Hoid/Odium

[+robardin]

21 hours ago, biscotti said:

I think it's both.

Mr. T definitely removed Hoid's memory of their first conversation, because Hoid does the same thing over again, and Mr. T gets a do-over conversation.

But there's a key sentence right at the end: 

  Reveal hidden contents

After all, Wit's first face-to-face meeting with Odium in over a thousand years had gone exactly as he had imagined.

This seems to me to imply that Mr.T knew how Hoid imagined the conversation going.

The whole modifying/peeking at of memories stored with Investiture reminds me of (Mistborn Spoilers) 

  Reveal hidden contents

Ruin modifying the Terris copperminds

I would conclude from that last line and from the fact that we have an example of something like this happening before that he can read the memories as well as remove them.

The thought of Mr.T with so much power and Hoid's knowledge is very, very scary though.

My interpretation of Hoid thinking that the conversation with Odium having gone exactly as he'd imagined it would, to be more about Vargodium hamming it up Rayse-style. He already tried that the first time, but overdid it such that Hoid thought something was off.

And yes, Vargodium was able to discern from the memories of what Rayse did while holding the Shard, what kind of interactions he'd had with Hoid in the past and thus what Hoid would expect from him. (However, he shouldn't have access to pre-Ascension, pre-Shattering memories of Rayse the mortal with Cephandrius, unless they discussed them at some point after he Ascended, as we saw from Mistborn

Spoiler

that Harmony could not read into the personal pasts of Leras and Ati - only what they, and Rashek, had "done with the Power"

).

Quote

I shall have my vengeance, Odium said. Even if it takes an eternity, Cephandrius, I will destroy you.

"Enjoy that!" Wit said, striding toward the door. "Let me know how the brooding treats you. ..."

That was the call-and-response Hoid expected. But then, Vargodium went off-script by musing,

Quote

So interesting, Odium said. How did I never see you there, in all my planning... Tell me, whom would you pick as a champion? If you were in my place? ... Humor me.

As Hoid stood there confused at how un-Rayse-like that was, he quickly tried to recover:

Quote

Never mind, it matters not. [I imagine Vargodium waving his divine hand in front of his infinite face to "get back into character"] Whomever I pick, they will destroy Dalinar's champion! Then I will use him, and my minions on this planet, to finally do whatever I wish!

That was what Hoid figured was "going exactly as planned" -- "Except that last part". Which is what Vargodium went back in to edit out, so that when it played out a second time, he held back on that and simply stuck to reading the lines he knew Hoid would expect. From Rayse.

With any luck, the fact that he had sent Design away from him just before the First Iteration means that Design actually witnessed what had really happened, and could tell him later. Even if Design wouldn't have been privy to exactly what was said between the two, as Odium spoke directly into Hoid's mind, she could tell that Hoid for some reason fell down on his face, got up, and then re-did exactly what he had done before sending her away, even to the point of forgetting he'd already sent her away.

Edited November 20, 2020 by robardin

[GameOfGroans]

I find it interesting how Hoid losing his memories somewhat mirrors Shallan's holes in memory - and both are Lightweavers, so there might be some parallels there.

[Potus]

On 11/18/2020 at 3:04 AM, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

I'm sure that all Odium took was the memory of the first converstaion.  He realized he had tipped Wit off to how he could truly win so he did a do over.  Taking anything else would let run the risk of what he had done being discovered.

But Hoid later notices that his Perfect Pitch is slightly off. So it seems like T. Odium took away some of his Breath

[Honorless]

Just like Cultivation/Taravangian, who's playing who, I'm split on Hoid/Taravangian too. On one hand, it seems a theme of the book that even immortals make mistakes, on the other hand, Hoid could be misdirecting Odium. I mean, at first the epilogue seemed to be Brandon's opinion on writing, lol but yeah it is totally possible that Hoid just misdirected Isshin because otherwise what would be the purpose of him meeting with Odium?

 

It makes sense that Hoid used Breaths to store his memories, it's the easiest Investiture to acquire and integrate but it's also more Physical, more attached to the person than their Spiritweb. Think of it as being welded rather than melded. That's why Breaths are so transferable.

Quote

Questioner

With spikes, would you be able to actually transfer Breaths, when they get to the other planets?

Brandon Sanderson

So spikes rip off pieces of the soul and so Breaths are not going to be part of the soul. You could maybe get a divine Breath but I haven't really decided on regular Breaths, they're kind of stuck there in the Physical Realm which is not a thing that spikes are dealing with. Divine Breath, potentially, because that's something that's actually melding onto your soul. But, you know, when you're using the Breaths they reach through to the Spiritual Realm so, maybe if you got it while the Breaths were kinetic, right, while you're using them, then you might be able to rip them off. I'm not a hundred percent certain on that one.

Bystander

There's still things to decide upon.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah there's still things, like I have to kind of see. My instinct says no right now. But, you know, how they interact is not something that I have-- Yeah.

Shadows of Self London UK signing (Oct. 19, 2015)

Did Hoid really not think of their vulnerability? He has access to a lot of different Invested Arts, and he's quite old and learned, he might have copied his memories over to the Breaths specifically for this purpose.

Edited December 6, 2020 by Honorless

[Thorn]

So, I can't sleep having just finished the book and am trying entirely to figure out what just happened to Wit. 

I Appreciate all the effort here to unpack it.

I took it that Wit was entirely not expecting him to have been different.  And in figuring it out, was indirectly attacked before he could do anything. Therefore, as much as I'd like to hope, Wit was prepared, its hard for me to believe that. 

Though I hope Wit is also smart enough to not put all his memories in one basket.  And hopefully not a significant loss of memory.

Also, Renarin set the table for Rayse to die, assuming he also then saw T would ascend. 

So, did Renarin forewarn Wit?  Is it all a feint? Now I'm sad I've gotta wait 3 years to find out.

 

[Elsecaller_17.5]

On 12/5/2020 at 6:24 AM, Potus said:

But Hoid later notices that his Perfect Pitch is slightly off. So it seems like T. Odium took away some of his Breath

Well yes. The memory was stored inside the breath. I meant that Todium only took the breath containing the memories of that first conversation.

[stormlore]

On 12/7/2020 at 1:01 PM, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

Well yes. The memory was stored inside the breath. I meant that Todium only took the breath containing the memories of that first conversation.

You need 200 breaths to have perfect pitch, so he had 200 at least, then lost enough to have less than that.

 

It is very frightening. I think narratively, Wit was having too big of an impact, maybe a bit of a cosmere "easy button," so Brandon had to nerf him a little bit.

[neshua_kadal]

On 11/19/2020 at 1:37 AM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

It may be an automatic effect of having Breath, which would explain how Vasher did the same thing (wipes part of someone’s memory) in Warbreaker. Memory may auto-default to being stored in Breath of people who have them.

Spoiler

But Vasher didn't do it by himself, not technically. Identity and intent are a part of it, as we saw he asked the girl to say those specific things which made her forget a part of her experiences. Odium did no such thing, unless he compelled Wit to do so, which imo is impossible as it must come under harming Wit. Because Wit couldn't have not seen such an obvious loophole, unless he's playing Odium. One thing both Todium and Rodium have in common is that they both think they alone can get things done. So even if Wit doesn't know about Taravangian's ascension, this particular personality trap would work.

On 11/20/2020 at 7:37 AM, biscotti said:

I think it's both.

Mr. T definitely removed Hoid's memory of their first conversation, because Hoid does the same thing over again, and Mr. T gets a do-over conversation.

But there's a key sentence right at the end: 

  Hide contents

After all, Wit's first face-to-face meeting with Odium in over a thousand years had gone exactly as he had imagined.

This seems to me to imply that Mr.T knew how Hoid imagined the conversation going.

The whole modifying/peeking at of memories stored with Investiture reminds me of (Mistborn Spoilers) 

  Hide contents

Ruin modifying the Terris copperminds

I would conclude from that last line and from the fact that we have an example of something like this happening before that he can read the memories as well as remove them.

The thought of Mr.T with so much power and Hoid's knowledge is very, very scary though.

I'm sorry I might be forgetting but is the MB spoiler true? I remember it as being impossible.

[hskeeter]

A couple of quick comments on this conversation.

1 WOB has stated that while one can store memories in breaths, others can not peak at them only destroy them.

2 there are several things different the second time around with the Wit/Todium encounter; Design is not present, Hoid's coordination is off, and he is missing a coin, perfect pitch is missing.

Big question to me is did Todium jump Hoid back a little in time to reset the conversation or did he just get rid of the memories? Seems to be a hard question to answer.as Hoid does seem to start again in a different place with design missing, but did not notice the perfect pitch loss until the end and how did Todium know to delete the correct amount of memory?

Second question is did the ploy of Todium to keep Hoid from knowing the change in Vessel work?  .

[Vissy]

Hoid knows something is off and he definitely gained something from that conversation, even if Odium did not literally give himself up to him instantly.

[Frustration]

6 hours ago, hskeeter said:

Big question to me is did Todium jump Hoid back a little in time to reset the conversation or did he just get rid of the memories? Seems to be a hard question to answer.as Hoid does seem to start again in a different place with design missing, but did not notice the perfect pitch loss until the end and how did Todium know to delete the correct amount of memory?

Second question is did the ploy of Todium to keep Hoid from knowing the change in Vessel work?  .

Odium could see the memories in the breaths

as to your second point, most likely.