Thaidakar's Identity

[+Oltux72]

8 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

So while I do agree with you, I do think Kelsier can change. He can be broken like the heralds, or can just go through a drastic change as he realizes the world is not as he thought. I also think he could be like Taravangian. Kill the few to save the many.

He is. Think of what he did to those on that plantation.

8 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

Now I have my own issues with the idea. I see all the similarities, but Kelsier is NOT a leader of an organization type.

It is not as if he had a choice.

Spoiler

After he learned from Khrissalla that he was underinformed it was clear that his network would have to span multiple worlds.

 

8 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

He gathers a small group of friends or does amazing things alone, then gathers a group of followers to worship him. We saw this in both era 1 and 2, and I have a feeling that will not change as his morals change. 

His morals don't have to change. Kelsier would wade through lakes of blood if it took that to defend Scadrial. It would also not hurt if his organisation were economically profitable. But then he would act consistently. First and foremost he would consider Odium a threat. And he would agree with Hoid. He'd watch Roshar burn. And his organisation would not hunt Jasnah or do deals with Odium's forces.

 

10 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Also, as a writer, that’s EXACTLY the kind of misdirect I’d do. Have a character make a (wrong) assumption, but have the other characters react to that assumption in a way that seemingly confirms it. This way I can surprise them later.

OK, that raises a point. That what makes us think that Kelsier is confirmed is coming from Hoid, isn't it?
So I have to ask. How trustworthy is Hoid? Could Hoid be framing Kelsier? He surely does not like him. And he would not cry if Adolin or Shallan finished what Rashek had begun. Or one more step of indirection, is somebody playing Hoid?

[Kingsdaughter613]

Just now, Oltux72 said:

He is. Think of what he did to those on that plantation.

It is not as if he had a choice.

  Hide contents

After he learned from Khrissalla that he was underinformed it was clear that his network would have to span multiple worlds.

 

His morals don't have to change. Kelsier would wade through lakes of blood if it took that to defend Scadrial. It would also not hurt if his organisation were economically profitable. But then he would act consistently. First and foremost he would consider Odium a threat. And he would agree with Hoid. He'd watch Roshar burn. And his organisation would not hunt Jasnah or do deals with Odium's forces.

 

OK, that raises a point. That what makes us think that Kelsier is confirmed is coming from Hoid, isn't it?
So I have to ask. How trustworthy is Hoid? Could Hoid be framing Kelsier? He surely does not like him. And he would not cry if Adolin or Shallan finished what Rashek had begun. Or one more step of indirection, is somebody playing Hoid?

So, I wrote a whole thing about building expectations and how there is no point in building an expectation just for the sake of knocking it down. What you’re suggesting, that Hoid is framing Kell, is the only plausible reason for Brandon to do it. Although it still doesn’t make much sense for it to happen in a SA book. The characters have no idea of the significance of that line. Though Felt will...

What I was saying happened earlier in the conversation. Mraize threatens Shallan with his master and his master’s master. Shallan assumes the latter is Thaidakar and Mraize immediately reacts to the name. On a casual read we’re supposed to assume that she’s right.

HOWEVER.

Two or three sentences later, Mraize tells Shallan that Thaidakar can’t be bothered to come personally to Roshar. This is (possibly) a hint to the reader that the above is wrong - and it’s in the same conversation. Misdirect and clue. Now, some people will catch it. Some won’t. On reread it becomes clear.

But the most important thing is that the character is fooled. The character is not tricking the reader; the character is tricked and the reader may also be (though the truth is hidden in the conversation). It’s not a betrayal.

Hoid’s Lord of Scars has meaning for only one group of people: us. It’s a message to us about Thaidakar’s identity. If that message is wrong then WE are the ones who have been tricked, not the characters. And that’s a betrayal.

 

The GBs went after Jasnah because she was going after them, possibly after being encouraged by Wit (who does not like Kell). Yes, Kell would definitely chase her down for killing his people.

 

I wonder if Kell actually considers Cultivation the threat. If he realized the power and vessel of Odium were fighting - which he might have, as he has had experience with that - he may have been more concerned with Roshar’s Second Shard.

C was definitely more dangerous than Rayse, and I think Kell, who isn’t blinded by former associations like Hoid or the native Rosharan groups, may have realized that. Rayse he figures he can trick easily. Cultivation, on the other hand...

I also have a theory that Kell tried to keep as much knowledge as possible of any major potential threats to Scadrial from his brief Ascension. And occasionally uses Atium+Duralumin to peek into the Spiritual Realm. 

Also: as someone who likes to run a long con, Kell may have recognized that Cultivation was planning one. If the GBs were actually trying to interfere with HER plans, well, that would put a very different twist on matters.

[+Oltux72]

24 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

So, I wrote a whole thing about building expectations and how there is no point in building an expectation just for the sake of knocking it down. What you’re suggesting, that Hoid is framing Kell, is the only plausible reason for Brandon to do it. Although it still doesn’t make much sense for it to happen in a SA book. The characters have no idea of the significance of that line.

Now.

 

(yes, I always wanted to do the laconic thing)

 

24 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Though Felt will...

That is the other possibility. No, seriously, Hoid is perfectly capable of playing a long game. Mentionig this now makes a lot of sense. Shallan and Adolin will remember this conversation. And they will rather sooner than later acquire a short history of Scadrial and Nalthis in book form.

Giving this hint in a way that makes it look like Wit dropped that moniker to get his message through is a rather clever ploy. Even if it is wrong Mraize would hardly admit that. He likely knows Wit is in a category of his own.

24 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

What I was saying happened earlier in the conversation. Mraize threatens Shallan with his master and his master’s master. Shallan assumes the latter is Thaidakar and Mraize immediately reacts to the name. On a casual read we’re supposed to assume that she’s right.

Yes.

24 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

HOWEVER.

Two or three sentences later, Mraize tells Shallan that Thaidakar can’t be bothered to come personally to Roshar. This is (possibly) a hint to the reader that the above is wrong - and it’s in the same conversation. Misdirect and clue. Now, some people will catch it. Some won’t. On reread it becomes clear.

Why? Thaidakar may be dangerous due to the people he can send.

24 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Hoid’s Lord of Scars has meaning for only one group of people: us. It’s a message to us about Thaidakar’s identity. If that message is wrong then WE are the ones who have been tricked, not the characters. And that’s a betrayal.

No, I am sorry, Wit may also be betraying Shallan.

24 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The GBs went after Jasnah because she was going after them, possibly after being encouraged by Wit (who does not like Kell). Yes, Kell would definitely chase her down for killing his people.

True

24 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Also: as someone who likes to run a long con, Kell may have recognized that Cultivation was planning one. If the GBs were actually trying to interfere with HER plans, well, that would put a very different twist on matters.

Interesting

[Naerin]

There are some good counterpoints for Thaidakar being Kelsier in this thread, but personally I think they can be addressed. The main arguments seem to be 1) that the Ghostbloods, as an organization, seem too...well, evil, to be run by Kelsier, and 2) that the age of either Thaidakar or the organization itself doesn't match up with Kelsier's calculated age by this point. 

I think both points can be resolved with the help of a word of brandon from 2015. 

ccstat: "If Kelsier (when Vin knew him) were to join one of the Rosharan secret societies, which one would he choose?"

Brandon: "He would become part of the Ghostbloods, most likely, and would be in charge of them within a year."

So we already have confirmation that Kelsier is aligned ideologically with the Ghostbloods. Remember that Kelsier was actually pretty ruthless, enjoyed power, and even had a bit of a cruel streak. And that was before he started using hemalurgy to turn him into something akin to the Heralds. The Ghostbloods value power and loyalty. That certainly sounds very Survivor-esque, especially if we consider the possibility that the Ghostbloods have some larger purpose. Perhaps surviving against some external threat (like the war Odium hinted at), which would make their apparent ruthlessness a matter of necessity from their perspective. 

Also, other discrepancies are resolved if we assume that Thaidakar is a title that Kelsier acquired. Just because he's the leader of the Ghostbloods doesn't mean he has to be the founder. Ialai's notebook thought that Thaidakar sounded like a title, similar to Mraize. So if Kelsier joined the Ghostbloods and rose to that title (or maybe assassinated and replaced the previous Thaidakar), that could easily solve the apparent age issues, especially if characters like Kalak aren't aware that Thaidakar is a mantle that passes between people (or aren't aware that Kelsier has replaced the previous person). Hoid, being someone more aware of cosmere doings, would likely have more insight that Roshar-bound Heralds. From the above WOB, we also know that someone can join and then get to a point to be in charge of the Ghostbloods, further supporting this idea. 

Overall I think it's pretty definitive that Thaidakar is Kelsier. If it's a red herring it's kind of a mean-spirited one. Because there's no other characters that we've been introduced to that would fit with the hints we've been given (Lord of Scars, a cognitive shadow type entity, who Hoid has slapped around in the past). So if it's a red-herring, it would be the equivalent of saying "Ha, stupid fans! There's no connections here at all! It's actually some other random character you've never seen before." That does not feel like Brandon's style at all. 

Edited November 20, 2020 by Naerin

[spitfireky]

3 minutes ago, Naerin said:

Also, other discrepancies are resolved if we assume that Thaidakar is a title that Kelsier acquired. Just because he's the leader of the Ghostbloods doesn't mean he has to be the founder. Ialai's notebook thought that Thaidakar sounded like a title, similar to Mraize. So if Kelsier joined the Ghostbloods and rose to that title (or maybe assassinated and replaced the previous Thaidakar), that could easily solve the apparent age issues, especially if characters like Kalak aren't aware that Thaidakar is a mantle that passes between people (or aren't aware that Kelsier has replaced the previous person). Hoid, being someone more aware of cosmere doings, would likely have more insight that Roshar-bound Heralds. From the above WOB, we also know that someone can join and then get to a point to be in charge of the Ghostbloods, further supporting this idea. 

That makes sense that Thaidakar is a title, especially when you think about this WoB:

Quote

Geoffray

Is Thaidakar the leader of the Ghostbloods?

Brandon Sanderson

[Thaidakar] is a leader.

Paris signing (Oct. 22, 2016)

 

[ftl]

Hahaha, is that WoB just saying that “Thaidakar means “a leader”! “??

It’s a title. Sneaky AF answer. 

[Leuthie]

I'm against Kelsier being the leader simply because this is supposedly a universe spanning story and a select few characters keep leading things. I get that everyone is interested in Roshar, and asking the Heralds how to deal with being a cognitive shadow is a worthy goal, but wouldn't Nalthis (a place where the resident Shard consistently creates cognitive shadows) be a better place to send huge resources to if you're trying to solve cognitive shadow problems? Isn't Kelsier already planning a coup of Scadrial? I'm still a bit peeved that Brandon brought the hero of his first big epic who died in the first book back from the dead. Now that one guy has multiple huge organizations doing world changing work on (at least) two different worlds? It's just too much.

[Friendshipspren]

On 11/18/2020 at 1:39 PM, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

I don't guys you say it feels like Kelsier and you have logic to back it up, but all I can say is to me it feels like a red herring.

Edit: a small piece of evidence.

Kelsier generally isn't one to share power.

Kelsier did form crews where everyone had great autonomy

[+Czernobog]

On 11/19/2020 at 2:20 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Where does Hoid say planets? I must have missed that.

Chapter 64:

Quote

“I believe it is time,” Wit said, “that I told you about Thaidakar.” “I know of him,” Jasnah said. “Oh, you think you do,” he said. “But I’ve met him, several times. On other planets, Jasnah."

 

[+Oltux72]

On 20.11.2020 at 11:33 PM, Leuthie said:

I'm against Kelsier being the leader simply because this is supposedly a universe spanning story and a select few characters keep leading things. I get that everyone is interested in Roshar, and asking the Heralds how to deal with being a cognitive shadow is a worthy goal,

Right there is an issue. If you just want information, why not simply ask? Kalak wants this problem to be solved.

If you need a guinea pig, do you really use an untested sampling method?

On 20.11.2020 at 11:33 PM, Leuthie said:

but wouldn't Nalthis (a place where the resident Shard consistently creates cognitive shadows) be a better place to send huge resources to if you're trying to solve cognitive shadow problems?

Indeed.

On 20.11.2020 at 11:33 PM, Leuthie said:

Isn't Kelsier already planning a coup of Scadrial?

Then why didn't he just keep ruling in the South?

29 minutes ago, Czernobog said:

Chapter 64:

Exactly. All information implicating Kelsier is coming from Hoid.
We learn that Thaidakar is a Cognitive Shadow via a Seon. Who has been to Sel and can look however he wants?

[Knight of Iron]

*not sure if this has been brought up*
For those saying Kelsier isn't evil enough, it is confirmed that Kelsier is a psychopath with lack of empathy. If his life had gone a little differently, he could have been (and I quote):

"A very, very evil dude."

Link to actual WOB:
 

Spoiler

i_are_pant

1. Which of your protagonist characters do you dislike the most as a person? Taking into account that you know all of their inner secrets and motivations.2. On the flip side. Which of your antagonists do you connect with the most? The Lord Ruler seems an obvious choice as he was misunderstood by everybody for so long. But still, I'm curious.

Brandon Sanderson

• This is a tough one, as while I'm writing, I HAVE to like everyone. However, the most disturbing of them is probably Kelsier. He's a psychopath--meaning the actual, technical term. Lack of empathy, egotism, lack of fear. If his life had gone differently, he could have been a very, very evil dude.

• Elend. I see myself as an idealist like him.

/r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 17, 2013)

And let me also just add the fact that Brandon has also stated that we have seen proto-Ghostbloods somewhere, outside of the Stormlight Archive. Where better than at the end of Secret History?

Spoiler

Questioner (paraphrased)

Where have we seen proto-Ghostbloods?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

RAFO, but you guys are pretty close to figuring that out.

Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

 

Questioner (paraphrased)

Have we seen Ghostbloods in action outside of the Rosharan system?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You have seen proto-Ghostbloods, but not after the their actual initiation.

Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

 

Edited November 22, 2020 by Knight of Iron

[FollowYourMuse]

On 11/19/2020 at 4:55 PM, Bliev said:

I think @Kingsdaughter613 does make an excellent point about the foreshadowing though--if it's not him, will this foreshadowing for the Cosmere-aware fans breed disappointment? That doesn't seem like a typically Brandon thing to do. To lay out clues and then not pursue them. 

And yet BS really like to twist what we think we know and think will happen. 

On 11/20/2020 at 1:28 AM, ALAKA said:

I'm probably leaning towards it being Kelsier on the evidence- it's just an unpleasant change for him and it feels wrong. As has pointed out, it's plausible that there's little oversight in the GBs etc. But to the reader it's a bad impression (good old Kels crew are evil now!) and doesn't feel like anything Brandon would do (though other authors might very well do it, Brandon isn't edgy like that - which I like! Probably makes me unsophisticated or something. .)

 

On 11/20/2020 at 6:00 AM, Pandora's shard said:

Why do I feel like most of you don't understand Kelsier? He is, arguably,  the most driven character of entire entire cosmere. And absurdly talented. And very charismatic. And, dedicated. So, when such people focus on an argument, what happens to people who support the other side? I sometimes get Thanos vibe from Kelsier. Yes, what he wants is gud. But the means that he may employ is certainly not extremely moral. And when such morality meets such drive, charisma, personality and talent, the same character can turn from the best hero to the worst villain so quickly. 

Why, because, whether a character is hero or villain is defined by people who argue. And always, the against u in an argument is villain 

 

So, yes, Kelsier can be a villain in Cosmere depending on the goals that he wants to achieve and the goals that Brandon is showing us to be gud. 

 

Having said all these, I do believe Thaidakar is Kelsier. Now, let's see if Brandon has conned us or not this time.. 

I agree the evidence is there, and the only things that point to the speculation being wrong are the references to Old Thaidakar, and that the actions of the GB not aligning with Kelsier

What we also have plenty of hints and references in RoW on investiture and intent, Kel is the "Survivor" much like the Pursuer or even Shards.  My guess is that we do not know Kel now, that reasons he may now be ok with what ever the GB/ Survivorists do as long as it means his survival, is that like the Pursuer, his own intent is taking over. Kel was never a "good" guy. Add power and being a CS what morality he used from others to control his own sanity, instincts and psychopathy could be gone. 

Adding Quotes: 

Quote

"The Heralds too," Zahel said. "When they died, they left an imprint behind. Power that remembered being them. You see, the power wants to be alive."

"The longer one of us exists, the more like a spren we  become. Consumed by a singular purpose, our minds bound and chained by our Intent. We're spren masquerading as men."


Zahel, Ch 15, RoW

 

Edited November 22, 2020 by FollowYourMuse

[+Bliev]

To add another discussion point, what to think about Mraize’s use of the word “avatar”?

It wasn’t used in WoK at all.

in WoR it was used when Dalinar was looking “for an avatar” for the SF’s voice:

Quote

Dalinar could find no avatar speaking the words. 

In OB, we see it twice, once when Evi refers to the Nightwatcher and once in the letter from Bavadin to Hoid about their new “avatar”.

And finally, the Mraize quote in RoW, but Vyre also says to Odium:

Quote

“Some people say I’ve become your avatar,” Vyre said. “That you act through me, control me.”

Is it just a linguistic choice? Or more than that? We see it most used here in reference to a representative of a god, or a splinter of one. This could be foreshadowing against the Kelsier possibility, or it could be further evidence of Kel’s megalomania. 

Edited November 22, 2020 by Bliev

[StanLemon]

It seems pretty apparent that Thaidakar is Kelsier

This whole debate seems exactly like the ones arguing that Brandon wasn't going to bring the Cosmere to the forefront in this book. Well, he did. It's now more than just little tidbits. It's full on in the readers face that there is a Cosmere, that Investiture is the lifeblood of magic, that there are more gods, that there is more to everything.

Brandon seems to be tying Cosmere threads together in this book and it would be narratively more odd for Thaidakar to not be Kelsier at this point

[Truthless of Shinovar]

I will be absolutely shocked if Thaidakar is not Kelsier. Like, I’m 100% sure.  Not a shadow of a doubt. 

The thing that’s throwing me off is the use of the word “avatar”. It makes me think of Autonomy... Which would make things a heckuva lot more interesting if Kelsier is connected to her somehow, and therefore maybe fighting against Sazed as well.

Edited November 22, 2020 by Truthless of Shinovar

[StanLemon]

1 hour ago, Truthless of Shinovar said:

The thing that’s throwing me off is the use of the word “avatar”. It makes me think of Autonomy... Which would make things a heckuva lot more interesting if Kelsier is connected to her somehow, and therefore maybe fighting against Sazed as well.

I think this might be mysticism. Kelsier has made a religion around himself using subterfuge and getting people to believe divinity when there wasn't any. Perhaps as someone said it could be that he sends a Kandra using his bones and calls that his "avatar" as one possibility

[Ytsken]

I too believe the present Thaidakar is Kelsier.

And with regards the whole 'but the GBs are so evil' dilemma...  I refer to Hoid's comment to Dalinar:

Quote

“And on the topic of monarchs, I will have you know that I find you to be an endearing despot. You’re so pleasant, I almost don’t find it horrifying that I’m living among a people willing to trust a single man with near-absolute power over the lives of hundreds of thousands—while completely ignoring proper checks and balances upon his potential greed, jealousy, or ambition.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

Hoid, the familiar outsider, recognizes that Dalinar is an enlightened despot, but he is still a despot. To true outsiders like Kelsier, Roshar is a place where humanity has enslaved not only themselves but also the native sapient species, and where the dominant culture is very violent. In the past, there were true heroes but the Heralds abandoned one of their own, and the Radiants betrayed their allied spren. Quite frankly, Kelsier may see presentday Roshar as being little better than the Final Empire.

We, the readers, have gotten to understand the Kholin family by reading their points of view. So we know these are good people. But the present Kholins are not traditionally good Alethi. And we literally had Kelek's pov when he chose to abandon Taln... more importantly, we know of Taln's gratitude that the other Heralds let him carry the burden on his own. To us, these are good, if flawed, people fighting to defend their homeplanet from evil. Much like Kelsier himself in Final Empire.

And what was the first thing Kelsier learned after Final Empire? That there was much more going on in the Cosmere than he knew. That the Final Empire itself was the result of games among the Shards. So him no longer caring about the Shards and the games they play on a single planet? Especially one where he has no reason to like the native population? Makes sense.

 

[Sprendiferous]

On 11/19/2020 at 3:29 AM, ALAKA said:

The evidence is growing overwhelming. But it still sits badly with me.

Kelsier, in all the Mistborn books was "broadly" a dashing rogue type character on the side of the good guys. It's odd that he's now running an organisation that kills innocent bystanders in cold blood. Remember those porters in WoR? The Ghostbloods are horrible people.

Even if from a psychological point of view this can happen (he is a megalomaniac after all), it leaves a bad taste for a hero to just pop up somewhere else as a villain. Would Brandon do that?

Brandon has said multiple times that Kell is not strictly a good person, and that in another story he could be the villain. I remember Kell as someone who ruthlessly pursued his goals, often being the anti-Radian (Destination over Journey). I don't know why Kell would pursue an "evil" goal, but I can absolutely see him pursuing any goal in absolutely ruthless ways.

[The Ryshadium]

I think "Lord of scars" and Hoid's threat are pretty clear indications that Brandon at least wants us to think it's Kelsier. We don't have an absolute confirmation on it though. I personally think it is Kelsier because that doesn't seem like the kind of red herring Brandon would pull. In my opinion it would feel kind of cheap if it wasn't Kelsier at this point considering how hard he was hinting. About the Kalak comment: I wouldn't rule out the possibility of Kalak thinking Thaidakar is much older than he is. I also wouldn't rule out the possibility that Kelsier is not the original "Thaidakar". 

[Kingsdaughter613]

8 hours ago, StanLemon said:

I think this might be mysticism. Kelsier has made a religion around himself using subterfuge and getting people to believe divinity when there wasn't any. Perhaps as someone said it could be that he sends a Kandra using his bones and calls that his "avatar" as one possibility

My theory holds that he is actively controlling the Kandra using Soothing/Rioting + strong Connection to his old skeleton. So Avatar would actually be the appropriate term; it’s literally a body that he’s controlling from a distance that speaks and acts for him.

[ScadrianTank]

I think that @Naerin is completely correct about Kel becoming Thaidakar. So it's easy then, right? Kel joined and overtook what became the Ghostbloods and used at least a branch of them to secure access to unkeyed Investiture and his freedom. Kalak's words then make sense because he would literally know the old Thaidakar. If we look at it this way, the name also fits since it's very like Kelsier to name an organization like a street gang. 

What is bothering me is the timeline of Ghostbloods emerging as an organization. Even after his Ascension, Kelsier doesn't have enough influence and knowledge of Cosmere to create a galaxy-spanning organization in two to three hundred years, at least some of which he spent on South Scadrial making sure people there survive the Catacendre. Therefore the GBs would have to be in place and strength at least as early as the Recreance but not on Roshar. So it's either Hoid underestimates the GBs or Mraize overestimates them. And neither of these sounds plausible.

[Kingsdaughter613]

37 minutes ago, ScadrianTank said:

I think that @Naerin is completely correct about Kel becoming Thaidakar. So it's easy then, right? Kel joined and overtook what became the Ghostbloods and used at least a branch of them to secure access to unkeyed Investiture and his freedom. Kalak's words then make sense because he would literally know the old Thaidakar. If we look at it this way, the name also fits since it's very like Kelsier to name an organization like a street gang. 

What is bothering me is the timeline of Ghostbloods emerging as an organization. Even after his Ascension, Kelsier doesn't have enough influence and knowledge of Cosmere to create a galaxy-spanning organization in two to three hundred years, at least some of which he spent on South Scadrial making sure people there survive the Catacendre. Therefore the GBs would have to be in place and strength at least as early as the Recreance but not on Roshar. So it's either Hoid underestimates the GBs or Mraize overestimates them. And neither of these sounds plausible.

Hoid would know the GBs are run by Kell. Thing is, Hoid knew Kell when he was just an ordinary thief. I think Hoid is underestimating Kell and doesn’t take this 300 year old CS seriously enough.

[Chalke219]

My view was almost certainly he is referencing Kelsier, one of my favourite reveals of the whole book

 

I also got the impression that the epilogue with Wit talking about the need to sometimes lie to your audience for the story to work was analogous to this exact reveal, he's been saying previously not to expect an 'avengers style team up' but it certainly seems to be heading that way now, and I'm all for it

 

Kelsier is my absolute favourite so can't wait for more! 

[StanLemon]

6 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Hoid would know the GBs are run by Kell. Thing is, Hoid knew Kell when he was just an ordinary thief. I think Hoid is underestimating Kell and doesn’t take this 300 year old CS seriously enough.

I agree. I also think Hoid is underestimating Kelsier. Kelsier now has access to full Feruchemy and is a Mistborn and he knows even more about Hemalurgy than TLR did. Add that with Kelsier's scheming mind, 300 years of experience, and access to scientific innovation and you get a very scary person. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

20 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

I agree. I also think Hoid is underestimating Kelsier. Kelsier now has access to full Feruchemy and is a Mistborn and he knows even more about Hemalurgy than TLR did. Add that with Kelsier's scheming mind, 300 years of experience, and access to scientific innovation and you get a very scary person. 

I half-want Kell to show up on Roshar just to see Hoid’s expression when he enters the room.

I also think events on Roshar lead Hoid to realize he needs to take Kell more seriously, which is why he gives the Coppermind to Wax.