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Thaidakar's Identity


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so, first of all, Kelsier was actually a very brutal person towards people who abuse their power, we saw that over and over again in mistborn, and I doubt that has changed much. SA has largely been about people who have power, many of whom have severely abused said power, and I imagine people like Jasnah Kholin are no exception.

Kelsier also had large and grand plans, but he was also good at working with teams to accomplish bite sized goals. I imagine one of the things Kel needs is resources, investiture particularly, which seems to be the goal of the GB on Roshar, likely not as a tool to for enrichment, but as a means of acquiring a resource for use in some grander plan. One piece of a much larger thing.

Kelsier also, like the Fused, would likely have an identity that slowly consumes him - in his case, his identity as the Survivor. 

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4 hours ago, Bragtown said:

so, first of all, Kelsier was actually a very brutal person towards people who abuse their power, we saw that over and over again in mistborn, and I doubt that has changed much. SA has largely been about people who have power, many of whom have severely abused said power, and I imagine people like Jasnah Kholin are no exception.

Kelsier also had large and grand plans, but he was also good at working with teams to accomplish bite sized goals. I imagine one of the things Kel needs is resources, investiture particularly, which seems to be the goal of the GB on Roshar, likely not as a tool to for enrichment, but as a means of acquiring a resource for use in some grander plan. One piece of a much larger thing.

Kelsier also, like the Fused, would likely have an identity that slowly consumes him - in his case, his identity as the Survivor. 

Kell actually has two - and I suspect that’s his real problem right now.

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Pay close attention to the Epilogue.  Brandon talks about subversion and misdirection specifically as it relates to storytelling. He already kind of did that with Taravagian/Odium. I think the Kelsier hints are more misdirection.  
 

I also think Kelsier could be a threat off world to the Ghostbloods and that Mraize could be/is trying to potentially set the organization’s enemies (Shallan and Kelsier) at odds with each other for the mutual benefit of the GB. 
 

if the GB are operating on Scadrial, then it is as likely that Kelsier could be in opposition to them as leading them.  

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36 minutes ago, Destrus said:

Pay close attention to the Epilogue.  Brandon talks about subversion and misdirection specifically as it relates to storytelling. He already kind of did that with Taravagian/Odium. I think the Kelsier hints are more misdirection.  
 

I also think Kelsier could be a threat off world to the Ghostbloods and that Mraize could be/is trying to potentially set the organization’s enemies (Shallan and Kelsier) at odds with each other for the mutual benefit of the GB. 
 

if the GB are operating on Scadrial, then it is as likely that Kelsier could be in opposition to them as leading them.  

The hits all came from Hoid, not Mraize. And they mean far more to us than to Shallan.

And Brandon wouldn’t do that to us. Lord of Scars is blatant enough to spoil people who have only read Era 1; he isn’t going to that for a cheap trick. He’d have been more subtle and said something only someone who had already read both Eras would know - like calling Thaidakar ‘Spike Eye’.

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I think all we can say for certain is we’re supposed to think of Kelsier from the clues. We shouldn’t be considering some other unknown character. But Brandon clearly leaves himself with plenty of creative wiggle room to decide if it really is Kelsier or some Kelsier-adjacent character or any other narrative twist involving Kelsier. But it involves Kelsier—which I think is a pretty cool thing no matter what and will be super exciting to see resolved.

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If Hoid's use of the plural "planets" from his conversation with Jasnah is correct, i think we have to select from one of three possible conclusions: 

1) Hoid views the Cognitive Realm as a "planet", and so the two "planets" where Hoid saw Kelsier are Scadrial and Scadrial's Cognitive Realm. Hoid is highly knowledgeable about Realmatics, and his audience (Jasnah) is very knowledgeable about Realmatics as well. That he would conflate the terms "realm" and "planet" strains credulity. 

2) Thaidakar is not Kelsier, since the only "planet" where Hoid has seen him is Scadrial. Given the numerous references of Thaidakar which scream Kelsier, this seems to also strain credulity. 

3) Kelsier has already resolved his issue of Connection to Scadrial, and so now just wants a pet Herald to study how to resolve the long-term sanity issue. The southern continent Scadrian's applications of medallions show there's already a very firm grasp of Connection, so this conclusion feels most likely. Thaidakar is Kelsier, and Kelsier has world hopped at least once (and Hoid saw him there).

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1 hour ago, Czernobog said:

If Hoid's use of the plural "planets" from his conversation with Jasnah is correct, i think we have to select from one of three possible conclusions: 

1) Hoid views the Cognitive Realm as a "planet", and so the two "planets" where Hoid saw Kelsier are Scadrial and Scadrial's Cognitive Realm. Hoid is highly knowledgeable about Realmatics, and his audience (Jasnah) is very knowledgeable about Realmatics as well. That he would conflate the terms "realm" and "planet" strains credulity. 

2) Thaidakar is not Kelsier, since the only "planet" where Hoid has seen him is Scadrial. Given the numerous references of Thaidakar which scream Kelsier, this seems to also strain credulity. 

3) Kelsier has already resolved his issue of Connection to Scadrial, and so now just wants a pet Herald to study how to resolve the long-term sanity issue. The southern continent Scadrian's applications of medallions show there's already a very firm grasp of Connection, so this conclusion feels most likely. Thaidakar is Kelsier, and Kelsier has world hopped at least once (and Hoid saw him there).

Option 4) Hoid met Kell's ‘avatar’ and considers that meeting him.

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16 minutes ago, Czernobog said:

Fair point. Though if so, I would think the avatar/Hoid interaction would have to have taken place somewhere other than Scadrial or Roshar, for the "other planets" to still hold. 

I’d assume it did. WoB is that Kell hasn’t worldhopped yet, which is why I doubt Hoid met Kell himself. An avatar Kell was controlling would explain the disparity.

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A few things have come to me while reading through this thread which to me not only confirm that Kell is definitely Thaidakar but also that the Ghostbloods motivations may not be what we think. I don't think Kell was every necessarily a "good" guy in the Mistborn series, at least not in the way that Vin and Sazed were, which is clearly evidenced by how he is far more connected to ruin than he is preservation. Although this argument is far from concise as it implies that ruin is evil while preservation is good which is certainly not true given that the creation of life itself on Scadrial would have been impossible without ruin. It nonetheless does forward the idea, along with his rather blase attitude toward killing, that Kell is definitely not strictly a good guy.  Coupling this with the deterioration of mind that we have come to learn accompanies the long life of a type 2 invested entity, as Vasher would call Kell, it makes perfect sense that he would at the very least turn a blind eye to some innocents dying if it meant furthering the central goal of the ghostbloods. Particularly if the goal of the ghostbloods is something that he sees as able to facilitate the survival of the cosmere as a whole which, and this is some straight up speculation, maybe he has grown to perceive as his ultimately goal and after he accomplishes it he will finally feel able to enter the beyond to return to Mare.

Also talking about the more immediate motivations for the Ghostbloods I think that the idea of Kell wanting to study the heralds as a means of learning how to get off of Scadrail is a red herring. If Keliser is already able to have this significant of an influence on other worlds, even if his own cognitive shadow can not travel far from the scadrian system without experiencing the pulling that we saw in the secret histories. It doesn't make much sense that he would be willing to go to the lengths the Ghostbloods are going to for something which seems like it would just be a boon for himself, that doesn't feel in character for him. The fact that this is Kalak's central motivation feels like it is partially there to get us thinking that this is what Kell wants to study the heralds to learn. When in fact he wants to somehow learn how to stave off the madness so that he will be able to continue to guide the cosmere towards a state of indefinite survive-ability. Also a thought that I just had after writing this is that Kelsier might be aiming for either the shattering of all the shards or their coalition back into Adonalsium , possibly under Sazed, because both of these seem like they would result in a more stable cosmere especially after Kel saw firsthand the horrors that can arise from the conflict between two shards. Given the seeming willingness to work together that Harmony shows in his correspondence with Hoid and Kelsier's hatred of the man I think the former is more likely. Anyway this is my first post on this forum and wow I didn't think it would be this long I am so exited to see where Brandon goes with Kelsier and the Ghostbloods in the larger cosmere , as likely my guesses are completely wrong lol, and damn RoW was such a wild ride, RIP Rayse, I am so freaking excited for the finale of the first half of Stormlight. 

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On 11/23/2020 at 6:25 AM, Chalke219 said:

I also got the impression that the epilogue with Wit talking about the need to sometimes lie to your audience for the story to work was analogous to this exact reveal, he's been saying previously not to expect an 'avengers style team up' but it certainly seems to be heading that way now, and I'm all for it

This makes sense to me.  A consistent characteristic of Brandon's writing is that things move faster, with reveals coming sooner and on a much larger scale, than anyone was expecting.  He sets things up so you think all three Mistborn books will be about defeating TLR, or that Rayse is the big bad of Stormlight, but nope!

It would be consistent for him to take the same approach with broader Cosmere crossovers.

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On 11/27/2020 at 11:52 AM, Destrus said:

Seriously though, wouldn’t Kelsier being Thaidakar be a little bit of a heel turn?  I don’t feel like the Ghostbloods are in any way “good guys”.   I’m just struggling with seeing Kelsier as a villain in the greater Cosmere. 

This WoB mentions that Kelsier has a general personality and attitude that could make him the villain in other situations than the one he found himself in. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31-arcanum-unbounded-release-party/#e9702  

Look at Kelsier's character. He's murder-happy, willing and eager to a point to kill any noble in his way (only sparing Elend really due to Vin). You put Kelsier in an orderly society thats actually working or where nobles are actually trying to help and I'm not sure he stops doing what he's doing. 

Mistborn Era 2 Spoilers

Spoiler

I actually think that Miles in Alloy of Law was a very Kelsier like character. The Government isn't perfect but you get a different perspective of a man violently trying to destroy the Government due to perceived slights against the poor. 

 

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So, while I was reading through this, I'm trying to figure what Kelsier's end game would be, if he were Thaidakar.  

And the question I'm asking myself is "would a cognitive shadow be able to touch a Shard and Ascend?  ie. Could a Cognitive Shadow become a Vessel?"

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6 minutes ago, Destrus said:

So, while I was reading through this, I'm trying to figure what Kelsier's end game would be, if he were Thaidakar.  

And the question I'm asking myself is "would a cognitive shadow be able to touch a Shard and Ascend?  ie. Could a Cognitive Shadow become a Vessel?"

Have you read "secret history"?

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On 11/18/2020 at 0:19 AM, physicskid said:

okay

This theory terrifies me, because Shallan is so totally not ready to deal with Kelsier.

She can't deal with a lot.

also this would probably have been a bigger reveal if someone *cough* @Kingsdaughter613 *cough* hadn't been human and made a mistake, not being perfect is verry inconsiderate of you.:D

All in all this doesn't sit well for me, not in the slightest.

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