Epilogue Implications

[+Aletus]

I mean, it speaks for itself. He should never have gave any indication he was Hoiding about. 

Seems fairly certain he lost his breath, and presumably some of his memories. That would have huge cosmere-spanning implications. 

Do we think any of his other collected investiture was attacked? 

[Harkain]

You should probably put ROW spoilers in the title just to make sure people don't accidentally come here by accident.

Tho also yea, ramifications of it are huge.
ROW spoilers below.

Spoiler

1. Tells us how Hoid maintains his memory. Probably some clues for how he maintains his sanity as well but I don't think we know enough about Cognitive Shadows for that.
2. Considering Hoid is playing an increasingly big hand through ROW and looks set to play even more of a role now that he can play openly, Taravangian being able to actively manipulate his memories is terrifying and does not bode well for the Radiants. From what it looks like he got bought down to below the second heightening as well based off his comment on perfect pitch so hopefully he'll be able to figure out something is up from that tho.

 

[Elsecaller_17.5]

2 hours ago, Arch1tect said:

I mean, it speaks for itself. He should never have gave any indication he was Hoiding about. 

Seems fairly certain he lost his breath, and presumably some of his memories. That would have huge cosmere-spanning implications. 

Do we think any of his other collected investiture was attacked? 

I am certain that he only removed those few minutes of memory.  Odium wouldn't risk tipping Wit off.

[WeLoveMoash]

Yeah, i tentatively think that Mr. T realized that he gave too much away to Wit in the first interaction. Wit left realizing that something was strange with "Rayse". So he went back, pruned the conversation, and then tried it again so that he could come across as simple, dumb, and straightforward. Notice how hammy and over-the-top his performance feels in the second conversation - same lines from Wit, but Odium just being full of "I will defeat you grrrr". 

Otherwise, I don't think memories at large were destroyed. Now that said, I do feel its fully possible that memories were viewed, and this might give Mr. T some access to unexpected knowledge. But removing any significant amount of memories from Wit feels like it would tip him off at some point in one way or another. 

That said, if he did, then I imagine perfect pitch could be the clue that Wit finally uses to crack the case. It's not clear if Mr. T would know or realize that breath gives Wit his pitch, and therefore might not have realized that he'd be able to tell based on the lack of it.

Really interested to see where this goes.

[+HoidIsAwesome]

Also seems likely that Design would help him on this journey of discovery to figure out what Todd did.

[+Child of Hodor]

8 hours ago, Harkain said:

You should probably put ROW spoilers in the title just to make sure people don't accidentally come here by accident.

Tho also yea, ramifications of it are huge.
ROW spoilers below.

  Hide contents

1. Tells us how Hoid maintains his memory. Probably some clues for how he maintains his sanity as well but I don't think we know enough about Cognitive Shadows for that.
2. Considering Hoid is playing an increasingly big hand through ROW and looks set to play even more of a role now that he can play openly, Taravangian being able to actively manipulate his memories is terrifying and does not bode well for the Radiants. From what it looks like he got bought down to below the second heightening as well based off his comment on perfect pitch so hopefully he'll be able to figure out something is up from that tho.

 

Ooooh I hadn’t thought about the 2nd point. He could alter Hoid’s stored memory making him give bad advice to Jasnah and co. He thinks he is giving good advice based on his past experience, but those experiences didn’t happen like he “remembers”.

The other thing is this new vessel is now far better informed than Sazed. He was able to rummage through the memories of a being who knew the original Shard vessels and was alive pre-Shattering. Plus Hoid meddled on seemingly all the Shard worlds post-shattering. He also wrote to and received letters from Shards.

New Odium has a much better understanding of the Cosmere than any new shard previous. Probably more so than the original vessels. 

With the benefit of hindsight I think it’s clear that Frost was correct. Hoid should have stayed away.

Edited November 18, 2020 by Child of Hodor

[Necessary Eagle]

9 hours ago, Harkain said:

You should probably put ROW spoilers in the title just to make sure people don't accidentally come here by accident.

Tho also yea, ramifications of it are huge.
ROW spoilers below.

  Hide contents

1. Tells us how Hoid maintains his memory. Probably some clues for how he maintains his sanity as well but I don't think we know enough about Cognitive Shadows for that.
2. Considering Hoid is playing an increasingly big hand through ROW and looks set to play even more of a role now that he can play openly, Taravangian being able to actively manipulate his memories is terrifying and does not bode well for the Radiants. From what it looks like he got bought down to below the second heightening as well based off his comment on perfect pitch so hopefully he'll be able to figure out something is up from that tho.

 

Hoid isn't a CS. Though maybe just being plain immortal has its own problems.

[Leuthie]

Spoiler

Hoid mentions a promise Rayse made when taking up Shards that protects Hoid. Mr. T didn't make that promise and might not be held to it.

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by Leuthie

[---]

8 hours ago, WeLoveMoash said:

I do feel its fully possible that memories were viewed,

I mean, I would think so too, as Mr. T was able to show Hoid what he wanted to see in the end. Scary Scary Scary. 

6 hours ago, Leuthie said:

Hoid mentions a promise Rayse made when taking up Shards that protects Hoid. Mr. T didn't make that promise and might not be held to it.

Mr. T did try, no? I assumed that it was bound to Odium and not the Vessel honestly. Otherwise I guess he might be using Hoid as a Pawn. 

But yeah, That Epilogue was absolutely terrifying to read. Agh. I- Agh. 

[TheOneKEA]

I agree with the others - Todd (what a hilarious name for an infinite emotion) either rewrote Hoid’s short-term memory to cover up his blunder in revealing himself as the new Vessel, or destroyed a portion of Hoid’s long-term memory by corrupting/eliminating some of his Breaths.

[+robardin]

I thought it was very interesting that Hoid thought - knew - he could get away with an in-person tweaking of Rayse-Odium after building in wording to protect himself in his Latest Agreement, but immediately realized the danger he was in if "Odium destroyed the Breaths that held his memories". Something Rayse-Odium could have done all along, but was just not the type to think of doing something like that - like most bullies, Rayse thought only in terms of crushing or dominating or humiliating or destroying, not something as subtle as "I don't believe this will cause you actual harm... it seems my [predecessor's] agreements will allow me to..."

And I'm thinking he did more than just snip out or edit the last few minutes of Hoid's most recent memories. He seemed to have lost perfect pitch afterward, which is something attained at the Second Heightening. So it's possible he removed enough Breaths to drop Hoid from wherever he had been to just under the Second Heightening, which could be significant.

Yeah, Cultivation may have managed to settle one personal grudge in engineering Rayse the Vessel's destruction, but at the cost of now putting a much more subtle and long-term planner in the driver's seat of the most dangerous of the sixteen Shards.

Please let's not call Taravangian-Odium "Todd", LOL. Maybe Tarod? (Well, that's possibly a callback to the Time Master fantasy trilogy by Louise cooper, so maybe not.)

[Brgst13]

How about Toad?  And that epilogue...wow...I have no words.  Terrifying.

[Necessary Eagle]

6 minutes ago, robardin said:

And I'm thinking he did more than just snip out or edit the last few minutes of Hoid's most recent memories. He seemed to have lost perfect pitch afterward, which is something attained at the Second Heightening. So it's possible he removed enough Breaths to drop Hoid from wherever he had been to just under the Second Heightening, which could be significant.

Could turn out to be a good thing if the loss of Breaths ends up tipping off Hoid that something's wrong.

[+robardin]

15 minutes ago, Brgst13 said:

How about Toad?  And that epilogue...wow...I have no words.  Terrifying.

Odium II: Vargo's Revenge?

And isn't it interesting that Taravangian-Odium... Sigh... "Todd" is pretty sharp, even though he Ascended while being a weepy, angry, passion-filled mushhead who could barely read? Maybe Cultivation didn't anticipate that bit, eh?

[Slowfast]

On 11/18/2020 at 4:54 PM, Necessary Eagle said:

Hoid isn't a CS. Though maybe just being plain immortal has its own problems.

I think it's that the brain has limited storage space, so, to keep the memories he gathered, after all he has like 14,000 years of memory to keep track of or something ludicrous, he was forced to store them externally as investiture, in this case, as breath.

Edited November 19, 2020 by Slowfast
Changing how I want to word it.

[FollowYourMuse]

I think T-odium may have out-witted Wit with the memory erase, as T-Odium is more subtle and sneaky than R-Odium,  but I am not so sure that Wit was totally "unsuccessful" in what he was doing. 
 

Quote

"The challenge," he said, "is to make everyone believe you've lived a thousand lives. Make them feel the pain you have not felt, make them see the sights you have not seen, and make them know the truths that you have made up." ~ Hoid

I can't see your mind, but I can see these, can 't I? ~T-Odium

ROW Epilogue

So were the memories stored in the breath real? or something Hoid wanted him to think were real? 


 

[TiaOmi]

On 19.11.2020 at 2:44 AM, robardin said:

Please let's not call Taravangian-Odium "Todd", LOL. Maybe Tarod? (Well, that's possibly a callback to the Time Master fantasy trilogy by Louise cooper, so maybe not.)

I think Tod is very appropriate, since in German it means - Death.

 

My ultimate hope is that Hoid foresaw the possibility of Odium meddling with him, and used this.

If Renarin knew that Odium has a new Vessel and told Jasnah and Wit, they could have played something like this - go meet Odium, make him believe that we don't know anything, have him search the memories for a champion, plant false memories.

Al least I hope.

 

 

[+robardin]

58 minutes ago, TiaOmi said:

I think Tod is very appropriate, since in German it means - Death.

 

My ultimate hope is that Hoid foresaw the possibility of Odium meddling with him, and used this.

If Renarin knew that Odium has a new Vessel and told Jasnah and Wit, they could have played something like this - go meet Odium, make him believe that we don't know anything, have him search the memories for a champion, plant false memories.

Al least I hope.

Ooh, Tod with one D to mean Death. Nice. Though Odium isn't exactly that, and we have yet to see how Taravangian will redirect its... Passions. It could be less destructive, who knows?

I don't think Hoid foresaw Odium going to another Vessel in the time between accepting the championship fight contract he drew up and meeting up with him to gloat over it. He definitely assumed the clause he put in there about not being able to hurt him directly would mean Odium would not "put hands" on him, which he must have thought was because that's how Rayse would have interpreted it. But Taravangian is more sly.

I am increasingly sure that the whole "I am not like Honor; when you have an agreement with me, I will keep it in spirit and not only in word" was something of Rayse, not of the Shard he bore. And Taravangian is definitely someone who would look for loopholes to exploit, that's basically what the Diagram was all about.

[Realmatic Shadow]

Quote

For the first time in a long, long while, Wit felt true terror. If Odium destroyed the Breaths that held his memories...

This line is what scares me most in this entire exchange. Even when held at the tip of Jasnah's Ivoryblade he was not scared, but with Tod having found he could fiddle with those memories and Breaths, he was truly terrified. This could be part of his act, so that even if Odium could see into his mind he'd see the terror there, but I don't think that is likely here.

Throughout reading the Cosmere up to this point, I've always felt that Hoid was a character that was constantly in control of his situation, and was always able to get out unscathed. This interaction has shaken this belief firmly, and for me shown just how big a threat Tod poses to all our characters.

I feel that this specific interaction might also have been a way for Brandon to show to those of us much more knowledgeable about the Cosmere just how worrisome Odium was, because a lot of us had underestimated the threat he poses. By showing that even one of the most knowledgeable characters in the entire Cosmere, who had lived for longer than any other character we have a viewpoint from and has seen events we still don't fully understand (namely, the Shattering), was seriously scared when confronting this new Vessel, and has been left somewhat for the worse after their interaction.

[Blacksmithki]

I'm actually fairly hopeful from this epilogue, despite how scary it is.

It seems to me that it is very likely that hoid pulled off an incredibly clever trick on Taravangian.

So there are a few things we know happened.

1. Hoid lost a lot of breaths if he appears to have lost perfect pitch. He may just be able to recover them without too much difficulty but that's not too relevant.

2. Hoid was talking about how to deceive people, and how to convince them that you have lived countless lives you haven't.

3. Hoid has only lost his short term memories, or he would have absolutely noticed something was wrong. Losing too many memories is too significant to just not notice, or for him to notice between books.

 

What I think may have happened, is that Hoid managed to store fake memories in his breaths for Odium to see and steal. Taravangian knows relatively little about the greater cosmere, so this is the absolutely perfect time to provide him with a few key falsehoods that could cripple him later.

Renarin probably knows Taravangian is Odium, Hoid may have a way to know that as well, or maybe he saw the effects of nightblood, or recognized Rhyse.

He may have even sent away Design, so Taravangian thought he could get away with it.

Brandon loves to foreshadow and whatnot, so the discussion about deceit and stories would be a perfect way to foreshadow this. Even gives the epilogue name extra relevance, with both sides playing a massive trick on each other. And thinking on it, it'd even be Brandon playing a trick on the Audience.

The only thing that really detracts from this is that Hoid appeared to be very scared, but who knows? Maybe Odium has some ability to sense emotion or can just read people very very well. It fits with so much of him being themed around passion and emotion.

And besides, Hoid told Jasnah he would he free to help her to the extent he could, and what can he possibly do better then information? What better way to cripple a new shard?

Honestly I probably should have just made this a whole independant post/thread.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Blacksmithki

[Leuthie]

The full monty:

1. Hoid attached actual memories to Design (because why wouldn't he be able to do this?)
2. Hoid replaced those memories on himself with fakes.
3. Hoid "forgot" he did these things (stored his knowledge of this switch on Design)
4. TOdium finds the memories.
5. Hoid forgets they are fake and has genuine terror.
6. TOdium suspects nothing and steals the fake memories.
7. Hoid let's us know he's missing so many Breaths that he's lost perfect pitch. (confusing the audience)
8. Hoid notices that Design has way too much Investiture, finds the Breaths and "remembers" everything. (but we don't get to see that)
9. TOdium is tricked, Hoid has full knowledge of the trick AND what TOdium thinks he knows, TOdium believes Hoid is neutralized, Hoid can play dumb for a while (even put his Memories somewhere else so TOdium doesn't see him fully Invested until it plays out)

 

[Blacksmithki]

One further reason to think the ending might have actually gone well is that in one of the letters from Hoid he refers to Rayse as 'one of the most loathsome, crafty, and dangerous individuals i had ever met'.

Sure, he was weakened by his 10 000 years as Odium, but with how much he hates Hoid you can only imagine if 'hurting' him was as simple as interfering with his memories and breaths he would have realized at some point that it was possible. Or even if not Odium, why wouldn't Hoid be absolutely terrified of Autonomy? surely he/she could do the same thing, and appears to be not nearly as damaged by her time as a shard as Rayse is.

[Kingsdaughter613]

28 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said:

One further reason to think the ending might have actually gone well is that in one of the letters from Hoid he refers to Rayse as 'one of the most loathsome, crafty, and dangerous individuals i had ever met'.

Sure, he was weakened by his 10 000 years as Odium, but with how much he hates Hoid you can only imagine if 'hurting' him was as simple as interfering with his memories and breaths he would have realized at some point that it was possible. Or even if not Odium, why wouldn't Hoid be absolutely terrified of Autonomy? surely he/she could do the same thing, and appears to be not nearly as damaged by her time as a shard as Rayse is.

On the other hand, sometimes it takes new eyes to see the obvious. Rayse may not have thought of such a trick precisely because of those 10,000 years assuming he couldn’t. That’s why it’s sometimes the junior team member who points out the answer the experts have been struggling with for weeks.

[Stormfather's Beard]

As someone who wants/expects the heroes to lose in book 5 in a significant way, I think we might find that Hoid *has* been fooled here. I certainly hope so - much as I like him he should be able to make mistakes. Rodium didn't see his own death coming, so it is possible that Hoid has been equally fooled/misled. He certainly doesn't always have good foresight in other situations we've seen him in.

I seem to be the only one here though that assumes this is *bad* for the good guys and not a major play - I know Hoid is tricksy but arguably, with cultivation's interference, Taravangian was already more crafty and dangerous than even Rayse was - and he had more direct knowledge and likely more control over the Shard and its intent because he is a new bearer. Also, while Todium might well have some old memories of Hoid (when he was Cephandrius) there won't be a personal connection afaik which means Todium will be more rational (at least initially) than Rodium was when it came to dealing with him. 

[Blacksmithki]

1 minute ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

On the other hand, sometimes it takes new eyes to see the obvious. Rayse may not have thought of such a trick precisely because of those 10,000 years assuming he couldn’t. That’s why it’s sometimes the junior team member who points out the answer the experts have been struggling with for weeks.

Still, Autonomy is also creating new avatars that seem to think independently. It just seems that someone would have stumbled across such an idea within the past 10 000 years.