What's the loophole?

[PerpetualWheels]

Are we 100% sure that Evi is dead? And that there's no shadow that remains, and that there's no way she can be made into the champion?

Or that someone could lightweave her face onto Odium's champion?

[Karger]

59 minutes ago, PerpetualWheels said:

Are we 100% sure that Evi is dead? And that there's no shadow that remains, and that there's no way she can be made into the champion?

Yes.

Quote

dIvorrap

Was really Evi the voice that Dalinar heard when he opened Honor's perpendicularity?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO. (You knew it was coming.)

So here's the thing--I'm never going to confirm or deny anything from beyond the Spiritual Realm. Because it is unfair for me to do so. I believe there is an afterlife in our world, while others (quite rationally) conclude there is not.

The Cosmere has systems in place for ghosts and things to be real, yes, but I want it to always be possible for intelligent people to disagree about things like Evi's voice. Spiritual Connection creates visions in the Cosmere that are quite realistic (like all the ones Dalinar experienced.)

What Dalinar heard here could very rationally be a version of such a vision. That's what the Death Rattles are, for example.

Or, it could be his dead wife speaking to him from beyond the grave. Navani would say that's what it is; Jasnah would say it's the first. I try very hard (despite my personal biases) to not undercut the viewpoint of someone who doesn't believe in an afterlife. It is vital to me that the author not sweep in and say, "Yeah, it's cool some characters are Atheists at all who doesn't believe in an afterlife...but nudge nudge, we both know there is one."

The existence of an afterlife (not Cognitive Shadow style, but in the Beyond) in the cosmere is subject to your own personal interpretation. Everything that happens like this CAN be explained by Realmatic Theory, with very valid examples from the books.

General Reddit 2020 (June 5, 2020)

59 minutes ago, PerpetualWheels said:

Or that someone could lightweave her face onto Odium's champion?

That would be a very lightweaverish strategy although in this case I do not think a particularly effective one.  It is too improbable too do enough damage and I think it would kind of piss him off.

Edited November 19, 2020 by Karger

[Elsecaller_17.5]

On 11/18/2020 at 11:24 AM, DracostarA said:

I think here is where this particular Death Rattle comes into play. 

Not sure if a baby counts as a willing champion, but if it is agreed to be a contest 'to the death' then if Dalinar fails to kill it, does it mean he forfeits? 

That's crazy dark. What if its Gavilar.

Edit: this is why I need to read the while thread before posting. 

Edited November 19, 2020 by Elsecaller_17.5

[Subvisual Haze]

My thoughts were drawn to this death rattle

Quote

So the night will reign, for the choice of honor is life...

So Odium could just threaten to have his agents murder everyone in his conquered territory unless Dalinar throws the duel?  Win or lose Odium maintains control of a large swath of territory.

[+Oltux72]

13 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

So Odium could just threaten to have his agents murder everyone in his conquered territory unless Dalinar throws the duel?  Win or lose Odium maintains control of a large swath of territory.

But that is not what he wants. To a man like Taravangian that is peanuts. He wants to get out of the Rosharan system. He does not have to win. His loophole must not help him to win. He must get out of the battle of champions or get a result not covered in the agreement, like both combatants killing each other. Making Dalinar give up runs the chance of this counting as a victory.
Preferably he has to get out of the duel in such a way that it is a tactical loss to the Coalition, like killing Dalinar (again a mutual kill looks like an extremely attractive option) or destroying Urithiru (letting an enemy you must not harm onto the roof of your main base is a bad idea).

[Lanceryn Rider]

It is specified that the champions be unharmed by the other side. This means that they should not try to sabotage the others champion in any way, but what if Odium chooses someone who has already been harmed? Would that force Dalinar to concede? Would it make a difference if he can find someone who was poisoned or wounded before and will die from an existing wound at the time of the duel?

[Subvisual Haze]

15 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

But that is not what he wants. To a man like Taravangian that is peanuts. He wants to get out of the Rosharan system. He does not have to win. His loophole must not help him to win. He must get out of the battle of champions or get a result not covered in the agreement, like both combatants killing each other. Making Dalinar give up runs the chance of this counting as a victory.
Preferably he has to get out of the duel in such a way that it is a tactical loss to the Coalition, like killing Dalinar (again a mutual kill looks like an extremely attractive option) or destroying Urithiru (letting an enemy you must not harm onto the roof of your main base is a bad idea).

The true win condition isn't about winning or losing the duel.  It's about getting Dalinar to break his word that there will be a duel.  As the closest thing to the holder of Honor's power, Dalinar breaking a vow could have catastrophic consequences on Honor's power binding Odium.

[+Child of Hodor]

One loophole is the 10 days. Odium can push to conquer everything before the contest and he gets to keep it win or lose.

The other is the agreement is void if either of them breaks their word and Odium can boss Dalinar around if he wins. Odium could order Dalinar to do something that violates the agreement and Odium could leave the system. 

The top of Urithiru is not neutral ground, it’s weird Odium agreed to it now that voidbinding doesn’t work there and Moash can’t fight for him now. I guess he could pick Nale.

I’m sure it won’t be just a fight to the death, it will be some weird spiritual, cognitive mumbo-jumbo.

[Lanceryn Rider]

2 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

One loophole is the 10 days. Odium can push to conquer everything before the contest and he gets to keep it win or lose.

I agree this is an issue, but it seems that Dalinar is aware of this. He says they need to make sure Odium cannot take more territory and that that part of the deal was not thought through well. Still, Odium is definitely capable of finding a way to take advantage of this that we did not think of.

A similar issue is the places that are not part of Dalinars coalition and have not sided with Odium, like Shinovar and Tukar. I think Odium can keep trying to conquer these places after the contest no matter who wins. He can probably say that anywhere in the cosmere that is not explicitly allied with Dalinar he is allowed to attack, although I don't think that lets him leave Roshar

[spitfireky]

1 hour ago, Child of Hodor said:

The top of Urithiru is not neutral ground, it’s weird Odium agreed to it now that voidbinding doesn’t work there and Moash can’t fight for him now. I guess he could pick Nale.

I’m sure it won’t be just a fight to the death, it will be some weird spiritual, cognitive mumbo-jumbo.

What if it's Ishar?

[Kingsdaughter613]

1 hour ago, Subvisual Haze said:

The true win condition isn't about winning or losing the duel.  It's about getting Dalinar to break his word that there will be a duel.  As the closest thing to the holder of Honor's power, Dalinar breaking a vow could have catastrophic consequences on Honor's power binding Odium.

This. I had the weird thought that O could pick someone like Mraize, tell Dalinar, then arrange for Shallan (or other) to run into Mraize BEFORE she finds out. She attacks him... and Dalinar’s Oath is void.

[Mercy]

Odium's Champion is permitted to Urithiru without harm. However, the contract does not permit him doing harm to others, with the exception of Dalinar's Champion.

Could Odium's Champion not just walk through Urithiru on his way to the contest, killing everyone he passes, and the coalition can't do anything to stop him, for risk of causing harm, and thus voiding the contract?

[Karger]

17 minutes ago, Mercy said:

Could Odium's Champion not just walk through Urithiru on his way to the contest, killing everyone he passes, and the coalition can't do anything to stop him, for risk of causing harm, and thus voiding the contract?

In theory maybe in practice a bit doubtful.  The amount of damage Odium's champ can cause with the suppression on and Navani working on is limited.  Besides what if they hurt themselves or get lost?  The tower is a maize and Odium has no influence inside.

[Sparks]

Other loopholes:

1) The agreement says the sides will send a champion, nowhere does it say they cannot send anyone else to fight with them

2) The agreement says the sides will send their champions to the top of Urithiru, it makes no mention of being in the Physical Realm

3) The agreement says the champions will not be harmed prior to the contest by either side's forces, it makes no mention of hiring a third party assassin (Mraize, etc).

4) The agreement says the champions will arrive to the contest unharmed, it says nothing about booby-trapping the top of Urithiru

5) The agreement says nothing about weaponry of the champions, Taravangian can spend the next 10 days trapping Szeth in Shinovar and stealing Nightblood for the duel

6) The agreement says nothing about hiring an immortal for a champion, what if Taravangian convinces Wit or Cultivation to be his champion for the right inducement?

I forget the exact quote and where, but there's a passage in a previous book where Wit tells Dalinar he'll watch Roshar burn to get what he wants

7) Victory conditions: the agreement states Odium can't work against Dalinar's allies or their kingdoms, but it says nothing about subverting them to switch sides

8) Victory conditions: what if neither side can die, or what if both sides die. there are no conditions on Odium if there's a draw, as other people have pointed out

 

[ftl]

So, in my mind, it has to be a loophole that works even with the spirit of the agreement and not just the exact words. I think it's pretty trivial to find a billion loopholes in the wording of things, because the English language (and Alethi by extension) is not precise enough to specify a contract unambiguously. If you can get around the terms with semantic workarounds (like defining "an asssassin you hire" to be not "part of your forces") then this whole thing is kind of pointless. So since the conversation is taking place with a being in the Spiritual Realm, I'm assuming that the contract covers the Intent of both participants in it and not just the precise spoken words.

To me, it seems that the most likely loophole is the draw. The contract doesn't specify what happens if neither or both participants die. And this is something that isn't covered by the Intent of the people making the agreement, because it's quite possible that neither Dalinar nor Rayse were considering it at all. Rayse certainly doesn't seem like the type to play for a draw. Dalinar isn't either.

So I wonder if the contest of champions is actually going to happen really early in book 5 (say, the end of Part 1) and will somehow end in a draw. And then there's gonna be a whole book of fighting against crafty TOdium.

[Kingsdaughter613]

2 hours ago, Sparks said:

Other loopholes:

1) The agreement says the sides will send a champion, nowhere does it say they cannot send anyone else to fight with them

2) The agreement says the sides will send their champions to the top of Urithiru, it makes no mention of being in the Physical Realm

3) The agreement says the champions will not be harmed prior to the contest by either side's forces, it makes no mention of hiring a third party assassin (Mraize, etc).

4) The agreement says the champions will arrive to the contest unharmed, it says nothing about booby-trapping the top of Urithiru

5) The agreement says nothing about weaponry of the champions, Taravangian can spend the next 10 days trapping Szeth in Shinovar and stealing Nightblood for the duel

6) The agreement says nothing about hiring an immortal for a champion, what if Taravangian convinces Wit or Cultivation to be his champion for the right inducement?

I forget the exact quote and where, but there's a passage in a previous book where Wit tells Dalinar he'll watch Roshar burn to get what he wants

7) Victory conditions: the agreement states Odium can't work against Dalinar's allies or their kingdoms, but it says nothing about subverting them to switch sides

8) Victory conditions: what if neither side can die, or what if both sides die. there are no conditions on Odium if there's a draw, as other people have pointed out

 

There’s also: create a situation where Dalinar unwittingly breaks the bargain (such as by choosing a champion and putting him/her where one of Dalinar’s allies will unwittingly attack)
 

Nothing says the champion has to be Rosharan - or can’t have access to other planets investiture.

Going by Wit’s story... telling the champion to ensure a draw.

Picking someone Dalinar won’t fight.

Noting the technicality of a contest and choosing something that is not a fight.

Picking a Spren as Champion.

[+Oltux72]

3 hours ago, Karger said:

In theory maybe in practice a bit doubtful.  The amount of damage Odium's champ can cause with the suppression on and Navani working on is limited.  Besides what if they hurt themselves or get lost?  The tower is a maize and Odium has no influence inside.

That touches another issue. You cannot harm the champion. Hence the surpression field has to be switched off.

17 minutes ago, ftl said:

So, in my mind, it has to be a loophole that works even with the spirit of the agreement and not just the exact words.

That seems to match the Intent of Odium.

17 minutes ago, ftl said:

To me, it seems that the most likely loophole is the draw.

Yes.

17 minutes ago, ftl said:

The contract doesn't specify what happens if neither or both participants die.

I would say that it says to the death. The fight will go on, at worst until one of them expires from old age.
It does not cover a double kill. Odium could send a suicide bomber.

17 minutes ago, ftl said:

And this is something that isn't covered by the Intent of the people making the agreement, because it's quite possible that neither Dalinar nor Rayse were considering it at all. Rayse certainly doesn't seem like the type to play for a draw. Dalinar isn't either.

Taravangian is, though.

17 minutes ago, ftl said:

So I wonder if the contest of champions is actually going to happen really early in book 5 (say, the end of Part 1) and will somehow end in a draw. And then there's gonna be a whole book of fighting against crafty TOdium.

They will try to get Ishar and the Honor Blades in SA 5. It is just too obvious. So I'd say book 2.

[ScavellTane]

I think if Dalinar looses, technically Odium would also get Szeth/Nightblood if Szeth doesn't progress.

[Efebre]

gavinor being odiums champion?

He has an erratic behaviour, to agressive for being a child. 

possibly touched by odium or odium sprens before.

 

renarin could also be?

[Jaconis]

I’ve had a thought, one that is perhaps a little terrifying. A loophole that, while it would mean Odium is still trapped, he would have Dalinar. 

Would it be possible for Odium to select himself as his champion?

Dalinar, in the meeting discussing terms, even admits that he is likely going to select himself. Nothing in the contract says that the champions cannot be the writers of said contract.

This doesn’t fit with the rest of the context when the loophole is discussed, which is that it sets up a situation that, win or lose, you win. This would be better though. Guaranteed win for Odium. 

[+Q10fanatic]

Dalinar should just pick a Sleepless. Can't be killed, can just shove an army of bugs at Odium's champion until they fall off the edge of Urithiru.

[DracostarA]

I had an interesting thought. When Odium was negotiating with Taravangian at the end of Oathbringer he says

Quote

“Our word is the contract. I am not some spren of Honor, who seeks to obey only the strictest letter of a promise. If you have an agreement from me, I will keep it in spirit, not merely in word.”

However the first thing Taravangian thinks about is finding loopholes in the contract with Dalinar. Maybe this was a quirk of Rayse's own character as opposed to the nature of Shardic contracts or the Shard's Intent.

[kaellok]

14 minutes ago, DracostarA said:

I had an interesting thought. When Odium was negotiating with Taravangian at the end of Oathbringer he says

However the first thing Taravangian thinks about is finding loopholes in the contract with Dalinar. Maybe this was a quirk of Rayse's own character as opposed to the nature of Shardic contracts or the Shard's Intent.

Ulim is a spren of Odium.  Ulim absolutely tricks many of the Listeners into sacrificing themselves so that they Fused can be born.  Words like "You'll have a form of power" that are technically true, but violate the Intent egregiously.

While spren are more free to act in ways other than their Shard, I do think that a significant portion of the whole Intent thing comes from Rayse.  Maybe not even most, but enough that he doesn't go looking for gimmicks that would meet the Intent as stated while also undermining the agreement.  Or maybe it's because over time Odium changed Rayse to be like that, and Mr T is new to the position and so has more freedom.

Quote

Dalinar: "You told me earlier that you wished to  be proven wrong.  If you're sincere--and this was never about being right or about gaining power--then on that day we can embrace, knowing it is all over.  Old friend."

Taravangian looked at him, and there were tears in his eyes.  "To that day, then," he whispered.  "And to that embrace."

Dalinar is the holder of Honor's power, and has made a prior contract with Intent with Taravangian.  All Taravangian has to do is end the war immediately, then show up on top of Urithuru and reveal the true extent of what has happened.  Dalinar and Mr. T embrace, and it's all over.  Including the travel restrictions on Odium.

[Seloun]

An interesting passage from TWoK:

Quote

“So, are you going to apologize?” she asked.

“For?”

“For missing our appointment.”

Dalinar froze in midswing. He’d completely forgotten that, at the feast when she’d first returned, he’d agreed to have Navani read for him today. He hadn’t told his scribes of the appointment. He turned toward her, chagrined. He’d been angered because Thanadal had canceled their appointment, but at least he had thought to send a messenger. Navani stood with arms folded, safehand tucked away, sleek dress seeming to burn with sunlight. She bore a hint of a smile on her lips. By standing her up, he’d put himself—by honor—in her power.

“I’m truly sorry,” he said. “I’ve had some difficult things to consider lately, but that doesn’t excuse forgetting you.”

Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 418). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

(emphasis mine)

Probably a coincidence, but the wording is suspiciously similar to what Rayse!Odium uses. So not sending a champion (or being delayed) is definitely a reason for forfeiture; perhaps Taravangian has a plan for starting something that would require Dalinar to be somewhere else (forcing a different champion, or forfeit).

[+Oltux72]

4 hours ago, Seloun said:

An interesting passage from TWoK:

(emphasis mine)

Probably a coincidence, but the wording is suspiciously similar to what Rayse!Odium uses. So not sending a champion (or being delayed) is definitely a reason for forfeiture; perhaps Taravangian has a plan for starting something that would require Dalinar to be somewhere else (forcing a different champion, or forfeit).

True, but wouldn't Dalinar designate a second in line? He is a military officer with decades of campaigning behind him.

We have three clues

• what we know about the agreement itself
• Taravangian asking Hoid, whom he expects Odium to nominate
• Odium running an urgent test on Lezian

11 hours ago, kaellok said:

Ulim is a spren of Odium.  Ulim absolutely tricks many of the Listeners into sacrificing themselves so that they Fused can be born.  Words like "You'll have a form of power" that are technically true, but violate the Intent egregiously.

Yes, the problem is not tricking your enemy, but breaking your word about your own actions resulting from an agreement

13 hours ago, Q10fanatic said:

Dalinar should just pick a Sleepless. Can't be killed, can just shove an army of bugs at Odium's champion until they fall off the edge of Urithiru.

.We may speculate that the weapons test El ran was part of a crash project to find anti-Investiture designed for exactly that eventuality.

19 hours ago, Jaconis said:

This doesn’t fit with the rest of the context when the loophole is discussed, which is that it sets up a situation that, win or lose, you win. This would be better though. Guaranteed win for Odium. 

Right, so I think the best clue was - I think - Taravangian's question to Odium. It tells us two things.

1. He is expecting the duell to at least get very close to starting - it would be pointless to ask that question if he were concentrating on finding a way to pressure Dalinar into calling the whole thing off days before the tournament or wanted to kill Dalinar in the next few days
2. I think we can safely assume that Taravangian does not need Hoid's sincere advise. He wants to know which enemy they are preparing against. That seems to indicate that he does not believe that Dalinar will give battle in person.

Based on that I think he is speculating on a draw based on both champions dieing and is working on setting up weapons for several adversaries. But I admit that this is based on very thin ice. I would bet only a trivial amount of money on it.