objectively lose, get soundly defeated, or whatnot, just doesn't quite fit with the way that Brandon writes his stories.

What i think will instead happen, is that the book will in fact take place over more then 10 days, and that something will go horribly horribly wrong, and the end of the first arc of the book (he writes each book like a trilogy) will be the heroes suffering some form of defeat for them to dramatically struggle back against for the rest of the book, ending on either a draw, or a somewhat positive note, leaving us with a clear view of what is going to happen in ~10 years in the back half of the series.

We've seen that Brandon is willing to write the protagonists being defeated, but he does it more often in the middle or start of the book. Like Oathbringer, in the end of part 3 was when everything went wrong, or in this book, where the tower was captured at the end of part 2. Both books still ended on a fairly positive note, despite the stakes being raised for the future.

[Stormfather's Beard]

3 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said:

While it's possible that the heroes will lose book 5, it doesn't quite seem to fit with Brandon's other work. Yes, we've seem situations where the protagonists are worse off then when they started, like WoA, or this book, but it's never bleak per say. It always ends with an ending that makes you feel like things are good. having the protagonists just objectively lose, get soundly defeated, or whatnot, just doesn't quite fit with the way that Brandon writes his stories.

What i think will instead happen, is that the book will in fact take place over more then 10 days, and that something will go horribly horribly wrong, and the end of the first arc of the book (he writes each book like a trilogy) will be the heroes suffering some form of defeat for them to dramatically struggle back against for the rest of the book, ending on either a draw, or a somewhat positive note, leaving us with a clear view of what is going to happen in ~10 years in the back half of the series.

We've seen that Brandon is willing to write the protagonists being defeated, but he does it more often in the middle or start of the book. Like Oathbringer, in the end of part 3 was when everything went wrong, or in this book, where the tower was captured at the end of part 2. Both books still ended on a fairly positive note, despite the stakes being raised for the future.

You can have a pyrrhic victory. You can have defeats that don't feel awful (Empire Strikes Back for example). The problem we've got is that there are already problems with the stakes starting to become a bit meaningless - and the characters have consistently and reliably beaten "god" now. Right, ok then, now what? It makes the book deeply predictable, which eventually becomes boring.

Off the top of my head, I could see the book ending where humanity (and the listeners) are forced to flee from Roshar, reforge the Oathpact in a new form to hold Todium (and presumably Dalinar) on Roshar for a short time, ready to go back and deal with them once and for all in the second arc. There would be heavy losses, massive ramifications, but it could also be an ending where they make the best of a terrible situation. It doesn't have to feel bleak - there are plenty of examples of losses that don't have "bad" endings. Its all about perception.

Also, Sanderson is not afraid to try things out. This book has a good deal more gore in it than previous books of his for example (not to mu taste but there we are), and this series has dealt with things like mental health (granted with mixed results) in a way that we have never seen before in his work. I didn't say I was right, but I hope to actually have a clever enemy - I overestimated Rayse as an enemy, assuming he had more than 3 moves ahead planned in his chess game,but he didn't - he was barely managing 2 moves ahead - fewer by the end - and if Todium is more competent he *should* win because Rayse was pretty close and he was (it turns out) a bit of an idiot.

 

[Blacksmithki]

10 minutes ago, Stormfather's Beard said:

You can have a pyrrhic victory. You can have defeats that don't feel awful (Empire Strikes Back for example). The problem we've got is that there are already problems with the stakes starting to become a bit meaningless - and the characters have consistently and reliably beaten "god" now. Right, ok then, now what? It makes the book deeply predictable, which eventually becomes boring.

Off the top of my head, I could see the book ending where humanity (and the listeners) are forced to flee from Roshar, reforge the Oathpact in a new form to hold Todium (and presumably Dalinar) on Roshar for a short time, ready to go back and deal with them once and for all in the second arc. There would be heavy losses, massive ramifications, but it could also be an ending where they make the best of a terrible situation. It doesn't have to feel bleak - there are plenty of examples of losses that don't have "bad" endings. Its all about perception.

Also, Sanderson is not afraid to try things out. This book has a good deal more gore in it than previous books of his for example (not to mu taste but there we are), and this series has dealt with things like mental health (granted with mixed results) in a way that we have never seen before in his work. I didn't say I was right, but I hope to actually have a clever enemy - I overestimated Rayse as an enemy, assuming he had more than 3 moves ahead planned in his chess game,but he didn't - he was barely managing 2 moves ahead - fewer by the end - and if Todium is more competent he *should* win because Rayse was pretty close and he was (it turns out) a bit of an idiot.

 

I think that you may be partially right, I definitely don't think it's going to be an outright victory, but i just don't think it'll be a defeat either.

I think that as you said, a pyrric victory is the most likely result. A bloody, expensive victory to buy them time to either confront a new threat, or to prepare for Odium's next play in 10 or so years. He did say after all that if he lost he would be able to focus more on his agents on other worlds. Could be that this is the threat of the back 5.

What would be absolutely fascinating is the question of whether or not a champion actually has to be willing to fight for you? I don't think this has ever been explicitely stated. It might just be that Rayse was playing only to win, and wasn't thinking about how he could turn a defeat to his advantage.

Think about how completely it would break the spirits of the alliance if Taravangian chose Kaladin as his champion, and Kaladin was forced to either fight for Odium or to let himself be killed. Taravangian knows that the fuzed will keep coming, and that he can still possibly draw in threats from other worlds, so if he just breaks the spirit of the defenders he may win the war even as he loses the battle. Obviously he wouldn't do this if he thought he had champion who could actually win, but just think about what an absolutely evil twist that would be.

Also, if Taravangian can manage to get into a position where he feels like he has an advantage, he could also feasibly set up a situation where the fight to the death doesn't end because neither side can/will kill each other. There's nothing stated a truce must be formed other then for the 2 individuals fighting.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Blacksmithki

[WindJogger]

24 minutes ago, Stormfather's Beard said:

You can have a pyrrhic victory. You can have defeats that don't feel awful (Empire Strikes Back for example). The problem we've got is that there are already problems with the stakes starting to become a bit meaningless - and the characters have consistently and reliably beaten "god" now. Right, ok then, now what? It makes the book deeply predictable, which eventually becomes boring.

Off the top of my head, I could see the book ending where humanity (and the listeners) are forced to flee from Roshar, reforge the Oathpact in a new form to hold Todium (and presumably Dalinar) on Roshar for a short time, ready to go back and deal with them once and for all in the second arc. There would be heavy losses, massive ramifications, but it could also be an ending where they make the best of a terrible situation. It doesn't have to feel bleak - there are plenty of examples of losses that don't have "bad" endings. Its all about perception.

Also, Sanderson is not afraid to try things out. This book has a good deal more gore in it than previous books of his for example (not to mu taste but there we are), and this series has dealt with things like mental health (granted with mixed results) in a way that we have never seen before in his work. I didn't say I was right, but I hope to actually have a clever enemy - I overestimated Rayse as an enemy, assuming he had more than 3 moves ahead planned in his chess game,but he didn't - he was barely managing 2 moves ahead - fewer by the end - and if Todium is more competent he *should* win because Rayse was pretty close and he was (it turns out) a bit of an idiot.

 

I completely agree with you, some part of me keeps thinking that T was under the influence of Cultivation's "Boon" which made him stupider which would in turn drive him towards a path that Odium wasn't anticipating thus giving him an edge, but based on Harmony's letters, it is foreshadowed that TOdium is going to be an even worse enemy which just makes it a bit shortsighted for her to set T loose like that. Now, If she did it for revenge, then that is something I can also understand, but right now I am just wishing and grasping for straws; I am sure once we zoom out onto the Cosmere, things will start to make more sense. 

Edited November 20, 2020 by WindJogger

[Blacksmithki]

12 minutes ago, WindJogger said:

I completely agree with you, some part of me keeps thinking that T was under the influence of Cultivation's "Boon" which made him stupider which would in turn drive him towards a path that Odium wasn't anticipating thus giving him an edge, but based on Harmony's letters, it is foreshadowed that TOdium is going to be an even worse enemy which just makes it a bit shortsighted for her to set T loose like that. Now, If she did it for revenge, then that is something I can also understand, but right now I am just wishing and grasping for straws; I am sure once we zoom out onto the Cosmere, things will start to make more sense. 

I really liked the idea that Cultivation has just expanded her scope. Clearly the holders of shards are wearing out, so what better job for Cultivation then to cultivate new vessels?

This creates a perfect bridge to the greater cosmere if she decides to make new vessels for other shards, and surgebinders are strong enough to pose a threat to anyone if they can solve the problems with going offworld. It also allows mistborn to move into the greater cosmere at it's own rate, as it doesn't need a new vessel, it already has one.

[CaptainRyan]

Perhaps Hoid planned this encounter to go the way it did, or perhaps not. Personally, I hope Hoid was outwitted (pun intended) because no character should be unbeatable. Plus, seeing Hoid be outsmarted is an excellent way to set up Tod's credentials as the Real Deal (TM). I worry that Brandon is being clever, and that Hoid planned this as a way to throw off Tod. I guess we can wait 3 years to find out haha.

[Blacksmithki]

8 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

Perhaps Hoid planned this encounter to go the way it did, or perhaps not. Personally, I hope Hoid was outwitted (pun intended) because no character should be unbeatable. Plus, seeing Hoid be outsmarted is an excellent way to set up Tod's credentials as the Real Deal (TM). I worry that Brandon is being clever, and that Hoid planned this as a way to throw off Tod. I guess we can wait 3 years to find out haha.

It could also just be both. It could be Hoid being careful and paranoid but still caught completely off guard at actually needing to use it.

[WindJogger]

1 hour ago, Blacksmithki said:

I really liked the idea that Cultivation has just expanded her scope. Clearly the holders of shards are wearing out, so what better job for Cultivation then to cultivate new vessels?

This creates a perfect bridge to the greater cosmere if she decides to make new vessels for other shards, and surgebinders are strong enough to pose a threat to anyone if they can solve the problems with going offworld. It also allows mistborn to move into the greater cosmere at it's own rate, as it doesn't need a new vessel, it already has one.

Right, Also I am seeing more and more that a potential solution to most of the Cosmere's shard related squabbles seems to be along the lines of what was done in Scadrial; as Navani described the Stormlight & Voidlight mixture as being in some sort of Harmony. Having seen Sazed's current limitations, I think that it allows for a deity to exist while allowing its world to just be; this last thought just gave a whole new meaning to "Unite Them". 

[Blacksmithki]

1 minute ago, WindJogger said:

Right, Also I am seeing more and more that a potential solution to most of the Cosmere's shard related squabbles seems to be along the lines of what was done in Scadrial; as Navani described the Stormlight & Voidlight mixture as being in some sort of Harmony. Having seen Sazed's current limitations, I think that it allows for a deity to exist while allowing its world to just be; this last thought just gave a whole new meaning to "Unite Them". 

Well that only works because Harmony is made up of two completely opposite shards. Unless you can find two shards that perfectly opposed you wouldn't have someone quite so limited.

[Singer]

1 hour ago, CaptainRyan said:

Perhaps Hoid planned this encounter to go the way it did, or perhaps not. Personally, I hope Hoid was outwitted (pun intended) because no character should be unbeatable. Plus, seeing Hoid be outsmarted is an excellent way to set up Tod's credentials as the Real Deal (TM). I worry that Brandon is being clever, and that Hoid planned this as a way to throw off Tod. I guess we can wait 3 years to find out haha.

I am really hoping to see a moment in book five where Hoid/Jasnah/someone realizes that Hoid's memories have been altered and infiltrated in some way. I would much rather that than Wit secretly outwitting TOd when he didn't even know about the TOd switch in the first place.

[Blacksmithki]

3 minutes ago, Singer said:

I am really hoping to see a moment in book five where Hoid/Jasnah/someone realizes that Hoid's memories have been altered and infiltrated in some way. I would much rather that than Wit secretly outwitting TOd when he didn't even know about the TOd switch in the first place.

Well there's actually quite a few ways he could know about it and be faking for Taravangian's sake (I'm proposing things that might be the case more so then arguing that they are here)

If he saw Rayse's body he probably would know. If Renarin talked to him he would likely know. If anyone told Jasnah about Taravangian being killed in an incredibly strange manner he could very likely have gone to see the body. He may have a way of communicating with Cultivation, does anyone know what his relationship with her is like? He's also aware enough of a lot of information that if Taravangian decided to change from what Rayse was doing in Roshar in general Hoid may have become suspicious.

So it's not really a perfectly safe bet that he didn't know about the vessel changing.

[Maths]

I wonder if there's some kind of intent involved with what Taravangian was capable of doing in terms of the memories.

It'd be pretty hard to argue that e.g. removing all of Hoid's memories wouldn't harm him, but maybe just removing the previous conversation and rerunning it was a small enough change (and for some motivation that we don't know about) that Taravangian could convince himself it wouldn't harm Hoid?

[+Oltux72]

2 hours ago, Blacksmithki said:

I think that you may be partially right, I definitely don't think it's going to be an outright victory, but i just don't think it'll be a defeat either.

I think that as you said, a pyrric victory is the most likely result. A bloody, expensive victory to buy them time to either confront a new threat, or to prepare for Odium's next play in 10 or so years. He did say after all that if he lost he would be able to focus more on his agents on other worlds. Could be that this is the threat of the back 5.

What then was the purpose of throwing four new Shards into the game? And why the change of vessel?

2 hours ago, Blacksmithki said:

What would be absolutely fascinating is the question of whether or not a champion actually has to be willing to fight for you?

It was stated. "willingly chosen".

 

[Blacksmithki]

1 minute ago, Oltux72 said:

What then was the purpose of throwing four new Shards into the game? And why the change of vessel?

It was stated. "willingly chosen".

 

Actually it states "Willing champion" but yes, i did miss that one word.

As for the change of vessel, I would say that if it were just Rayse, then where it stands right now he's absolutely doomed.

I mean, he's currently facing against the full power of the radiants, with all the spren once more behind them, possibly with the eventual support of a Singer nation bonding corrupted spren and with freaking chasmfiends on their side, the bondsmiths reunited, and honestly i think that the ability to die for good is more of a downside for the Fuzed then the Spren. Spren can flee or just not take a harmable form but the fuzed cannot. Not to mention they just lost their only real scholar and we know how skilled at developing massive new technology the humans are. Odium's blindness is now effectively spreading with more corrupted lightweavers, and don't forget the full support of Hoid. And for the sake of it, lets include already being down 3 unmade (2 out of the fight, 1 working against him).

But Taravangian is completely out of the blue and is a huge wildcard.

[FollowYourMuse]

7 hours ago, Blacksmithki said:

The only thing that really detracts from this is that Hoid appeared to be very scared, but who knows? Maybe Odium has some ability to sense emotion or can just read people very very well. It fits with so much of him being themed around passion and emotion.

I think it is possible he is playing Odium, remembering his sneaking into the palace to rescue Design there was a big monologue on making himself bland, unnoticed, Passions and emotions are what Odium "sees", this could have been part of the act.