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Hoid/Odium


Hulaine

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Erm, so that was a rollercoaster..

I've kinda forgotten everything else Hoid had done in the book just because of how monumental the ending was for him and Mr Ts Odium.

Do we think Hoid keeps all his new memories in his "breaths" (and how do you even store memories in breaths, unless I misread and it was copperminds) or just some of them (I.e. Will he remember Jasnah etc., even?) - early book 5 speculation is that they realise wit forgets them so go hunting for his missing breaths?

He also seems to have forgotten his Spren/his spren bond? When did he eat lerisium, and could he have lost allomancy etc?

Is cultivation working with Odium now, since Mr T being the new vessel was kinda he plan? 

Lastly, and most importantly, can Mr T read them memories, or just keep them from Wit? Assume no!

Anyway, they were my initial thoughts on Hoid questions I'd love to discuss!

 

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Is Hoid Odium’s champion now? I felt like that’s what Mr T wanted from him. He kind of coyly asked “hey who would you choose?” which seemed like a set up. It’s not clear.

it does sound like he stored memory in Breaths. We didn’t know that was possible but all the magic systems can probably do similar things if one knows how. 

I assume Hoid stores older memories for the most part. Things from long ago he didn’t want to forget. I guess that’s his way around the issue Kalak and the others struggle with.

Then again Hoid immediately forgot his convo with Odium so Mr T could get a do over. So not just old memories were taken.

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It seems pretty clear that Wit keeps most of his memories. His actions in the 'do-over' is virtually identical to the first go-around, which suggests that nothing really long-term was changed. Also, he doesn't forget about Design:

Quote

But just one half? That should have been safely tucked away in the little pocket hidden in his shirt. He picked it up, glanced around to see that no one had noticed the mistake.

“Pretend you didn’t see that, Design,” he said.

But she wasn’t there on his coat. Storming spren. Had she slipped away when he hadn’t been looking? He put a hand to his head, feeling an odd disorientation.

Something was wrong. But what?

...

But no one was listening. Hadn’t there been a couple of Sja-anat’s minions following him earlier? He vaguely remembered … Design chasing them away?

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

The reason Design isn't there in the do-over is because Wit literally sent Design away in the first go-around.

Quote

Wit sighed. He bounced his coin off the ground with a metallic pling, then caught it.

“Would you go bother someone else for a while?” “Okay!” Design said excitedly. She moved off his coat and to the floor, then zipped away. His audience of corrupted windspren trailed after her. Traitors.

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

I would imagine that anything that changed how Wit would behave fundamentally would have to be classified as harming him (it would make him something he wasn't through Odium's direct action). So long-term memory is likely the big thing Odium can't change or remove since it would likely change how Wit would behave. The main loophole here seems to be that Odium can't normally look into Wit's thoughts, but 'external storage' is not covered by that restriction, presumably because they aren't actually part of Wit (e.g. a diary wouldn't be covered either):

Quote

Odium, the power said. Let me see … I cannot harm you. But here, you have used this other Investiture to store your memories, haven’t you? Because you’ve lived longer than a mortal should, you need to put the excess memories somewhere. I can’t see your mind, but I can see these, can’t I?

For the first time in a long, long while, Wit felt true terror. If Odium destroyed the Breaths that held his memories …

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

Despite Wit's concern about his memories being destroyed, it's not clear if Odium could do so (if he could, why didn't he?). It seems more likely that alteration/destruction would be more strictly enforced; looking into Wit's memories doesn't alter his personality like change in memory would, and losing short-term memory also doesn't affect his personality as much as losing long-term memory would. Forgetting e.g. Jasnah would lead to more fundamental changes, since the reason Wit is in the palace in the first place is dependent on a lot of previous events; for example, he certainly wouldn't be looking for Odium without being absolutely sure Odium couldn't harm him, so anything affecting his memory with respect to the contract is obviously still there.

What appears to have happened is that Odium removed some of his Breaths containing his memories. Wit's perfect pitch (second heightening perk) isn't working properly, though he can still sense Odium approaching:

Quote

But no one was listening. Hadn’t there been a couple of Sja-anat’s minions following him earlier? He vaguely remembered … Design chasing them away?

Wit stared around himself, but then felt something. A tingling that made his Breaths go wild.

...

“Yes, well,” Wit said from the door, “once you’re done, at least try to remember to wash your hands.” He slammed the door, then spun and continued on his way. He tried to find a tune to whistle, but each one sounded wrong. Something was fiddling with his perfect pitch.

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

So this seems to imply that his short-term memory is being stored in his Breaths somehow. This is sort of weird since Odium (and Wit's reaction earlier) seems to imply they're used more for long-term storage, but it's likely that the division is not quite so clear-cut as just long-term/short-term memory, but instead something more organic.

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5 hours ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

I'm sure that all Odium took was the memory of the first converstaion.  He realized he had tipped Wit off to how he could truly win so he did a do over.  Taking anything else would let run the risk of what he had done being discovered.

Really hope that's the case - don't like the idea of Wit doing his thing missing a load of key information; definitely a recipe for disaster! 

Good points as well Seloun - I'd forgotten he'd sent his Spren away. I guess we don't know how many/which memories were taken, if it wasn't just the recent conversation, because if he's taken short term he's only taken very short term (i.e. doing the trick with the coin, sending Design away, and the conversation), because he remembers other stuff/his dirty tricks monologue. 

8 hours ago, Seloun said:

What appears to have happened is that Odium removed some of his Breaths containing his memories. Wit's perfect pitch (second heightening perk) isn't working properly, though he can still sense Odium approaching:

My question there though, is how? Nobody can take Breaths without permission (we've seen that in Warbreaker), so it had to have been Odium taking a physical thing that had the Breaths stored in, but how and why (and I guess when?) would Wit transfer the last minute of his life into an object and not the minutes before? Unless it's some weird mechanism where every memory goes into his scarf or whatever he's got his Breaths in immediately, is sorted somehow, then moved into a longer term storage or back into his brain depending on what it contains?

Really weird the more I think about it - I trust that it's not a plot hole cus'... Brandon..., but I really wish we knew more so I could feel confident Wit's still going to be OP and all knowing in future books! 

Either way, it seems fairly clear that Odium can't see those memories, just remove them from Wit, whatever they are, right?

 

One other thing I'd thought of - Wit/Hoid, I'm pretty sure, isn't visible in the Diagram ("So interesting... Odium said. How did I never see you there, in all my Planning?"), so that might mean he's also blocked somehow from future sight for Odium as well? Odium/Rayse knew Wit was meddling to knew to look out for him, but that doesn't mean he wasn't another Renarin. 

 

Edited by Hulaine
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8 hours ago, Arch1tect said:

I don't believe Hoid can be a champion, his inability to harm doesn't seem to be a side effect of any collected investiture, more a condition of his existence. 

Dawnshard spoiler:

Spoiler

we know that this is the case from WOB from DS which says that it's because Hoid was a Dawnshard in the past (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/443-dawnshard-annotations/#e14300)

 

Edited by HoidIsAwesome
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59 minutes ago, Hulaine said:

Either way, it seems fairly clear that Odium can't see those memories, just remove them from Wit, whatever they are, right?

Odium specifically says "I can’t see your mind, but I can see these, can’t I?" referring to the 'external storage' memories, so I think he absolutely can see what's contained within.

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3 hours ago, Seloun said:

Odium specifically says "I can’t see your mind, but I can see these, can’t I?" referring to the 'external storage' memories, so I think he absolutely can see what's contained within.

But... how - literally everything we know about Breaths makes that impossible. Heck, almost all investiture the Cosmere is tapped to an individual, so even if (Era 2 Mistborn Spoiler)

Spoiler

that Identity metal from Bands of Mourning

was involved in any way, it's super unlikely that Hoid both wouldn't know about it and wouldn't protect from it, especially for important memories. As a related aside, it seems really out of character for Hoid either way - he went out of the tower knowing he could be seen by Odium as well, so knowing he was going to meet a God and presumably knowing the limits of what they're able to do pretty well (better than a newly raised God, even if he still thinks it's Rayse), why the heck would he have anything external on him that can be taken/viewed/can perhaps be destroyed?

With that in mind, I read that line as "I can see that you have this thing that stores memories, so I'ma take it from you so you lose them", even if that makes less sense than him actually seeing Hoids  memories, just cus' it would be damn stupid of a character not known to be stupid and require a significant change to how we understand Breath/Investiture.

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7 hours ago, HoidIsAwesome said:

Dawnshard spoiler:

  Hide contents

we know that this is the case from WOB from DS which says that it's because Hoid was a Dawnshard in the past (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/443-dawnshard-annotations/#e14300)

 

Wow thats a tasty bit of cruelty free vegan meat. I've been out of the theory/deepdive land for a couple of years, I totally missed that. 

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7 hours ago, Hulaine said:

But... how - literally everything we know about Breaths makes that impossible. Heck, almost all investiture the Cosmere is tapped to an individual, so even if (Era 2 Mistborn Spoiler)

  Hide contents

that Identity metal from Bands of Mourning

was involved in any way, it's super unlikely that Hoid both wouldn't know about it and wouldn't protect from it, especially for important memories. As a related aside, it seems really out of character for Hoid either way - he went out of the tower knowing he could be seen by Odium as well, so knowing he was going to meet a God and presumably knowing the limits of what they're able to do pretty well (better than a newly raised God, even if he still thinks it's Rayse), why the heck would he have anything external on him that can be taken/viewed/can perhaps be destroyed?

With that in mind, I read that line as "I can see that you have this thing that stores memories, so I'ma take it from you so you lose them", even if that makes less sense than him actually seeing Hoids  memories, just cus' it would be damn stupid of a character not known to be stupid and require a significant change to how we understand Breath/Investiture.

But we’ve seen this exact thing done before with breath.

 

“After opening the cage, Vivenna had taken the Breath back from the thread. She hadn’t stowed it somewhere else. And, with the extra awareness she had, she thought she saw something. The girl’s BioChromatic aura—the normal one that all people had—flickered just slightly. It was faint. Yet with the first Heightening, Vivenna could have sworn she saw it.

“But Denth told me it was all or nothing, she thought. You have to give away all the Breath you hold. And you certainly can’t give away part of a breath. Denth, it had been proven in other instances, was also a liar.

“Vasher stood, the girl climbing back into his arms. Vivenna walked up and was surprised to hear the girl talking. “Where’s Daddy?” she asked. Vasher didn’t reply. “I’m dirty,” the girl said, looking down. “Mommy doesn’t like it when I get dirty. The dress is dirty too.”
 

“Vasher began walking. Vivenna hurriedly caught up. “Are we going home?” the girl asked. “Where have we been? It’s late, and I shouldn’t be out. Who’s that woman?”

“She doesn’t remember, Vivenna realized. Doesn’t remember where she’s been…probably doesn’t remember anything of the entire experience.”

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Hoid isn't missing information except the one clue that something was wrong with Rayse. Now he has the other clue that something is wrong, and he's missing some breaths. I wonder how many he had, exactly, and therefore how many he's missing.

As we see from the example from Warbreaker, losing your Breath loses some memories, especially the most recent memories. Who knows what Hoid is doing, exactly, to store the memories of his life in Breath, but I would guess that all his memories are only in his Breath, and they are created and stored there. How else could it be, given what we saw at the end?

10 hours ago, Seloun said:

Odium specifically says "I can’t see your mind, but I can see these, can’t I?" referring to the 'external storage' memories, so I think he absolutely can see what's contained within.

This is the big deal, and the way Brandon gets to simply bypass the knowledge gap Taravangian has compared to the other Vessels. Now he knows what Hoid knows. Everything that Hoid knows, and all of his memories, at least since he first acquired the Breath. I think Taravangian used the loophole that the Vessel is separate from the Power. Hoid is the Vessel of all of the various forms of Investiture he's collected or infused himself with, just as each other Vessel holds the power of a Shard. The difference is one of scale, not kind. People holding Power.

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I think it's both.

Mr. T definitely removed Hoid's memory of their first conversation, because Hoid does the same thing over again, and Mr. T gets a do-over conversation.

But there's a key sentence right at the end: 

Spoiler

After all, Wit's first face-to-face meeting with Odium in over a thousand years had gone exactly as he had imagined.

This seems to me to imply that Mr.T knew how Hoid imagined the conversation going.

The whole modifying/peeking at of memories stored with Investiture reminds me of (Mistborn Spoilers) 

Spoiler

Ruin modifying the Terris copperminds

I would conclude from that last line and from the fact that we have an example of something like this happening before that he can read the memories as well as remove them.

The thought of Mr.T with so much power and Hoid's knowledge is very, very scary though.

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20 hours ago, Rainier said:

Hoid isn't missing information except the one clue that something was wrong with Rayse. Now he has the other clue that something is wrong, and he's missing some breaths. I wonder how many he had, exactly, and therefore how many he's missing.

That is a daring conclusion. We may just be seeing a temporary glitch due to being read out in an unconventional manner.

20 hours ago, Rainier said:

As we see from the example from Warbreaker, losing your Breath loses some memories, especially the most recent memories.

No. That was a fairly ordinary girl. She most likely had only her original Breath. Vasher manipulated her into manipulating it, rather than taking it. Auto-Awakening if you will.

20 hours ago, Rainier said:

This is the big deal, and the way Brandon gets to simply bypass the knowledge gap Taravangian has compared to the other Vessels. Now he knows what Hoid knows. Everything that Hoid knows, and all of his memories, at least since he first acquired the Breath.

Including Hoid's weak points. He won't strike now. He will strike right after exploiting the loop hole.

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1 hour ago, biscotti said:

But there's a key sentence right at the end: 

  Hide contents

After all, Wit's first face-to-face meeting with Odium in over a thousand years had gone exactly as he had imagined.

This seems to me to imply that Mr.T knew how Hoid imagined the conversation going.

Isn't there a line like that the first time around? Hoid thinks, "that went exactly how I imagined", then catches himself and goes "wait, that one thing was wrong." In the do-over, Odium just skips his line that made Hoid suspicious.

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21 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

It's weird that Odium was able to steal a short term memory from Hoid, I more picture coppermind type storage being for longterm memories.

Time for Hoid to tattoo "Remember Sammy Jankis" on his arm.

Lol, great reference. A polaroid of Kelsier with “Don’t believe his lies” written on it.

 It’s weird that his short term memory goes into his Breaths, but I guess Hoid’s head is full up so he is always actively storing in the Breaths. 

Taravangian not only viewed the stored memories and deleted some, he also altered some. Hoid remembers Design chasing away the two Sja-Anat spren, but that’s not what happened. Hoid told Design to go bother someone else and she ran off then the two “enlightened” spren followed after her. It’s the reverse of what Hoid remembers.

Who knows what else he changed. 

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This is what I think happened:

Hoid stores all his memories in breath automatically, it seems from what Kelek said that this can be done with any investiture. Odium was able to see all of these memories, but he only took the ones from their conversation because he doesn't want anyone to know that anything has changed. If he took anything besides for the most recent memories, Hoid would have a gap in memory somewhere that he would recognize, or would be noticeably different. But, taking the breaths where these memories were stored changed Hoid to a lower heightening so Hoid may figure out some of his breaths were taken.

The only problem I still have is if Hoid no longer has perfect pitch he must have gone below the second heightening, 200 breaths. It seems strange to say Odium only took a few minutes of memory and happened to take enough breath to lower Hoids heightening. Perhaps Hoid had exactly the second heightening so even taking one or two was enough to lower it, but then he must have only had about 200 breaths and it doesn't make sense to say that they store thousands of years of memories and taking a few minutes means taking multiple breaths.

Perhaps Hoid stores his short term memory in breath that are always with him and long term memory he stores in other breath that he keeps in something or in some other form of investiture.

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58 minutes ago, Necessary Eagle said:

Isn't there a line like that the first time around? Hoid thinks, "that went exactly how I imagined", then catches himself and goes "wait, that one thing was wrong." In the do-over, Odium just skips his line that made Hoid suspicious.

You're right, I totally forgot that part from the first run through. The conversations and responses are almost exactly the same and the "exactly how I imagined it" is in both. Odium says the same things but leaves out asking the questions that made Hoid suspicious the second time. Hoid has nearly the same replies, sometimes with slightly different wording and a few extra pauses. It could just be that Odium was improving his deception on the second run through and couldn't read the memories. 

While there isn't as strong proof of it, I still believe it's possible that Odium peeked at the memories.

The mechanical implications are also odd here. Hoid has some way of storing memories, but it would seem that these held his recent memories. This is unlike other memory storage, which was used to hold more obscure, much less accessed knowledge, such as a book or lecture. It's also odd because Odium says Hoid stores the memories because he has lived longer, and mentions that he must store the excess memories, which seems to imply he would maybe store unimportant or older memories, not things he was just doing. If it's short term, then it also must be a passive effect, as we don't see him actively storing the memories.

This creates a really weird in-between space. He has short term memories, not in his mind because Odium says he can't access it, but stored in Breath. But at the same time, Hoid can access them automatically (he obviously can normally remember things that just happened to him).

I think the most important thing is going to be how fast Hoid realizes something is up. He noticed some odd things, like perfect pitch, but if there are only ten days until the duel (Contest? Challenge?) then I have a feeling events in book five will be moving very quickly.

It still remains to be seen if anything else was altered. The epigraph title "Dirty Tricks" really fits.

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I suspect that there were a few erased conversations in-between that we weren't shown, until TOdium was content with his deception. Deleting just _one_ recording shouldn't have dropped Hoid under the second heightening, surely? 

I do find it surprising that Odium could manipulate Breaths like that, though. The Mistborn analogy doesn't exactly fit, because Breaths belong to an entirely different Shard.

 

Spoiler

Whereas half of Feruchemy comes from Ruin in the first place, so it is logical that he could edit the retrieval process from metalminds.

 

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1 hour ago, Isilel said:

I suspect that there were a few erased conversations in-between that we weren't shown, until TOdium was content with his deception. Deleting just _one_ recording shouldn't have dropped Hoid under the second heightening, surely? 

I do find it surprising that Odium could manipulate Breaths like that, though. The Mistborn analogy doesn't exactly fit, because Breaths belong to an entirely different Shard.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Whereas half of Feruchemy comes from Ruin in the first place, so it is logical that he could edit the retrieval process from metalminds.

 

I think Odium deleted other memories beyond just the conversation. He saw all the memories Hoid stored in his Breaths so now Odium has that knowledge. Then he strategically deleted and maybe altered   some so he can use that to his advantage. 

At the end of the chapter Hoid remembers Design chasing corrupted windspren away, but that’s not what actually happened earlier in the chapter. Odium changed some memories.

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