What's the loophole?

[+Oltux72]

On 2.12.2020 at 6:59 AM, Ookla the Shadowed said:

I'm not sure if anyone has said this yet, but my guess is that Dalinar could become Odiums champion, then purposely lose. That way he protects the people, but becomes a fused for Odium and the bigger Cosmere battle.

While this is elegant, there is one gigantic question. Why would Odium fall for that?

5 hours ago, zxlime said:

So yeah, maybe there are some pre-existing deals between Hoid and the Vessel Rayse that are different then those involving Hoid and the Shard Odium, and that the former falling through influences the latter.

I suppose Adonalsium's killers must have had a plan to make sure that the first one of them to pick up a Shard did not use it to wipe out the other fifteen. Depending on Hoid's role and the wording he may be covered by that. But that would be coming right out of the blue. We are supposed to be theoretically able to see the loophole, like in a murder mystery the clues are supposed to be there, but it would take superhuman powers of deduction to preempt the conclusion.

2 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

Gavinor is old enough to willingly agree to stuff, and I could easily see him being tempted into being Odium's Champion

Loyalty plays an extreme role in Alethi culture. Gavinor would not take up arms against Alethkar.

2 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

However, what if Dalinar gives up his bond and powers? Is he still a representative of Honor if he doesn't hold the powers or ability? 

His successor would still be bound to the agreement. That would presumably be the other Bondsmith. Do you see Navani kill her only grandchild?

[Use the Falchion]

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Loyalty plays an extreme role in Alethi culture. Gavinor would not take up arms against Alethkar.

Gavinor isn't loyal enough for that just yet. He knows Moash killed his father, and he wants revenge. Navani and Dalinar both note how unsettling it is for a child his age, but they try to curb it the best they can. But I could see TOdium twisting the words to be loyal: 

Come with me and you can get revenge on the man who killed your father. (Loyalty to family and vengeance.)

Come with me and you won't have actually fight your family (technically true, since they won't fight him). (Loyalty to family, as there's no fight.)

Come with me and I will make you King of Alethkar/give you your homeland back. (Loyalty to kingdom.)

 

Not only does that sound like something TOdium would do (maybe not Rayse, but definitely Taravangian), it also would give us room to explore childhood traumas in the back half, and how they affect people, along with characters like Lift, Renarin, and Jasnah. 

 

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

His successor would still be bound to the agreement. That would presumably be the other Bondsmith. Do you see Navani kill her only grandchild?

Fair point. And then Odium still wins. 

I'm thinking there may be an out if Dalinar is able to move the Connection of things around, switching Gavinor's Connection as Odium's Champion to himself and his Connection as Honor's Champion (and his Connection to Honor itself) to someone else (I'm thinking Kaladin, but it doesn't have to be), and then sacrifices himself in order to make TOdium  lose. This fits with Dalinar's arc of giving up something of status to reach a greater height: his Shardblade for his honor and the position of Highprince of War, his second Shardblade to become a Radiant, his title as highprince to become a high-king of sorts, and now it would be his position as Bondsmith to become a savior.

If  (and yes, I know it's a big if. But I like crackpot theories, so I'm running with it for now) that does happen, I'm thinking  what may happen after is that Odium would have a brief time to do what he'd like for a moment before being sent back to Braise and locked away - yes, the rules were broken/changed, but Odium still had a Champion who died and lost, so he still loses the Contest. Regardless, whatever Odium does during that time would set the course for the second arc of Stormlight IMO. 

A second, related, SUPER crackpot theory would be Odium acting out in hate and Taravangian realizing he can save the world if he makes the power act against Kharbranth, the one place he wanted - and Odium promised - to save. If the power breaks a deal, he's wounded, and maybe could be splintered, allowing us to defeat the Shard of Odium once and for all. It would be a sort of bitter irony, in a way. The one think that Taravangian fought so hard to protect turns out to be the one thing he needs to sacrifice in order to be save the world.

I'm basing it off of a Death Rattle, but admittedly the Rattle could mean a lot of things:

Quote

“A man stood on a cliffside and watched his homeland fall into dust. The waters surged beneath, so far beneath. And he heard a child crying. They were his own tears. ”

—Collected on Tanatesev 1171, 30 seconds pre-death, by the Silent Gatherers. Subject was a cobbler of some renown.

 

Edited December 3, 2020 by Use the Falchion

[Experience]

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

While this is elegant, there is one gigantic question. Why would Odium fall for that?

Because Odium has bigger plans with the Cosmere. It seems possible that Odium would be willing to let the humans survive in order to get off world and get Dalinar as a fused as well.

[Aleph-Naught]

As a dirtbag lawyer I find the talk about this contract to be very fascinating. I've been contemplating doing a lengthy compare/contrast between concepts in U.S. contract/tort law to draw parallels and explore ways in which this contract may operate but this may depend heavily on whether such a deal/agreement in the cosmere is strictly ruled by the wording or if its more about principles of equity--the 'spirit' of the arrangement. 

But even when you're stuck in a situation where a strict reading of the contract is going to dictate what happens--and may give rise to ambiguities/loopholes--in boring human law there are still defenses that can call into question whether a valid agreement exists at all, or if it's voidable. A few examples, and I'm just spit-balling here so I am not listing them on the basis of how strong or weak the merits are:

• By keeping Dalinar around, after their initial attempt to negotiate didn't work out, did Odium force him into some kind of agreement "under duress"?
• Since Wit is considered a "contract liaison", does any tampering at all by Odium infringe on any third-party benefits he may have in the contract? Does Odium's tampering with his memories constitute a tortious interference with the contract?
• Taravangian may have blundered by having inadequate knowledge about what a deal/agreement/contract requires: a "meeting of the minds". Having "absolute control" over an agreement would turn it into a "contract of adhesion" which is vulnerable to attack based on the unequal bargaining power of the parties.
• Taravangian may also be blundering by exploiting a loophole (and this is where the distinction between whether the strict wording of the agreement, or the spirit of it may heavily come into play). By doing so does he make the contract impossible or impractical to enforce? Does the fact that the vessels have changed, or exploitation of any ambiguity/loophole "frustrate the purpose" of the contract?

Contract formation/enforcement is often governed in the real world by sometimes ludicrous/arcane rules, and I hope that Brandon has opted for the same kind of complexity in the cosmere instead of a strict reading of the agreement; because, to me, it just would feel cheap if, in the end, the issue was that Dalinar/Wit weren't clever or careful enough about how they worded the agreement/contract.

Edited December 4, 2020 by Aleph-Naught

[ftl]

I'd go the other direction, and hope that the resolution to that is the Intent - basically say "yeah,  both people knew what they were agreeing to, the common interpretation to both of them is the one that counts." 

It's impossible to write a short/concise contract that's actually sound - and that should be obvious, because actually having a sound contract involves defining "willing", defining "to the death", defining "on top of urithiru", defining "serve", and so on, defining every last word being used and then some. There isn't a commonly accepted legal framework that they can fall back to to refer to those things.

 

If you just go by the words on the page, of course the contract has one loophole per word, plus a bunch. And there isn't a Cosmere Contract Resolution Service or legal code that goes with it to clarify those things - "frustrating the purpose" or "under duress" and so on and so forth don't exist. I

So to me, the only really way this works as a storytelling piece is if the agreement automagically captures the common intent of both parties, and it means exactly what it seems like it means to the reader. Doesn't mean there aren't loopholes, but you only get loopholes when both parties didn't think through the consequences of what they were agreeing to even though they both fully understood what the agreement was, not because one party managed to deceive the other one about what exactly the words of the contract meant.

So, that's my hope. I hope that both parties legitimately pick a willing champion (where we would agree the champions actually are "willing"), send them to the top of Urithiru at the appointed time to fight to the death, and somehow still end up with a surprising outcome besides a straightforward win-or-lose.

[Raven Wilder]

There's no higher authority to enforce this contract or set rules on what it can or cannot do. The only thing holding Dalinar or Odium to the contract is their own sense of honor (and the mystical ramifications of violating said honor code). For Odium to exploit the precise wording of the contract, I'd think it'd need to be something where the wording actually does seem ambiguous to him, not something where if you squint your eyes, hold it sideways, and deliberately ignore the obvious meaning, you can maybe see an alternate interpretation.

[Darth_Hel]

I'm still kind of sold on the loophole being a child as Champion, and with Dalinar as Champion that would mean defeat regardless of the child's identity. Gavinor would hurt him more, but I don't think Dalinar would deliberately kill any child. Same with Kaladin. The only chance they really have is if Szeth is made Honor's Champion, and his 5th Ideal would be very important. Unlike most characters, achieving his 5th Ideal in this case would probably be something he did sadly out of necessity not a moment of Glory. Szeth is the only character on Honor's team that I think would look at a child and no matter how it would haunt him could kill them because he generally already sees his soul as shredded and damned.

Szeth goes to Shinovar and this death rattle happens when he destroys it "A man stood on a cliffside and watched his homeland fall into dust. The waters surged beneath, so far beneath. And he heard a child crying. They were his own tears." Todium selects a child (maybe Gavinor, or Oroden, or a Shin child that Szeth brings back) knowing Dalinar could not kill the child. Szeth returns and Renarin convinces his father to select Szeth as the champion which throws off the future-sight of Todium as well as his knowledge of Dalinar he depended on bring about "I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw.". Dalinar demands Szeth surrender rather than harm the child, but Szeth instead swears the 5th Ideal leaving behind his Oath to Dalinar and draws Nightblood killing the child "So the night will reign, for the choice of honor is life...". 

If Brandon wants to go less dark, then Dalinar upon seeing that Szeth will disobey him and kill the child instead takes the bond of Odium's Champion upon himself. So, the first arch of the Archive ends much as it began with the Assassin Szeth killing a Kholin King.

[Golstar]

2 hours ago, Darth_Hel said:

If Brandon wants to go less dark, then Dalinar upon seeing that Szeth will disobey him and kill the child instead takes the bond of Odium's Champion upon himself. So, the first arch of the Archive ends much as it began with the Assassin Szeth killing a Kholin King.

Pierced by a black arrow... or is that a sword?

[Raven Wilder]

5 hours ago, Darth_Hel said:

I'm still kind of sold on the loophole being a child as Champion, (...) So, the first arch of the Archive ends much as it began with the Assassin Szeth killing a Kholin King.

Oh, that is brilliant! Well done.

[Honorless]

On 11/18/2020 at 0:39 AM, Seloun said:

1) Year was not specified. Technically this is true, but intent might not allow this to be an allowable loophole. There's also technically no mention of when the consequences will be enforced, but that's probably even less allowable in terms of intent.

Quote

"We have a contest of champions on the tenth of next month,” Odium said. “At the tenth hour.”
“So soon? The month ends tomorrow.”

"Final terms are these: A contest of champions to the death. On the tenth day of the month Palah, tenth hour. We each send a willing champion, allowed to meet at the top of Urithiru, otherwise unharmed by either side’s forces"

“The terms will enforce a treaty in ten days, following the contest. The contest will decide the fate of Alethkar, among … other items."

+ Musings of El on the Final Ten Days epigraphs

On 11/18/2020 at 0:39 AM, Seloun said:

3) Conditions are specified for Dalinar winning, and Odium winning, but not other possibilities. I don't think there's any way a third party could 'win', but would it be possible that both sides lose? If so, this might imply that Odium would be free; since both winning conditions involve Odium being trapped and the cessation of hostilities, no one winning might mean those specifically don't apply.

A tie but requiring both parties to lose... how would that be possible?

Edited December 8, 2020 by Honorless

[Seloun]

1 hour ago, Honorless said:

A tie but requiring both parties to lose... how would that be possible?

More specifically, having neither party win, since only the conditions for winning are stated. What this would exactly entail is strongly dependent on the actual nature of the contest.

WRT the comment about the timing being a possible loophole, the point was that those terms were not explicitly stated in the agreement (I agree that the epigraphs, among other things, makes it unlikely for that technicality being exploited/exploitable). When looking at the technical wording of the agreement, there are a lot of possible loopholes; this is why I believe we need to focus on passage reflecting Taravangian's thinking to decide whether a given loophole is likely to be the specific loophole Taravangian was considering.

Specifically, it's a subtle option that his predecessor overlooked. So in order for a loophole to be admissible, it needs to be something Rayse wouldn't have considered/dismissed out of hand but Taravagian would be okay with. The two options that seems the most likely to me is either something that put Rayse at risk personally (given how risk adverse he was) or something that his pride wouldn't allow (as Hoid says, this is why Rayse tried to make Dalinar his champion - he wanted to make a statement, not just win). 

[Golstar]

First Theory

Taravangian uses the phrasing

Quote

It can still be done, Taravangian realized, seeing the possibilities—so subtle—that his predecessor had missed. Yes … Dalinar has set himself up … to fail. I can beat him.

What if:
Dalinar wins:

Quote

You will vow to cease hostilities and maintain the peace, not working against my allies or our kingdoms in any way.

Odium can't work against Dalinar's allies or kingdoms, but I don't see anything about him working *for* them. He could wage war on behalf of Alethkar, he could recruit willing individuals from those realms to invade other worlds. Also he can wage war against anyone not allied with Dalinar.

Odium wins:

Quote

 if I win, I keep everything I’ve won—including your homeland. I still remain bound to this system, and will still cease hostilities as you said above.

He still only has to cease hostilities against Dalinar's allies. If Dalinar now serves Odium, doesn't that mean anyone not allied with the Odium-serving Dalinar is fair game? Doesn't this deliver all of Roshar to Odium? This may be too much against the 'intent' of the agreement, but then again it might not.

Second Theory
Dalinar is a Bondsmith - he has sworn an Oath to Unite and not Divide. Didn't he just agree to an outcome that divides Roshar between Odium and Dalinar/Honor? Isn't signing away entire kingdoms to Odium permanently against his Oath? Among other things, Dalinar breaking his Oath could probably make Szeth go bonkers. 

[Prymalfire]

I think the secret sauce is Ishar, Bondsmith Unbound.

If Ishar, or anyone really wielding the Honourblade, strips Odium from the contest and replaces him with another participant, then Dalinar is still bound win or lose, and Odium suffers absolutely 0 consequnces, win or lose.

This ups the stakes of Kaladin and Szeth's Shinovar adventure.

I'd put money on this.

[+Child of Hodor]

On 12/13/2020 at 4:04 AM, Prymalfire said:

I think the secret sauce is Ishar, Bondsmith Unbound.

If Ishar, or anyone really wielding the Honourblade, strips Odium from the contest and replaces him with another participant, then Dalinar is still bound win or lose, and Odium suffers absolutely 0 consequnces, win or lose.

This ups the stakes of Kaladin and Szeth's Shinovar adventure.

I'd put money on this.

I think this is right. If Ishar can take away Dalinar's bond to the Stormfather and his status as the guy Odium made the agreement with, then other things can be taken by a Bondsmith. Perhaps Dalinar could do this himself if sufficiently powered up and with some guidance from Ishar. Maybe a typical KR Bondsmith can't do these things, but we've seen Dalinar step into the role of Honor more and more (perpendicularity, control highstorms, accept KR oaths). If Ishar can do it then Honor's part-time vessel can do it. 

One possibility is Dalinar could do a reverse Thaylen Field gambit (Odium makes Dalinar his champion) and make Taravangian Honor's champion by transferring that status of champion from Dalinar to Taravangian (the vessel). Odium promised to spare anyone born in Kharbranth and the power is still bound by that. Taravangian is screwed, in order to win he has to die, but the power he holds can't allow someone on Odium's side to do that. 

This is one way @Chaos's idea that the Kharbranth agreement will come back to bite Taravangian could pay off. Taravangian appears to Dalinar at the top of Urithiru "Surprise! Now here's my champion (Kaladin's baby brother or other small child he is sure Dalinar won't harm)". Dalinar then knows Mr. T is still alive and he can do the switcheroo. 

Alternatively he can take away the status of champion from Odium's champion and give it to someone he is willing to kill (himself or someone else). Maybe make Taravangian fight.

Taravangian fighting:

(I know, I know he killed Rayse, but that was in the cognitive realm with Nightblood and the element of surprise.)

Edited December 16, 2020 by Child of Hodor

[spitfireky]

On 12/4/2020 at 3:04 PM, Darth_Hel said:

So, the first arch of the Archive ends much as it began with the Assassin Szeth killing a Kholin King.

Wouldn't it be crazy if the last words of SA 1-5 were something along the lines of "Szeth-son-son Vallano, Truthless of Shinovar, wore white on the day he killed a king"? The entire first five books would be a ketek.

[SwordNimiForPresident]

I think the best path forward for team Radiant would be to capture Karbranth and use Taravangian’s family to force him to break his word. He was willing to sacrifice the entire world for them so it could work. Once he breaks his word Cultivation can kill and shatter him.

[Kingsdaughter613]

7 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I think the best path forward for team Radiant would be to capture Karbranth and use Taravangian’s family to force him to break his word. He was willing to sacrifice the entire world for them so it could work. Once he breaks his word Cultivation can kill and shatter him.

Except that this would be completely dishonorable. The Windrunners would either leave the coalition or end up breaking their Oaths. The Dustbringers would likely side with Kharbranth. The Edgedancers would be in the same place as the Windrunners. Oh, and the Stormfather would be dead due to Dalinar breaking his oaths.
 

Only the Lightweavers and sole Edgedancer might be okay.

Anyway, Dalinar is too honorable to do any of the above ideas.

[Frustration]

24 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Only the Lightweavers and sole Edgedancer might be okay.

Anyway, Dalinar is too honorable to do any of the above ideas.

Elsecaller, not edgedanncer.

[Kingsdaughter613]

6 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

Elsecaller, not edgedanncer.

Yes, sorry. They both start with E and I typed the wrong one.

[SwordNimiForPresident]

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Except that this would be completely dishonorable. The Windrunners would either leave the coalition or end up breaking their Oaths. The Dustbringers would likely side with Kharbranth. The Edgedancers would be in the same place as the Windrunners. Oh, and the Stormfather would be dead due to Dalinar breaking his oaths.
 

Only the Lightweavers and sole Edgedancer might be okay.

Anyway, Dalinar is too honorable to do any of the above ideas.

They all seem to be OK with killing Odium's other supporters. What would make Karbranth different?

[Kingsdaughter613]

12 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

They all seem to be OK with killing Odium's other supporters. What would make Karbranth different?

Kharbranth is neutral, actually. They aren’t joining either side. And threatening an innocent child, like T’s granddaughter, is highly dishonorable.

[metaldragon]

I thought the answered lay in Wits story about his card games and never playing a hand he could lose but getting tricked into a draw.

It would remove Dalinar from play and allow odium to do as he pleases in the meantime.

He doesn't need to win he just has to not lose long enough to tip the odds in his favor.

[GameOfGroans]

Whatever happens, I don't think it can be anything anticlimactic. Brandon wouldn't miss a chance for a long, dramatic, unpredictable battle, spanning at least 5 chapters and including at least 8 long conversations in decisive moments. Especially for the climax of a 5-book story.

That said, I wonder if the champions will be allowed to have helpers (like Adolin in WoR - I still can't wrap my head around the rules that allowed him to have help).

The only certain thing is Nightblood won't end up in Todium's hands as some suggested - Nightblood was created to destroy evil, after all.

Or, hear me out - Todium draws Nightblood, Nighblood consumes him, ascends to be Odium itself - Nighodium?

[spitfireky]

5 hours ago, GameOfGroans said:

Or, hear me out - Todium draws Nightblood, Nighblood consumes him, ascends to be Odium itself - Nighodium?

In the livestream last night Brandon said that Nightblood was incapable of consuming a full Shard.

[GameOfGroans]

17 hours ago, spitfireky said:

In the livestream last night Brandon said that Nightblood was incapable of consuming a full Shard.

Too bad. That would have been funny