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Thaidakar's Identity

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Implied age doesn't quite match. 

Also Scadrial is hardly Kelsiers planet in this manner.

Finally talking through an avatar only also doesn't sound like Kelsier,

So I doubt its him

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I was super against this theory beforehand. Very, very much so. I didn't feel like Thaidakar and Kelsier had similar enough motivations, methodologies, and ideologies to be the same person. But evidently, I do not know my boi Kelsier as well as I thought I did.

As for the WoB that said Kelsier was unlikely to show up in Stormlight, may I point out that, technically, he does not have to appear himself. His influence is enough to affect the story without him being there. And there may be ways for Kelsier to finneagle his way around his Connection to Scadrial (such as the avatar that was mentioned).

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So here's a thing. 

The Scar is a constellation in the Cosmere, mentioned in Stormlight as Taln's Scar, a collection of red tinged stars, shaped like a dragon. 

One of which we now know is on Roshar

Maybe we just haven't met him yet. 

Also it should be noted that to my own theory's annoyance he's referenced as the Lord of Scars, two s's. 

Edited by Arch1tect
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I don't guys you say it feels like Kelsier and you have logic to back it up, but all I can say is to me it feels like a red herring.

Edit: a small piece of evidence.

Quote

Geoffray

Is Thaidakar the leader of the Ghostbloods?

Brandon Sanderson

[Thaidakar] is a leader.

Paris signing (Oct. 22, 2016)

Kelsier generally isn't one to share power.

Edited by Elsecaller_17.5
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21 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

I don't guys you say it feels like Kelsier and you have logic to back it up, but all I can say is to me it feels like a red herring.

Edit: a small piece of evidence.

Kelsier generally isn't one to share power.

Yes, but Thaidakar appears to be stuck on his homeworld. So he’d have to share it, if only until he gets off.

Bigger proof is Hoid noting that he’d beat him up again - as far as we know Hoid has only been able to beat up one person: Kell.

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26 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Yes, but Thaidakar appears to be stuck on his homeworld. So he’d have to share it, if only until he gets off.

Bigger proof is Hoid noting that he’d beat him up again - as far as we know Hoid has only been able to beat up one person: Kell.

Alright, you're starting to convince me. This is going to be a gun thread to follow.

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3 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

Alright, you're starting to convince me. This is going to be a gun thread to follow.

I’m just waiting until we can discuss this on the Mistborn forum. W&W takes place in the timeskip between SA 5&6 and Era 3, where Kell will play a role, takes place about a hundred years later. 
 

So we’ll have a LOT to theorize about.

 

As an aside, this also would be indicative of how dangerous Kell can be. He’s stuck on another planet and STILL managing to be a major player on this one. Which is kind of terrifying... and kind of awesome. It’s not like he’s a Shard doing it; he’s essentially just a very powerful Spren stapled to a human body.
 

I’m surprised Hoid hasn’t asked Saze to reign him in though. Next letter?

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5 hours ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

I don't guys you say it feels like Kelsier and you have logic to back it up, but all I can say is to me it feels like a red herring.

Edit: a small piece of evidence.

Kelsier generally isn't one to share power.

This isn't a solid theory but what if Kelsier formed the Ghostbloods with Spook's help? Since Kelsier is currently a Cognitive Shadow he would've needed an "emissary" to the Physical Realm, if that makes sense. Spook hasn't been explicitly seen in any books post-MB but could still be working behind the scenes. And the name "Ghostbloods" could come from "Spook" and Hemalurgy, maybe.

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100% Kelsier.  Also explains what Hoid is up to in Bands of Mourning by gifting Wax that memory.

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It’s definitely Kelsier, and Mraize’s obsession in getting Rosharan Investiture off of that planet and to other planets suddenly makes even more sense. Imagine what Kelsier could do with a renewable supply of distilled Investiture and the knowledge of mechanical Allomancy and Feruchemy!

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100% Brandon is throwing big stinky red herrings out to get your rabid Kelsier fans to salivate. Hoid has been around 10,000+ years. Almost certain he's slapped around more than just Kelsier.

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The evidence is growing overwhelming. But it still sits badly with me.

Kelsier, in all the Mistborn books was "broadly" a dashing rogue type character on the side of the good guys. It's odd that he's now running an organisation that kills innocent bystanders in cold blood. Remember those porters in WoR? The Ghostbloods are horrible people.

Even if from a psychological point of view this can happen (he is a megalomaniac after all), it leaves a bad taste for a hero to just pop up somewhere else as a villain. Would Brandon do that?

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1 hour ago, ALAKA said:

The evidence is growing overwhelming. But it still sits badly with me.

Kelsier, in all the Mistborn books was "broadly" a dashing rogue type character on the side of the good guys. It's odd that he's now running an organisation that kills innocent bystanders in cold blood. Remember those porters in WoR? The Ghostbloods are horrible people.

Even if from a psychological point of view this can happen (he is a megalomaniac after all), it leaves a bad taste for a hero to just pop up somewhere else as a villain. Would Brandon do that?

To be fair: Kell is trapped on Scadrial right now. So odds are he’s giving directions and trusting his core crew to carry them out. Said core is then recruiting their own crews to help.

But he’s not on top of it, and he can’t personally meet/vet every new recruit. And the GBs are much bigger than his old crews. So bad apples are much more likely to occur and tasks are more likely to be carried out in ways he wouldn’t approve of. 
 

That said, the overriding feel of the Ghostbloods was always that of something Kell would do. 

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1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

To be fair: Kell is trapped on Scadrial right now. So odds are he’s giving directions and trusting his core crew to carry them out. Said core is then recruiting their own crews to help.

But he’s not on top of it, and he can’t personally meet/vet every new recruit. And the GBs are much bigger than his old crews. So bad apples are much more likely to occur and tasks are more likely to be carried out in ways he wouldn’t approve of. 

I think Thaidakar is Iyatil's master, and if she approves of Mraize it makes sense that she's pretty evil as well, and Thaidakar employs her - so it's not far removed. Also remember, the "crew" from MB were actually nicer than Kelsier was! I suppose it's plausible, though. 

Also agree that a more Ocean's Eleven-y (dashing rogues who get rich but don't hurt anyone who doesn't deserve it) version of the GBs would fit the Kelsier we know - and would fit better here from a plot perspective than the fairly unsuccesful attempt in MB to crowbar a heist-caper into a fantasy revolution story.

But it's also plausible, like I said, that Kell is a psychopathic megalomaniac and that's what he does. I'm more bothered on a meta-level tbh - it feels un-Brandon-y and bad-tasting to turn a hero into a cruel villain, or even someone responsible for cruel villains. Anti-hero is fine, but the GBs are nasty.

Edited by ALAKA
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2 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

To be fair: Kell is trapped on Scadrial right now.

Why? He had a body as far back as saving the Southerners. The Returned have no trouble travelling.

2 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

So odds are he’s giving directions and trusting his core crew to carry them out. Said core is then recruiting their own crews to help.

But he’s not on top of it, and he can’t personally meet/vet every new recruit. And the GBs are much bigger than his old crews. So bad apples are much more likely to occur and tasks are more likely to be carried out in ways he wouldn’t approve of. 
 

That said, the overriding feel of the Ghostbloods was always that of something Kell would do. 

Well, from Kelsier leading the Ghostbloods now we cannot necessarily conclude that he founded them. Nor can he necessarily change their mode of operation across multiple worlds. Yet, Kelsier really is not the man who would let his people murder a coachman or would casually deal with Lighteyes.

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25 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Why? He had a body as far back as saving the Southerners. The Returned have no trouble travelling.

Well, from Kelsier leading the Ghostbloods now we cannot necessarily conclude that he founded them. Nor can he necessarily change their mode of operation across multiple worlds. Yet, Kelsier really is not the man who would let his people murder a coachman or would casually deal with Lighteyes.

Casually murder a lighteyes is something he’d probably be okay with. Murdering a coachman is probably a no.

Brandon has said Kell can’t worldhop yet. Also there seemed to be some implications of that inability here.

1 hour ago, ALAKA said:

I think Thaidakar is Iyatil's master, and if she approves of Mraize it makes sense that she's pretty evil as well, and Thaidakar employs her - so it's not far removed. Also remember, the "crew" from MB were actually nicer than Kelsier was! I suppose it's plausible, though. 

Also agree that a more Ocean's Eleven-y (dashing rogues who get rich but don't hurt anyone who doesn't deserve it) version of the GBs would fit the Kelsier we know - and would fit better here from a plot perspective than the fairly unsuccesful attempt in MB to crowbar a heist-caper into a fantasy revolution story.

But it's also plausible, like I said, that Kell is a psychopathic megalomaniac and that's what he does. I'm more bothered on a meta-level tbh - it feels un-Brandon-y and bad-tasting to turn a hero into a cruel villain, or even someone responsible for cruel villains. Anti-hero is fine, but the GBs are nasty.

Mraize is nasty. But Mraize is one person. We’ve seen nicer GBs, too.

Thaidakar appears to be the master of all the Ghostbloods. It’s less clear how many steps are between Kell and Iyatil.

Iyatil also may have inherited her position, as she’s descended from SoScads. If she was raised by GBs, and is descended from the original GBs, that explains a lot.

To a certain extent the GBs almost seem to worship their master, which makes me wonder if we aren’t looking at this wrong. I wonder if the GBs are less of a crew and more of a cult/pseudoreligion. If they are, I’m thinking this one may have been unintentional. But if they are, then we need to look at them as more akin to the Survivorists. Yes they were created by Kell, and I doubt he’s simply letting them be, but they don’t always do what he wants or likes either. And they have their fair share of nasty members.

Kell has gotten so good at getting people to worship him that he seems to manage it even when he doesn’t intend to.

I’d also expect opinions to look different on the other side. A great example is an unfinished Tolkien story, which shows the good guys of the Atalante as being colonialists from the perspective of someone they’re conquering. The Numenorians were shown as the bad guys there, but from their perspective (shown in the Atalante) they were doing good. It’s a fascinating example of two sides to the story. You probably wouldn’t guess that the Faithful were the heroes of another story, which they definitely are.

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3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Why? He had a body as far back as saving the Southerners. The Returned have no trouble travelling.

 

I don't think this is fully confirmed, but I get the impression that cognitive shadows can't move very far from the source of Investiture that birthed them. Since Returned carry that Investiture around with them (Divine Breath), they can freely worldhop. Kelsier needs to be near sources of Preservation tuned Investiture. The Ire need to be near Dor. Etc.

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For those of us keeping score at home.  Considering the evidence for Kelsier=Thaidakar

Our For Arguments.

1. Thaidakar is (probably) a cognitive shadow, or at least is in a similar situation to the Heralds
2. He is called "Lord of Scars"
3. Wit slapped him around

Our Against Arguments.

1. Hoid says planets, plural.
2. Mraize says he talks to Kelsier's "avatar"
3. The GB are way harsher than Kelsier ever was
4. Kalak calls Thaidakar, "old Thaidakar". Kelsier's 300 yrs, Kalak is 7000 years.
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1 hour ago, Karger said:

 

snip
 

I would add the whole structure of insult: "Deal with your own stupid planet". I don't think that, given positive correspondence with Harmony, Hoid would call Scadrial "Kelsier's planet", much less tell him to "deal with it". It would seem to me like there is something seriously wrong there. Scadrial is ok mostly fine at this point - I have not finished W&W but as I understand there is nothing ground shattering happening in there that Hoid would be aware while in Roshar.

 

Edited by Alcatur
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2 hours ago, Leuthie said:

I don't think this is fully confirmed, but I get the impression that cognitive shadows can't move very far from the source of Investiture that birthed them. Since Returned carry that Investiture around with them (Divine Breath), they can freely worldhop. Kelsier needs to be near sources of Preservation tuned Investiture. The Ire need to be near Dor. Etc.

My memory is fuzzy but the Ghostbloods' goal is to find a form of portable, infinite Investiture, right? That isn't connected to a specific Shard?

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