Thaidakar's Identity

[Jellomancer]

Okay, this is a fantastic thread, and I'm joining the party late, but it seems like a lot of evidence has been presented to support the theory that Kelsier is Thaidakar. While I respect why some fans are reticent to accept this idea, it seems like the evidence for it being true is overwhelming. I wanted to take a look at the evidence presented as a whole, both what has been discussed previously and a few of my own observations. Let me know if I'm missing anything major and forgive me if this dips into ground already well-covered:

Evidence for Kelsier being Thaidakar (Cosmere-Wide Spoilers Ahead!)

• Thaidakar's title as "Lord of Scars" seems to point strongly to Kelsier's famous wounds as the "Survivor of Hathsin".
   
• Thaidakar is described as carrying an affliction similar to the heralds. This makes sense as Kelsier is also a cognitive shadow--ironically, one whose sanity has also been tested during his imprisonment with Ruin in the Well of Ascension. It makes sense that Kel would be very interested in studying someone in his similar predicament, and considering how far-gone the heralds are mentally, I could totally see Kelsier talking himself into why this is morally acceptable.
   
• Mraize seems to indicate that Thaidakar cannot travel easily--or at least he chooses not to. This matches Kelsier's condition being tied to Scadrial.
   
• Iyatil is of Southern Scadrian descent. While the information we have suggests that she is from Silverlight (with ties to the Seventeenth Shard, which is a whole different nest of sky-eels), her ties to Southern Scadrial are significant considering that the last time we saw Kel (at the end of The Bands of Mourning), he was hanging out with Southern Scadrians who treat him as a divine figure. This tidbit is complicated by the fact that the events of Mistborn Era 2 take place after Stormlight Era 1, but the tie still works. We know from Wax's vision that Kelsier encountered the Southern Scadrians hundreds of years previous, and by that point he's already likely been hemalurgically spiked back to a physical body.
   
• We know that Hoid has slapped Thaidakar around before. While its possible Hoid has been able to do this to someone else besides Kelsier, it seems unlikely. It also sounds like Hoid wouldn't mind doing it again. Hoid referring to Scadrial as "a stupid planet" doesn't eliminate this possibility just because of his letters with Harmony--he insults literally everyone, and plus, Scadrial isn't anywhere close to inventing instant noodles yet. 
   
• Mraize's cube from the Ire also could point to Kelsier. We know that Kelsier has tangled with the Ire before at their fortress on the edge of the Scadrian subastral. Even if Kel didn't directly procure the cube (and the special little fellow inside), it is telling that Mraize has yet another curious device from them. While the previous assumption has been that Kel has never world-hopped due to his connection to Scadrial, it seems plausible that he could get to somewhere close like Sel (since the Ire somehow have connected their fortress to Sel-ish investiture, if I understood right) or even Threnody (the Ire seem very concerned about Threnody shades turning up in that area). This opens the door to the idea Kel could have world-hopped and been seen by Hoid, but he may not be able to do so easily or freely.
   
• The twisted morality of the Ghostbloods does line up with Kel's previous exploits. As readers, I know we want to think of Kel as an infallible hero, but his behavior throughout the Mistborn series reveals he operates in some interesting moral grey areas. His hatred for the nobles of Scadrial manifested more than once in a bloodthirsty streak. He had no scruples about deceiving skaa to set him up as a religious figure, a notion he appears to repeat again with the Southern Scadrians stepping into the role of The Sovereign. He literally punched Preservation in the face without qualms. Kelsier has ultimately been a hero figure so far, but the Cosmere is full of morally complex characters (e.g. Raboniel, Leshwe, Marsh, Shallan, Jasnah, etc.). If I remember correctly, I think even Vin considers that Kelsier had a dark side. It's also telling that he couldn't hold the shard of Preservation long, implying he just had too much Ruin in him. In the end, Kel seems a "the ends justify the means" sort, and even more so, he's a gambler which lines up with much of the Ghostbloods complex moves.
   
• We have a WoB confirming that Kelsier could lead the Ghostbloods and that his mentality lines up with theirs. This was a rather masterful way of avoiding giving a RAFO on the topic, by the way.
   
• We have strong evidence to suggest that Thaidakar is a title, like Mraize. As others in the thread have indicated, this implies the Ghostbloods may have existed previously under different leadership. The aforementioned WoB also hints at this--Kelsier wouldn't need to found this group to end up in charge of it.
   
• The Ghostbloods have a strong interest in finding ways to transport investiture across worlds. This would both interest Kelsier personally (as it could provide a way for him off Scadrial or perhaps to keep his cognitive shadow from decaying), and it lines up business-wise with Kelsier's crew leader mentality. We also have a WoB that the Ghostbloods consider the methods they are exploring both the most-sustainable and least-ethically-dubious, which is interesting. Kel is a man with good business sense, and he had an interesting way of manipulating the criminal underworld on Scadrial. It seems plausible he is doing the same thing with the Ghostbloods, directing bad people towards means that ultimately serve greater goals.
   
• This is one is a bit meta, but Brandon is a master of delivering on foreshadowing. As many have pointed out, you don't put this much work into setting up a red herring unless there will be a satisfying payoff. It feels like Brandon has been uniquely quiet about Kelsier as he might relate to the larger Cosmere--he's put off Wax and Wayne 4 for several years, been mum about doing a second Secret History, and has answered questions about Kelsier in a way to keep fans enticed but not indicate too many strong connections to the Stormlight Archives. Unless this is leading to a left-field switch (like Thaidakar being Spook or Marsh or even Mare, which is much more far-fetched), this whole thing screams that we are getting payoff after years of foreshadowing. Rhythm of War was, in many ways, a non-stop Brandon-avalanche of payoffs for fan theories relating to the Cosmere as a whole (I screamed so many times during the last chapters lol). It would take so many storytelling acrobatics at this point for Thaidakar to not be Kelsier that it would start to strain disbelief. Is it possible? Sure, but it's pretty unlikely given the evidence and the writer.

This has been quite the fun one to dive into! 

 

Edited December 30, 2020 by Jellomancer
I added a line to the bit about transporting investiture related to a WoB where Brandon talks about the Ghostbloods views on transporting investiture.

[Kingsdaughter613]

2 hours ago, Jellomancer said:

Okay, this is a fantastic thread, and I'm joining the party late, but it seems like a lot of evidence has been presented to support the theory that Kelsier is Thaidakar. While I respect why some fans are reticent to accept this idea, it seems like the evidence for it being true is overwhelming. I wanted to take a look at the evidence presented as a whole, both what has been discussed previously and a few of my own observations. Let me know if I'm missing anything major and forgive me if this dips into ground already well-covered:

Evidence for Kelsier being Thaidakar (Cosmere-Wide Spoilers Ahead!)

• Thaidakar's title as "Lord of Scars" seems to point strongly to Kelsier's famous wounds as the "Survivor of Hathsin".
   
• Thaidakar is described as carrying an affliction similar to the heralds. This makes sense as Kelsier is also a cognitive shadow--ironically, one whose sanity has also been tested during his imprisonment with Ruin in the Well of Ascension. It makes sense that Kel would be very interested in studying someone in his similar predicament, and considering how far-gone the heralds are mentally, I could totally see Kelsier talking himself into why this is morally acceptable.
   
• Mraize seems to indicate that Thaidakar cannot travel easily--or at least he chooses not to. This matches Kelsier's condition being tied to Scadrial.
   
• Iyatil is of Southern Scadrian descent. While the information we have suggests that she is from Silverlight (with ties to the Seventeenth Shard, which is a whole different nest of sky-eels), her ties to Southern Scadrial are significant considering that the last time we saw Kel (at the end of The Bands of Mourning), he was hanging out with Southern Scadrians who treat him as a divine figure. This tidbit is complicated by the fact that the events of Mistborn Era 2 take place after Stormlight Era 1, but the tie still works. We know from Wax's vision that Kelsier encountered the Southern Scadrians hundreds of years previous, and by that point he's already likely been hemalurgically spiked back to a physical body.
   
• We know that Hoid has slapped Thaidakar around before. While its possible Hoid has been able to do this to someone else besides Kelsier, it seems unlikely. It also sounds like Hoid wouldn't mind doing it again. Hoid referring to Scadrial as "a stupid planet" doesn't eliminate this possibility just because of his letters with Harmony--he insults literally everyone, and plus, Scadrial isn't anywhere close to inventing instant noodles yet. 
   
• Mraize's cube from the Ire also could point to Kelsier. We know that Kelsier has tangled with the Ire before at their fortress on the edge of the Scadrian subastral. Even if Kel didn't directly procure the cube (and the special little fellow inside), it is telling that Mraize has yet another curious device from them. While the previous assumption has been that Kel has never world-hopped due to his connection to Scadrial, it seems plausible that he could get to somewhere close like Sel (since the Ire somehow have connected their fortress to Sel-ish investiture, if I understood right) or even Threnody (the Ire seem very concerned about Threnody shades turning up in that area). This opens the door to the idea Kel could have world-hopped and been seen by Hoid, but he may not be able to do so easily or freely.
   
• The twisted morality of the Ghostbloods does line up with Kel's previous exploits. As readers, I know we want to think of Kel as an infallible hero, but his behavior throughout the Mistborn series reveals he operates in some interesting moral grey areas. His hatred for the nobles of Scadrial manifested more than once in a bloodthirsty streak. He had no scruples about deceiving skaa to set him up as a religious figure, a notion he appears to repeat again with the Southern Scadrians stepping into the role of The Sovereign. He literally punched Preservation in the face without qualms. Kelsier has ultimately been a hero figure so far, but the Cosmere is full of morally complex characters (e.g. Raboniel, Leshwe, Marsh, Shallan, Jasnah, etc.). If I remember correctly, I think even Vin considers that Kelsier had a dark side. It's also telling that he couldn't hold the shard of Preservation long, implying he just had too much Ruin in him. In the end, Kel seems a "the ends justify the means" sort, and even more so, he's a gambler which lines up with much of the Ghostbloods complex moves.
   
• We have a WoB confirming that Kelsier could lead the Ghostbloods and that his mentality lines up with theirs. This was a rather masterful way of avoiding giving a RAFO on the topic, by the way.
   
• We have strong evidence to suggest that Thaidakar is a title, like Mraize. As others in the thread have indicated, this implies the Ghostbloods may have existed previously under different leadership. The aforementioned WoB also hints at this--Kelsier wouldn't need to found this group to end up in charge of it.
   
• The Ghostbloods have a strong interest in finding ways to transport investiture across worlds. This would both interest Kelsier personally (as it could provide a way for him off Scadrial or perhaps to keep his cognitive shadow from decaying), and it lines up business-wise with Kelsier's crew leader mentality. We also have a WoB that the Ghostbloods consider the methods they are exploring both the most-sustainable and least-ethically-dubious, which is interesting. Kel is a man with good business sense, and he had an interesting way of manipulating the criminal underworld on Scadrial. It seems plausible he is doing the same thing with the Ghostbloods, directing bad people towards means that ultimately serve greater goals.
   
• This is one is a bit meta, but Brandon is a master of delivering on foreshadowing. As many have pointed out, you don't put this much work into setting up a red herring unless there will be a satisfying payoff. It feels like Brandon has been uniquely quiet about Kelsier as he might relate to the larger Cosmere--he's put off Wax and Wayne 4 for several years, been mum about doing a second Secret History, and has answered questions about Kelsier in a way to keep fans enticed but not indicate too many strong connections to the Stormlight Archives. Unless this is leading to a left-field switch (like Thaidakar being Spook or Marsh or even Mare, which is much more far-fetched), this whole thing screams that we are getting payoff after years of foreshadowing. Rhythm of War was, in many ways, a non-stop Brandon-avalanche of payoffs for fan theories relating to the Cosmere as a whole (I screamed so many times during the last chapters lol). It would take so many storytelling acrobatics at this point for Thaidakar to not be Kelsier that it would start to strain disbelief. Is it possible? Sure, but it's pretty unlikely given the evidence and the writer.

This has been quite the fun one to dive into! 

 

You missed a few: Brandon said that we’ve seen the lengths to which Thaidakar will go in other books.

A meta one: Brandon specifically mentioned Thaidakar when asking that we not use character’s real names, strongly implying that he expected many of to know Thaidakar’s.

A linguistic one: the Honorific Epithet convention is one we’ve only seen on Scadrial. Other world use either the Honorific OR the epithet. Example: Lord Mistborn, Lord Survivor, Lord Ruler, etc. On Roshar, for example, Dalinar is referred to as EITHER the Blackthorn OR Highprince, but never both together. Thaidakar is often called Master Thaidakar, a Scadrian convention.

There’s also the fact that some Ghostbloods seem to revere Thaidakar as an almost religious figure and, well, if it ain’t broke don’t fix it, right?

The Hoid thing is an easy fix though; Hoid may have been referring to either Thaidakar’s influence or his ‘avatar’, whatever that is.

[StanLemon]

5 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

A linguistic one: the Honorific Epithet convention is one we’ve only seen on Scadrial. Other world use either the Honorific OR the epithet. Example: Lord Mistborn, Lord Survivor, Lord Ruler, etc. On Roshar, for example, Dalinar is referred to as EITHER the Blackthorn OR Highprince, but never both together. Thaidakar is often called Master Thaidakar, a Scadrian convention.

Good catch

[Kingsdaughter613]

17 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Good catch

Thanks!

[Could Be Fire]

 

On 12/30/2020 at 3:07 PM, Jellomancer said:

We know that Hoid has slapped Thaidakar around before. While its possible Hoid has been able to do this to someone else besides Kelsier,

Supporting this, the text points to Kel being the only person Hoid has/can slap around. We know that he "cannot physically harm people" and Brandon says that "If you re-read [were Hoid attacks Kelsier], Hoid himself is shocked he's able to do what he does there." (WOB). It takes a lot to shock Hoid (Shallan hugs non-withstanding), so this is clearly something very unexpected that hasn't happened before.

I think this is the most specific clue. It's been made clear that Hoid can't physically harm people (reinforced in the OB epilogue). Kel is the only one we've seen him "slap around" in text and is literally the crux of their first meeting. Hints like Lord of Scars could possibly point other in-text concepts (like Taln's scar constellation as pointed out) but this has no other basis in canon to point to any other character or concept.  

[Jellomancer]

On 12/30/2020 at 8:43 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

You missed a few: Brandon said that we’ve seen the lengths to which Thaidakar will go in other books.

A meta one: Brandon specifically mentioned Thaidakar when asking that we not use character’s real names, strongly implying that he expected many of to know Thaidakar’s.

A linguistic one: the Honorific Epithet convention is one we’ve only seen on Scadrial. Other world use either the Honorific OR the epithet. Example: Lord Mistborn, Lord Survivor, Lord Ruler, etc. On Roshar, for example, Dalinar is referred to as EITHER the Blackthorn OR Highprince, but never both together. Thaidakar is often called Master Thaidakar, a Scadrian convention.

There’s also the fact that some Ghostbloods seem to revere Thaidakar as an almost religious figure and, well, if it ain’t broke don’t fix it, right?

The Hoid thing is an easy fix though; Hoid may have been referring to either Thaidakar’s influence or his ‘avatar’, whatever that is.

Excellent observations. I agree that catch about the languages is really good! 

Brandon also just released this interesting answer which confirms the "Kel-is-fully-capable-of-villainous-shenanigans" point:

Javier

Which of your characters do you feel is the most misunderstood by fans?

Brandon Sanderson

If I'm doing my job, people won't misunderstand characters.

The one I usually answer on this question is Kelsier, who... Kelsier is definitely a heroic figure. He did a lot of right things. But Kelsier is much closer to being a villain than people see, because he was in the best place for him possible, which is being capable of burning something down. He is just really good at tearing stuff down, and he is a great agent of chaos in that regard, and great at coming up with masterful ways to mess up what other people are doing to get what he wants. And what he wanted in that story happened to align very well with the needs and interests of the general population, and he genuinely wants to do good and right by them. It's not like he's some antihero who is accidentally doing the right things. But he is arrogant; he is very, very driven; and he is very, very dangerous; which are a combination that could have led to disaster in other circumstances.

YouTube Livestream 24 (Dec. 31, 2020)

 

 

[Kingsdaughter613]

6 hours ago, Jellomancer said:

Excellent observations. I agree that catch about the languages is really good! 

Brandon also just released this interesting answer which confirms the "Kel-is-fully-capable-of-villainous-shenanigans" point:

Javier

Which of your characters do you feel is the most misunderstood by fans?

Brandon Sanderson

If I'm doing my job, people won't misunderstand characters.

The one I usually answer on this question is Kelsier, who... Kelsier is definitely a heroic figure. He did a lot of right things. But Kelsier is much closer to being a villain than people see, because he was in the best place for him possible, which is being capable of burning something down. He is just really good at tearing stuff down, and he is a great agent of chaos in that regard, and great at coming up with masterful ways to mess up what other people are doing to get what he wants. And what he wanted in that story happened to align very well with the needs and interests of the general population, and he genuinely wants to do good and right by them. It's not like he's some antihero who is accidentally doing the right things. But he is arrogant; he is very, very driven; and he is very, very dangerous; which are a combination that could have led to disaster in other circumstances.

YouTube Livestream 24 (Dec. 31, 2020)

 

 

What’s interesting about this answer is that it also clarifies at least one question: Kelsier really did want to help the Skaa as part of his motivations.

I adore Kelsier. Not because he’s a hero or a protagonist. But because he’s a trickster. I love tricksters. I keep comparing Kell to Silk (Belgariad, mostly heroic) and David Xanatos (Gargoyles, mostly villainous) for a reason. He fits perfectly into the same archetype they do.

Anti-authoritarian to a dangerous degree. Somewhat sociopathic. Always needing to out smart the next guy. Acquires massive resources, but doesn’t actually care about it beyond ‘keeping score.’ Lives for the con and the challenge. Is inherently selfish by nature.

And yet: is fiercely loyal to those he considers ‘his.’ (And that can be fairly extensive.) Has a personal code that he sticks to. Has lines he won’t cross. Genuinely does want to better things - for himself and others - but doesn’t care much for the moralities of the method used. Capable of genuine kindness and compassion, though it isn’t always evident if you don’t know him.

That type of character fascinates me, because good or evil really depends on one’s perspective. Most of Brandon’s major protagonists would be heroes no matter where you put them. Kelsier - and, possibly, Jasnah - are exceptions.

Kelsier is, like most tricksters, an almost perfect chaotic neutral. And that is such a fun type of character to play with.

[arelic]

Has anyone considering that Thaidakar could be Gevin from White Sand? I’ll definitely admit that the new evidence in ROW leans more and more toward Kelsier. Pardon the lack of reference, but I believe there is a mention that Mraize’s scars are meant to resemble his master’s. Kelsier doesn’t have any facial scars to my knowledge while Gevin definitely does. My mind immediately went to Gevin with the first mention of Mraize (though the revelation making him Thaylen definitely means Mraize is not Gevin). 

[Kingsdaughter613]

1 hour ago, arelic said:

Has anyone considering that Thaidakar could be Gevin from White Sand? I’ll definitely admit that the new evidence in ROW leans more and more toward Kelsier. Pardon the lack of reference, but I believe there is a mention that Mraize’s scars are meant to resemble his master’s. Kelsier doesn’t have any facial scars to my knowledge while Gevin definitely does. My mind immediately went to Gevin with the first mention of Mraize (though the revelation making him Thaylen definitely means Mraize is not Gevin). 

There was no mention of such in the book.

Thaidakar is:

A Cognitive Shadow

The Lord of Scars; ie. known for his scars

Someone Hoid has slapped around

Someone we have seen go to great lengths to achieve his goals in another series.

Gavin is not known as a Cognitive Shadow; Kelsier is.

Gevin does have extensive scarring, as does Kelsier. However Kelsier is the one Hoid has addressed by those scars before (‘Scarred One.’) Also, Kelsier’s scars are used as his primary form of identification; in White Sand Gevin is identified more by his status and his bandages.

Hoid has not been able to hurt anyone since the Shattering, with the exception of Kelsier. He has never been seen beating up Gevin.

We have seen the lengths Kelsier will go to to fulfill his goals in another series. White Sand isn’t a series yet (only book one has been transcribed) and we see Gevin give up on his goals, not go to great lengths to achieve them.

There is no reason to think Thaidakar is Gevin, as Gevin does not fit most of the known information.
 

[danex]

I don’t know why people are still ‘theorizing’ about this. When I read that in the book, I didn’t read it as a ‘hey I see a connection here’ I read it as a blatant ‘THIS IS A REVEAL’. The way that scene is written, it feels like a reveal. He isn’t dropping hints, he is blatantly telling us. 

I don’t think Brandon intended for it to be vague, I think that he intended anyone who knows about the cosmere to immediately realize who it is. It isn’t theory fodder, it’s a reveal. I think the only thing that kept him from directly naming Kelsier is that he didn’t want to make people feel like they have to read Mistborn now.

Edited January 5, 2021 by Dannex

[Kingsdaughter613]

5 hours ago, Dannex said:

I don’t know why people are still ‘theorizing’ about this. When I read that in the book, I didn’t read it as a ‘hey I see a connection here’ I read it as a blatant ‘THIS IS A REVEAL’. The way that scene is written, it feels like a reveal. He isn’t dropping hints, he is blatantly telling us. 

I don’t think Brandon intended for it to be vague, I think that he intended anyone who knows about the cosmere to immediately realize who it is. It isn’t theory fodder, it’s a reveal. I think the only thing that kept him from directly naming Kelsier is that he didn’t want to make people feel like they have to read Mistborn now.

I think it was to avoid spoiling things for people who read Mistborn after RoW. Can you imagine how confusing Kell’s death would be in that scenario?

[Frustration]

On 1/5/2021 at 5:27 AM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I think it was to avoid spoiling things for people who read Mistborn after RoW. Can you imagine how confusing Kell’s death would be in that scenario?

I want to do this to someone just to see their reaction now.

[Kingsdaughter613]

15 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I want to do this to someone just to see their reaction now.

Someone on Reddit accidentally found out. I assured them the series wasn’t ruined but that the end of book one might be a little confusing...

[Dakaladin]

What if the bigger reveal is that the Ghostbloods aren't actually evil...

[Cheyenne Sedai]

I'm kind of surprised this is a debate here. I hadn't considered some of the points against Kelsier being Thaidakar though. You gave me a lot to think about.

[Kingsdaughter613]

35 minutes ago, Cheyenne Sedai said:

I'm kind of surprised this is a debate here. I hadn't considered some of the points against Kelsier being Thaidakar though. You gave me a lot to think about.

Not very much - we know Thaidakar has been in other books and that we’ve seen the lengths to which he’s willing to go in those. And we also know that he’s from another story where he has a different name. That eliminates Elantris and Warbreaker, which are standalones and whose crossover characters a: don’t fit the other descriptions and b: mainly cross with SA.

Mistborn has two series and a novella, making it the only place we can be talking about. He’s a character we’ve seen, one willing to go to great lengths, who has appeared in at least two books/novellas where we’ve seen him do that. Even before you add in anything else, you’ll find you’re down to exactly one person...

Just to add to all this: Someone on Reddit noticed that in WoR the chapters leading up to meeting the Ghostbloods are entitled:

Scars

Mere Vapors

Ghostbloods

And, on the off chance anyone’s forgotten, just a reminder that Scadrial’s Cognitive is referred to as the Expanse of Vapors...

[Cheyenne Sedai]

9 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Not very much - we know Thaidakar has been in other books and that we’ve seen the lengths to which he’s willing to go in those. And we also know that he’s from another story where he has a different name. That eliminates Elantris and Warbreaker, which are standalones and whose crossover characters a: don’t fit the other descriptions and b: mainly cross with SA.

Mistborn has two series and a novella, making it the only place we can be talking about. He’s a character we’ve seen, one willing to go to great lengths, who has appeared in at least two books/novellas where we’ve seen him do that. Even before you add in anything else, you’ll find you’re down to exactly one person...

Just to add to all this: Someone on Reddit noticed that in WoR the chapters leading up to meeting the Ghostbloods are entitled:

Scars

Mere Vapors

Ghostbloods

And, on the off chance anyone’s forgotten, just a reminder that Scadrial’s Cognitive is referred to as the Expanse of Vapors...

I still do think he is Thaidakar, the evidence is just too much for me to believe otherwise, but it is interesting to me that people still do have evidence to think otherwise. And I hadn't noticed the chapter titles. That's just more of Brandon's amazing subtle foreshadowing.

[Kingsdaughter613]

56 minutes ago, Cheyenne Sedai said:

I still do think he is Thaidakar, the evidence is just too much for me to believe otherwise, but it is interesting to me that people still do have evidence to think otherwise. And I hadn't noticed the chapter titles. That's just more of Brandon's amazing subtle foreshadowing.

Neither did I; someone on Reddit did during a reread.

My biggest issue with the current arguments is that they’re directly contradicting what Brandon said, once you break things down. And most of those anti arguments are not arguing that Brandon was lying or misspoke when he said those two things, which I feel any valid argument against needs to be predicated upon.

You need to be able to show that either one of two statements is false, or explain how it could reference another character. And most of the arguments aren’t doing that.

[Cheyenne Sedai]

On 1/6/2021 at 6:37 PM, Frustration said:

I want to do this to someone just to see their reaction now.

I know someone who has read RoW, and is only reading Mistborn for the first time. One of my cohosts on the Worldhoppers Podcast. I'm looking forward to getting to that reveal eventually, and being able to tell her, but of course I won't say anything until after Secret History. 

 

[Kingsdaughter613]

1 hour ago, Cheyenne Sedai said:

I know someone who has read RoW, and is only reading Mistborn for the first time. One of my cohosts on the Worldhoppers Podcast. I'm looking forward to getting to that reveal eventually, and being able to tell her, but of course I won't say anything until after Secret History. 

 

There are people who did put it together (partly because they don’t know the ending of TFE). Several others managed to put it together after just reading Era 1, without any other Mistborn knowledge. I ran into one person demanding to know how Kelsier was alive to be Thaidakar when he had clearly died in TFE, after putting it together from the description. We suggested reading SH.

Saze was the much bigger problem though. His speech patterns are distinctive and RoW doesn’t break things up to obscure the speaker in the same way as HoA. RoW wants us to recognize the speaker; the problem is some people are recognizing it backwards. The audiobook is even worse; Whelan keeps Sazed’s voice consistent which means people listening to Mistborn immediately after RoW are almost certain to get spoiled. 

I really think, in hindsight, the book should have gotten a warning that it could spoil some major and minor Mistborn plot elements. Because it seems quite a few readers are being spoiled and they should be aware of the risk. At the very least the audiobook should get a warning, as it can be easier to recognize sounds. 

I suspect the problem wasn’t recognized earlier because A: the beta readers already knew the Mistborn stuff, so didn’t consider the spoiler potential and B: at least for Thaidakar, there is a direct correlation between how recently you read TFE and recognizing the reference. So if you read Era 1 just before RoW or read it right after, there is a fairly high chance that you’ll recognize the description. But that couldn’t have been known before the book was released.

[Cheyenne Sedai]

Definitely agree there. You recognize Sazed's voice in the epigraphs (narrative voice, I haven't listened to the audiobook), but I do think that Kelsier/Thaidakar is harder to recognize because it happens so close after the Vargodium reveal, and you can go past it. Then again, before the reread I'm just finishing of TFE, it had been a while since I'd read it, and it had only been once.

[AquaRegia]

I generally follow the rule (and recommend to others) that when approaching a new author, read the books in the order in which they were written.  Brandon is making that into quite a puzzle, though, isn't he?  And it's only going to get worse... who's going to want to stop in the middle of one awesome series to start another series?

[Cheyenne Sedai]

Definitely. Personally, though that wasn't my order because it was hard to get the books here, I really like Drew's (from Inking Out Loud) reading order. It's meant to highlight these connections in an order that won't do what you're talking about. That's what my next reread will be.

 

[Kingsdaughter613]

44 minutes ago, Cheyenne Sedai said:

Definitely agree there. You recognize Sazed's voice in the epigraphs (narrative voice, I haven't listened to the audiobook), but I do think that Kelsier/Thaidakar is harder to recognize because it happens so close after the Vargodium reveal, and you can go past it. Then again, before the reread I'm just finishing of TFE, it had been a while since I'd read it, and it had only been once.

There’s definitely a correlation between the two. I was rereading TFE when I read RoW. Admittedly, I’d wondered since WoR, so I was on the lookout anyway.

But the Saze thing is a much bigger problem. I did ping Brandon on reddit after I ran into another person who figured out one of the two and suggested that future printings include a spoiler warning for Mistborn. At least Dragonsteel will know about the issue.