Popular Post Pagerunner Posted November 17, 2020 Popular Post Report Share Posted November 17, 2020 Earlier this month, I was reviewing Theoryland for stuff that had never made it into Arcanum, and I found a piece of Q&A from a 2017 interview that had missed being carried over: Quote Shiro Sanada Will we see Kelsier in the Stormlight Archive series? Brandon Sanderson You are not likely to see Kelsier in the Stormlight Archive series. I'll just say that. Not likely. Miscellaneous 2017 (Nov. 10, 2017) Which left me feeling totally upended after the following passages in Rhythm of War: Quote Chapter 82 Our master, Thaidakar, has an ... affliction similar to that of the Heralds. He needs access to a Herald to learn more about his state so he might save himself from the worst of its effects. ... Chapter 115 The Lord of Scars, Wit calls him. Well, next time you meet this Lord of Scars, give him a message from me. Also, Wit says to tell him, "Deal with your own stupid planet, you idiot. Don't make me come over there and slap you around again. We've got a Cognitive Shadow, not from Roshar, who Wit has physically assaulted in the past. One who is known for his scars. I can see no other scenario: this is either Kelsier himself, or a red herring to cause us to think it's Kelsier. The descriptions match him to a T. 23 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alcatur Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 Implied age doesn't quite match. Also Scadrial is hardly Kelsiers planet in this manner. Finally talking through an avatar only also doesn't sound like Kelsier, So I doubt its him 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post DracostarA Posted November 18, 2020 Popular Post Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 I'm pretty sure it is Kelsier, as WoB has stated Kelsier is capable of taking over the Ghostbloods and the name itself (ghost = cognitive shadow, blood = hemalurgy). The fact that Hoid mentioned smacking him around is the biggest confirmation imo, since Hoid is unable to harm people and the only person he has managed to hurt so far is Kelsier's Cognitive Shadow. 29 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HipsterStick Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 I was super against this theory beforehand. Very, very much so. I didn't feel like Thaidakar and Kelsier had similar enough motivations, methodologies, and ideologies to be the same person. But evidently, I do not know my boi Kelsier as well as I thought I did. As for the WoB that said Kelsier was unlikely to show up in Stormlight, may I point out that, technically, he does not have to appear himself. His influence is enough to affect the story without him being there. And there may be ways for Kelsier to finneagle his way around his Connection to Scadrial (such as the avatar that was mentioned). 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Kingsdaughter613 Posted November 18, 2020 Popular Post Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 I noted in an earlier topic that we haven’t SEEN Thaidakar. Also that Kell doesn’t listen to Brandon. 1 hour ago, HipsterStick said: I was super against this theory beforehand. Very, very much so. I didn't feel like Thaidakar and Kelsier had similar enough motivations, methodologies, and ideologies to be the same person. But evidently, I do not know my boi Kelsier as well as I thought I did. As for the WoB that said Kelsier was unlikely to show up in Stormlight, may I point out that, technically, he does not have to appear himself. His influence is enough to affect the story without him being there. And there may be ways for Kelsier to finneagle his way around his Connection to Scadrial (such as the avatar that was mentioned). I’ve felt almost from the beginning that the Ghostbloods felt like Kell’s crew. I guessed he was the Sovereign for similar reasons; it just FELT like him. And the GBs have always felt like Kell’s work. I don’t know that Brandon planned for Kell to be Thaidakar; I think Kell may have informed Brandon that he was. B: What, letting you survive your own death when I said I wouldn’t wasn’t enough? K: Nope. B: I even let you come back to life! K: Not your wisest plan, true. B: Not like I had a choice... Do you HAVE to interfere on Roshar? K: Grins evilly while tossing a coin. B: Sigh... Fine. But no one is going to actually see you. K: Shrugs. I’ll survive - and they’ll see me in the back five. B: No they wo - rusts. I’m pretty sure this is how most of their conversations go. (We’re totally seeing Thaidakar in the back five.) The only other character who controls his story to that extent is Hoid, and Brandon and Hoid are far more in sync. 23 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post physicskid Posted November 18, 2020 Popular Post Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 okay This theory terrifies me, because Shallan is so totally not ready to deal with Kelsier. 22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Aletus Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 (edited) So here's a thing. The Scar is a constellation in the Cosmere, mentioned in Stormlight as Taln's Scar, a collection of red tinged stars, shaped like a dragon. One of which we now know is on Roshar Maybe we just haven't met him yet. Also it should be noted that to my own theory's annoyance he's referenced as the Lord of Scars, two s's. Edited November 18, 2020 by Arch1tect 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsecaller_17.5 Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 (edited) I don't guys you say it feels like Kelsier and you have logic to back it up, but all I can say is to me it feels like a red herring. Edit: a small piece of evidence. Quote Geoffray Is Thaidakar the leader of the Ghostbloods? Brandon Sanderson [Thaidakar] is a leader. Paris signing (Oct. 22, 2016) Kelsier generally isn't one to share power. Edited November 18, 2020 by Elsecaller_17.5 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsdaughter613 Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 21 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said: I don't guys you say it feels like Kelsier and you have logic to back it up, but all I can say is to me it feels like a red herring. Edit: a small piece of evidence. Kelsier generally isn't one to share power. Yes, but Thaidakar appears to be stuck on his homeworld. So he’d have to share it, if only until he gets off. Bigger proof is Hoid noting that he’d beat him up again - as far as we know Hoid has only been able to beat up one person: Kell. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsecaller_17.5 Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 26 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said: Yes, but Thaidakar appears to be stuck on his homeworld. So he’d have to share it, if only until he gets off. Bigger proof is Hoid noting that he’d beat him up again - as far as we know Hoid has only been able to beat up one person: Kell. Alright, you're starting to convince me. This is going to be a gun thread to follow. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsdaughter613 Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 3 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said: Alright, you're starting to convince me. This is going to be a gun thread to follow. I’m just waiting until we can discuss this on the Mistborn forum. W&W takes place in the timeskip between SA 5&6 and Era 3, where Kell will play a role, takes place about a hundred years later. So we’ll have a LOT to theorize about. As an aside, this also would be indicative of how dangerous Kell can be. He’s stuck on another planet and STILL managing to be a major player on this one. Which is kind of terrifying... and kind of awesome. It’s not like he’s a Shard doing it; he’s essentially just a very powerful Spren stapled to a human body. I’m surprised Hoid hasn’t asked Saze to reign him in though. Next letter? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spitfireky Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 5 hours ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said: I don't guys you say it feels like Kelsier and you have logic to back it up, but all I can say is to me it feels like a red herring. Edit: a small piece of evidence. Kelsier generally isn't one to share power. This isn't a solid theory but what if Kelsier formed the Ghostbloods with Spook's help? Since Kelsier is currently a Cognitive Shadow he would've needed an "emissary" to the Physical Realm, if that makes sense. Spook hasn't been explicitly seen in any books post-MB but could still be working behind the scenes. And the name "Ghostbloods" could come from "Spook" and Hemalurgy, maybe. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subvisual Haze Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 100% Kelsier. Also explains what Hoid is up to in Bands of Mourning by gifting Wax that memory. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOneKEA Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 It’s definitely Kelsier, and Mraize’s obsession in getting Rosharan Investiture off of that planet and to other planets suddenly makes even more sense. Imagine what Kelsier could do with a renewable supply of distilled Investiture and the knowledge of mechanical Allomancy and Feruchemy! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leuthie Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 100% Brandon is throwing big stinky red herrings out to get your rabid Kelsier fans to salivate. Hoid has been around 10,000+ years. Almost certain he's slapped around more than just Kelsier. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Kingsdaughter613 Posted November 19, 2020 Popular Post Report Share Posted November 19, 2020 7 hours ago, Leuthie said: 100% Brandon is throwing big stinky red herrings out to get your rabid Kelsier fans to salivate. Hoid has been around 10,000+ years. Almost certain he's slapped around more than just Kelsier. Calling him the Lord of Scars, followed by something that appears to reference SH, after all but telling us that Thaidakar is a CS... That’s more than just red herrings. If he hadn’t used the title I’d agree, but with it... There’s only one person in the Cosmere that associated with scars who also fits neatly every other hint. If it isn’t Kell, there should be an equally obvious hint to it being another character. The fact that there isn’t, and this being book four, makes that very unlikely. Before this Thaidakar could have been anyone and we wouldn’t have been disappointed. With this, if it turns out to be someone else it’ll feel a lot like someone dragged the rug out from under us. If you are layering your foreshadowing to indicate something, you don’t do a bait & switch at the last minute for shock value. That’s how you upset your readers. If you are going to subvert expectations then you have to layer it in. But you do NOT build up an expectation solely to knock it down. No one expected Thaidakar to be Kell. Considered it: sure. Debated: definitely. Joked about: 100%. But I doubt anyone completely and truly believed that Brandon would make a Rosharan antagonist turn out to be a Mistborn protagonist. Not when he kept saying you didn’t need to read the other Cosmere books (to be fair, you don’t - yet). There was NO REASON to imply that Thaidakar was Kell. Until this book nothing had done so that couldn’t also refer to any of a dozen other characters. The ONLY reason to create that expectation now is to hint to us who Thaidakar is. Now that Brandon’s built the expectation it’s unlikely he’ll knock it down for ‘gotcha!’ points. He’s too experienced a writer to go in for such cheap tricks. If he’d wanted to minor troll us he’d have stuck to hinting that Thaidakar is a CS. He wouldn’t have dropped the very blatant ‘Lord of Scars’ hammer. There are ways to do Red Herrings. Telling us Thaidakar was a CS is a possible Red Herring. CS+ Lord of Scars + Hoid has/can beat him up + implied to be stuck on his homeworld? That’s deliberately building an expectation - and if a writer builds those, he’d better deliver. 30 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALAKA Posted November 19, 2020 Report Share Posted November 19, 2020 The evidence is growing overwhelming. But it still sits badly with me. Kelsier, in all the Mistborn books was "broadly" a dashing rogue type character on the side of the good guys. It's odd that he's now running an organisation that kills innocent bystanders in cold blood. Remember those porters in WoR? The Ghostbloods are horrible people. Even if from a psychological point of view this can happen (he is a megalomaniac after all), it leaves a bad taste for a hero to just pop up somewhere else as a villain. Would Brandon do that? 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsdaughter613 Posted November 19, 2020 Report Share Posted November 19, 2020 1 hour ago, ALAKA said: The evidence is growing overwhelming. But it still sits badly with me. Kelsier, in all the Mistborn books was "broadly" a dashing rogue type character on the side of the good guys. It's odd that he's now running an organisation that kills innocent bystanders in cold blood. Remember those porters in WoR? The Ghostbloods are horrible people. Even if from a psychological point of view this can happen (he is a megalomaniac after all), it leaves a bad taste for a hero to just pop up somewhere else as a villain. Would Brandon do that? To be fair: Kell is trapped on Scadrial right now. So odds are he’s giving directions and trusting his core crew to carry them out. Said core is then recruiting their own crews to help. But he’s not on top of it, and he can’t personally meet/vet every new recruit. And the GBs are much bigger than his old crews. So bad apples are much more likely to occur and tasks are more likely to be carried out in ways he wouldn’t approve of. That said, the overriding feel of the Ghostbloods was always that of something Kell would do. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALAKA Posted November 19, 2020 Report Share Posted November 19, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said: To be fair: Kell is trapped on Scadrial right now. So odds are he’s giving directions and trusting his core crew to carry them out. Said core is then recruiting their own crews to help. But he’s not on top of it, and he can’t personally meet/vet every new recruit. And the GBs are much bigger than his old crews. So bad apples are much more likely to occur and tasks are more likely to be carried out in ways he wouldn’t approve of. I think Thaidakar is Iyatil's master, and if she approves of Mraize it makes sense that she's pretty evil as well, and Thaidakar employs her - so it's not far removed. Also remember, the "crew" from MB were actually nicer than Kelsier was! I suppose it's plausible, though. Also agree that a more Ocean's Eleven-y (dashing rogues who get rich but don't hurt anyone who doesn't deserve it) version of the GBs would fit the Kelsier we know - and would fit better here from a plot perspective than the fairly unsuccesful attempt in MB to crowbar a heist-caper into a fantasy revolution story. But it's also plausible, like I said, that Kell is a psychopathic megalomaniac and that's what he does. I'm more bothered on a meta-level tbh - it feels un-Brandon-y and bad-tasting to turn a hero into a cruel villain, or even someone responsible for cruel villains. Anti-hero is fine, but the GBs are nasty. Edited November 19, 2020 by ALAKA 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Oltux72 Posted November 19, 2020 Report Share Posted November 19, 2020 2 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said: To be fair: Kell is trapped on Scadrial right now. Why? He had a body as far back as saving the Southerners. The Returned have no trouble travelling. 2 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said: So odds are he’s giving directions and trusting his core crew to carry them out. Said core is then recruiting their own crews to help. But he’s not on top of it, and he can’t personally meet/vet every new recruit. And the GBs are much bigger than his old crews. So bad apples are much more likely to occur and tasks are more likely to be carried out in ways he wouldn’t approve of. That said, the overriding feel of the Ghostbloods was always that of something Kell would do. Well, from Kelsier leading the Ghostbloods now we cannot necessarily conclude that he founded them. Nor can he necessarily change their mode of operation across multiple worlds. Yet, Kelsier really is not the man who would let his people murder a coachman or would casually deal with Lighteyes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsdaughter613 Posted November 19, 2020 Report Share Posted November 19, 2020 25 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: Why? He had a body as far back as saving the Southerners. The Returned have no trouble travelling. Well, from Kelsier leading the Ghostbloods now we cannot necessarily conclude that he founded them. Nor can he necessarily change their mode of operation across multiple worlds. Yet, Kelsier really is not the man who would let his people murder a coachman or would casually deal with Lighteyes. Casually murder a lighteyes is something he’d probably be okay with. Murdering a coachman is probably a no. Brandon has said Kell can’t worldhop yet. Also there seemed to be some implications of that inability here. 1 hour ago, ALAKA said: I think Thaidakar is Iyatil's master, and if she approves of Mraize it makes sense that she's pretty evil as well, and Thaidakar employs her - so it's not far removed. Also remember, the "crew" from MB were actually nicer than Kelsier was! I suppose it's plausible, though. Also agree that a more Ocean's Eleven-y (dashing rogues who get rich but don't hurt anyone who doesn't deserve it) version of the GBs would fit the Kelsier we know - and would fit better here from a plot perspective than the fairly unsuccesful attempt in MB to crowbar a heist-caper into a fantasy revolution story. But it's also plausible, like I said, that Kell is a psychopathic megalomaniac and that's what he does. I'm more bothered on a meta-level tbh - it feels un-Brandon-y and bad-tasting to turn a hero into a cruel villain, or even someone responsible for cruel villains. Anti-hero is fine, but the GBs are nasty. Mraize is nasty. But Mraize is one person. We’ve seen nicer GBs, too. Thaidakar appears to be the master of all the Ghostbloods. It’s less clear how many steps are between Kell and Iyatil. Iyatil also may have inherited her position, as she’s descended from SoScads. If she was raised by GBs, and is descended from the original GBs, that explains a lot. To a certain extent the GBs almost seem to worship their master, which makes me wonder if we aren’t looking at this wrong. I wonder if the GBs are less of a crew and more of a cult/pseudoreligion. If they are, I’m thinking this one may have been unintentional. But if they are, then we need to look at them as more akin to the Survivorists. Yes they were created by Kell, and I doubt he’s simply letting them be, but they don’t always do what he wants or likes either. And they have their fair share of nasty members. Kell has gotten so good at getting people to worship him that he seems to manage it even when he doesn’t intend to. I’d also expect opinions to look different on the other side. A great example is an unfinished Tolkien story, which shows the good guys of the Atalante as being colonialists from the perspective of someone they’re conquering. The Numenorians were shown as the bad guys there, but from their perspective (shown in the Atalante) they were doing good. It’s a fascinating example of two sides to the story. You probably wouldn’t guess that the Faithful were the heroes of another story, which they definitely are. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leuthie Posted November 19, 2020 Report Share Posted November 19, 2020 3 hours ago, Oltux72 said: Why? He had a body as far back as saving the Southerners. The Returned have no trouble travelling. I don't think this is fully confirmed, but I get the impression that cognitive shadows can't move very far from the source of Investiture that birthed them. Since Returned carry that Investiture around with them (Divine Breath), they can freely worldhop. Kelsier needs to be near sources of Preservation tuned Investiture. The Ire need to be near Dor. Etc. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted November 19, 2020 Report Share Posted November 19, 2020 For those of us keeping score at home. Considering the evidence for Kelsier=Thaidakar Our For Arguments. 1. Thaidakar is (probably) a cognitive shadow, or at least is in a similar situation to the Heralds 2. He is called "Lord of Scars" 3. Wit slapped him around Our Against Arguments. 1. Hoid says planets, plural. 2. Mraize says he talks to Kelsier's "avatar" 3. The GB are way harsher than Kelsier ever was 4. Kalak calls Thaidakar, "old Thaidakar". Kelsier's 300 yrs, Kalak is 7000 years. 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alcatur Posted November 19, 2020 Report Share Posted November 19, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Karger said: snip I would add the whole structure of insult: "Deal with your own stupid planet". I don't think that, given positive correspondence with Harmony, Hoid would call Scadrial "Kelsier's planet", much less tell him to "deal with it". It would seem to me like there is something seriously wrong there. Scadrial is ok mostly fine at this point - I have not finished W&W but as I understand there is nothing ground shattering happening in there that Hoid would be aware while in Roshar. Edited November 19, 2020 by Alcatur 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spitfireky Posted November 19, 2020 Report Share Posted November 19, 2020 2 hours ago, Leuthie said: I don't think this is fully confirmed, but I get the impression that cognitive shadows can't move very far from the source of Investiture that birthed them. Since Returned carry that Investiture around with them (Divine Breath), they can freely worldhop. Kelsier needs to be near sources of Preservation tuned Investiture. The Ire need to be near Dor. Etc. My memory is fuzzy but the Ghostbloods' goal is to find a form of portable, infinite Investiture, right? That isn't connected to a specific Shard? 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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