Jump to content

What's the loophole?


Seloun

Recommended Posts

Wow. Book 4's HSQ is pretty absurd. I feel like there's a million new questions to ask now. First one, though, which seems somewhat tractable and perhaps the most immediately plot-relevant to the series...

Quote

There was so much to do. He sorted through Odium’s previous plans and saw all their flaws. How had he let himself be maneuvered into this particular deal with Dalinar? How had he let himself rely so much upon a contest of champions? Didn’t he know? The way to win was to make sure that, no matter the outcome, you were satisfied. Odium should never have entered a deal he could not absolutely control.

It can still be done, Taravangian realized, seeing the possibilities—so subtle—that his predecessor had missed. Yes … Dalinar has set himself up … to fail. I can beat him.

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

What did Taravangian notice in the contract?

The specific wording of the contract:

Quote

He took a deep breath. “Final terms are these: A contest of champions to the death. On the tenth day of the month Palah, tenth hour. We each send a willing champion, allowed to meet at the top of Urithiru, otherwise unharmed by either side’s forces. If I win that contest, you will remain bound to the system—but you will return Alethkar and Herdaz to me, with all of their occupants intact. You will vow to cease hostilities and maintain the peace, not working against my allies or our kingdoms in any way.”

“Agreed,” Odium said. “But if I win, I keep everything I’ve won—including your homeland. I still remain bound to this system, and will still cease hostilities as you said above. But I will have your soul. To serve me, immortal. Will you do this? Because I agree to these terms.”

“And I,” Dalinar whispered. “I agree to these terms.”

“It is done.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

However, this is a bit fuzzy since the additional clause that Wit mentions earlier presumably still holds, which seems to imply something about the original agreement still holds, as the final wording doesn't mention that bit specifically. The discussion about the said clause:

Quote

“You’ve told me he would destroy you if he found you.”

“We’ll add a line to the contract,” Wit said, “naming me as a contractual liaison for Honor—whom Dalinar represents. This will protect me from Odium’s direct attacks for the life of the contract. He will have to abide by those terms, as they are part of the promise Rayse made by taking up the Shard of Odium. To fail that promise would give others an opening against him, and said failures have killed gods before. Odium knows it. So do this, and I can help you openly. As myself.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

which definitely appears to apply, as in the Epilogue Taravangian!Odium notes he cannot harm Wit:

Quote

“Who are you?” Wit whispered.

Odium, the power said. Let me see … I cannot harm you. But here, you have used this other Investiture to store your memories, haven’t you? Because you’ve lived longer than a mortal should, you need to put the excess memories somewhere. I can’t see your mind, but I can see these, can’t I?

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

So that part still somehow seems to apply, which again in turn may mean something more than the 'final agreement' is actually part of the final agreement. Either that, or they're just working off of the intent that the 'final agreement' portion is merely an edit of the original contract - this seems like the most reasonable explanation. So let's assume that the 'final agreement' and the liaison clause constitute the entirety of the contract.

Wit actually suggests the most likely loophole (though talking about a different experience):

Quote

“Someone else rigged the game so that no matter what move I made, I could not win. The game was a tie, something I hadn’t anticipated. I’d focused my cheating on making certain I didn’t lose, but I’d bet on myself winning. And I bet it all, you see—if I’d have been more clever, I’d have let less be lost.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

Ironically, this is to convince Jasnah that Rayse!Odium could be beaten, despite all of his advantages. So it's possible that a tie or a draw in the competition would be sufficient for Odium somehow. It's a bit unclear, since Taravangian refers to the solution as Dalinar failing, and Taravangian beating him, rather than Taravangian winning (Dalinar's victory being the end of conflict on Roshar, presumably, versus Odium's desire to not be trapped in the system; these aren't necessarily exclusive).

The problem is that there appears to be a lot of ways you could generate a draw:

1) Year was not specified. Technically this is true, but intent might not allow this to be an allowable loophole. There's also technically no mention of when the consequences will be enforced, but that's probably even less allowable in terms of intent.

2) Contest (which implies but may not be a 'fight') is 'to the death', which implies the contest will not be over until one of the champions die. If something that can't die is chosen, I'm not sure how this gets resolved. I was thinking about Fused at first, but I'm pretty sure they are defined to 'die' and just 'return', rather than not dying. But what about something like a spren? Although it looks like it might be possible for spren to actually die (and not just deadeye). Or alternatively, just someone who can escape the area without dying, or hide, or any other way to delay the death. I was thinking about something inanimate, but that is ruled out by...

3) Willing champion. This seems to imply whoever/whatever is chosen has to have the capacity to be willing, which probably rules out non-sentient beings. Might also allow for possibility of forfeit if the chosen champion could somehow be declared unwilling, although it's difficult to see how this could apply if Dalinar really chooses himself as his champion.

There might be other loopholes besides going for draw:

1) I/Rayse association. Doesn't really seem to work since Taravangian's thoughts seem to imply it was something Rayse could have done.

2) Somehow whoever wins doesn't actually matter. This implies that Taravangian might have seen something in the two 'common' conditions of the victory results (Odium is bound in the system, and he will stop hostilities and maintain peace), as those are explicitly identical in both victory conditions. Possibly something regarding 'my allies or our kingdoms' in some way?

3) Conditions are specified for Dalinar winning, and Odium winning, but not other possibilities. I don't think there's any way a third party could 'win', but would it be possible that both sides lose? If so, this might imply that Odium would be free; since both winning conditions involve Odium being trapped and the cessation of hostilities, no one winning might mean those specifically don't apply.

One final clue might be that Wit seems to stumble on a possible loophole, but only after the thought that Odium might not be Rayse comes up:

Quote

Was Rayse growing more thoughtful? Wit didn’t need to worry, did he? After all this, Odium would be safely imprisoned, no matter what happened. There was no way out.…

Unless

Wit’s breath caught, but then he forced himself to keep whistling and walking.

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

So it may be related to something Rayse would not have considered (e.g. too proud to 'lose', even to win). While it's possible what Wit's thinking of here is not related to Odium no longer being held by Rayse, this seems like the most plausible conclusion - he would likely have considered pretty much every other scenario already, but the epigraphs seem to make it clear the Wit essentially equates Rayse with Odium.

An aside to note is that the one big other condition that's attached to Odium right now is the promise to preserve Kharbranth:

Quote

“Kharbranth,” Odium said. “The city itself, and any humans who have been born into it, along with their spouses. This is whom I will spare. Do you agree to this?”

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1217). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

It'd be interesting if this ended up coming back somehow (a champion from Kharbranth?), although given that Odium doesn't necessarily seem interested in wiping out humanity, this might end up being a moot point. But the irony of Taravangian managing to literally outwit himself would be such deliciousness that I can't help but hope that this works into it somehow.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've just finished the 20 hour readathon, and am still reeling - even if we can't find the loophole, Hoid knew there was one (with the whole "unless"), and new Odium now has his memories so also knows... plus the full knowledge of Dalinar etc that Wit had picked up, so maybe something in there can be used against him?

I don't think the obvious loopholes (no year etc.) are likely, and honestly until reading some of your suggestions it didn't read it as any loopholes were the problem, it was more that the champion appointed would lose (and the unless meant X could beat Dalinar). 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Agreed with the above, that the loophole could be trying to force Dalinar to break his oath.

Only other one that comes to mind is some multi-step process where Dalinar loses, becomes a servant of Odium, but retains his role as the envoy/representative of Honour. Odium then can make Dalinar do anything, and Dalinar speaks in Honours name, so perhaps he would be able to force Dalinar, as Honour, to then release him. Honestly unclear.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ohh that's a tad scary - I like it! Sort of in the same way Ishar is a Bondsmith unbound, but seems to be quite happy being mad and just bonding people to stone etc., whereas Mr  T would use his mad levels of clever to actually influence the Cosmere with Dalinar's Bondsmith abilities (as you say, as an agent of Odium but bound to the Stormfather). 

Only reason I don't think that'll be the case is cus' Dalinar is planning on being the champion, which means he needs to die, and death = bye bye Stormfather bond! 

Could be something to do with Ishar? Using his Bondsmithing to free him once he's dealt with Dalinar?  

Edited by Hulaine
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, WeLoveMoash said:

Agreed with the above, that the loophole could be trying to force Dalinar to break his oath.

Only other one that comes to mind is some multi-step process where Dalinar loses, becomes a servant of Odium, but retains his role as the envoy/representative of Honour. Odium then can make Dalinar do anything, and Dalinar speaks in Honours name, so perhaps he would be able to force Dalinar, as Honour, to then release him. Honestly unclear.

Oof. That would be bad.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think here is where this particular Death Rattle comes into play. 

Quote

I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw. 

Not sure if a baby counts as a willing champion, but if it is agreed to be a contest 'to the death' then if Dalinar fails to kill it, does it mean he forfeits? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, DracostarA said:

I think here is where this particular Death Rattle comes into play. 

Not sure if a baby counts as a willing champion, but if it is agreed to be a contest 'to the death' then if Dalinar fails to kill it, does it mean he forfeits? 

That's particularly horrifying after seeing how revengeful Gavinor is. If Taravangian can choose the boy, I don't see Dalinar willingly killing him, and this death rattle becomes horrifying. Same if he can somehow choose Kaladins little brother. Team Dalinar seems to be thinking in terms of having to defeat someone spectacular, rather than team odium somehow winding up manipulating themselves into a champion that they don't want to kill.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Odium wins Dalinar serves him and presumably still is connected to Honor’s remnants. 

Dalinar can still free Odium from his bonds and Odium can order him to do it. He can also void the new agreement of staying for a thousand years. 

Dalinar could maybe avoid this by passing his bond and Connection on to someone else while he’s dying. Like how Ishar tried to use Bondsmith powers to take the bond from Dalinar, but voluntary. 

Or someone like Ishar could just rip it away from Dalinar to prevent Odium from getting it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think a baby or a child would likely work; 'willing' probably includes the capability of understanding what they are choosing to do (so trickery or 'I'll give you candy if you say these words that you don't understand' probably doesn't work). 

More I think about it, more it feels like it would have to do with the 'shared' clause between the two cases, or an implied-but-unspecified case (the 'tie' solution). The former feels more likely since the latter still requires being able to manipulate the results somehow, rather than winning regardless of the outcome (which seems to be what is implied here). The agreement is that Odium will be bound to the system, but what constitutes the 'system'? Could he, e.g. follow around an asteroid, or a piece of one of the planets?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the loophole is that while Odium cannot directly interfere in the greater cosmere his agents can.  His fused are too bound to the system to leave, but he could use other tools to meddle. 

I think win or lose Odium just switches his focus from war over Roshar to messing with other shards around the cosmere.  He has plenty of justification to mess with Scadrield in response to Thaidakar's interference on Roshar.  In the timeline Mistborn era 2 follows the first part of the Stormlight Archive, so it would make sense if the mysterious Trell antagonists of Mistborn 2 are Odium's foreign legion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I think the loophole is that while Odium cannot directly interfere in the greater cosmere his agents can.  His fused are too bound to the system to leave, but he could use other tools to meddle. 

I think win or lose Odium just switches his focus from war over Roshar to messing with other shards around the cosmere.  He has plenty of justification to mess with Scadrield in response to Thaidakar's interference on Roshar.  In the timeline Mistborn era 2 follows the first part of the Stormlight Archive, so it would make sense if the mysterious Trell antagonists of Mistborn 2 are Odium's foreign legion.

The timeline doesn’t work though. The Set were likely active for about a decade before Wax returns to Elendel. At this point in time Harmony is already sending/has sent Palm to Wax.

The timeskip is only 5/10 years, right? And the Era2 books have already covered about three years of that time.

Honestly, T is more likely to go after Nalthis. You want interference? How about that Shard Endowment who decided to send Nightblood over to Roshar... Pretty sure that exceeds anything Kell did.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually, there is a big assumption I was making: That there is no way for Odium to break his word. However, this isn't impossible, it's just really dangerous:

Quote

“I cannot break my word,” Odium said, the heat increasing. “I basically am incapable of it.”

“Basically?” Dalinar pressed. “What happens, Odium, if you break your word.”

“Then the contract is void, and I am in your power. Same, but reversed, if you break the contract. You would be in my power, and the restrictions Honor placed upon me—chaining me to the Rosharan system and preventing me from using my powers on most individuals—would be void. But that is not going to happen, and I am not going to break my word. Because if I did, it would create a hole in my soul—which would let Cultivation kill me.

“I am no fool, and you are a man of honor. We will both approach this contest in good faith, Dalinar. This isn’t some deal with a Voidbringer from your myths, where one tricks the other with some silly twist of language. A willing champion from each of us and a fight to the death. They will meet on the top of Urithiru. No tricks, no lies.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

Rayse would never risk it, because he is too concerned about dying. But...what about someone who didn't care that they died if they achieved their objective? We know that Taravangian is exactly that type of person based on what he's done; he wouldn't throw away his life, but he has no compunctions about losing it to accomplish what he wants to do. What if there was a way to break the contract in just the right way so that his death (or vulnerability) wouldn't matter? This feels like just the sort of thing where the identity of the Vessel is absolutely critical, something which might have set off Wit if he suspected Odium wasn't Rayse any longer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Seloun said:

Rayse would never risk it, because he is too concerned about dying. But...what about someone who didn't care that they died if they achieved their objective?

There is also the fact that while Cultivation surely would have killed R.Odium if given such an opening, she probably won't do it to T.Odium. So he could take this wound without the Vessel dying. IMHO, the narrative made us focus on and fear all the ways that Odium could be released through the actions of Honor's heir - but he is being imprisoned "by the powers of Honor _and Cultivation_." So, what happens if _Cultivation_ choses to remove her restraints? As she very well might, now?

Besides, T.Odium likely won't have any objections to uniting his Shard with other Shards, and Cultivation appears rather incautious around him, so it is fairly likely that he will kill the Vessel in the short order and meld their Shards into something with a new and even more terrifying Intent.

Speaking of Odium's champion being Gavinor, I find it all too likely. He is old enough to hate and to be counted as consciously willing, IMHO. And T. had been thinking a lot about how he loved having Dalinar at his side before his Ascencion, so he'd want to grab his soul as much as Rayse did.

Also, I wouldn't be so sure that Odium won't be able to send the Fused out in the Cosmere as his agents per this contract.  Which, BTW, doesn't seem to have any time limitation specified? Is it still a thousand years from the initial draft? Since provisions about Hoid still apply, even though Dalinar didn't reiterate them in the final wording.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gav has been my thought as well. The question of his “willingness”....it’s very hard to know. I think it would require Intent, which a child is absolutely capable of possessing. Whether this should be allowed is absolutely debatable, but from a technical and cosmere-magical perspective, I think it’s possible. Shallan was able to make oaths/truths at an age not much older than Gav for her first bond after all.

This also brings us to the “draw” scenario in my opinion. Dalinar won’t kill Gav, Gav can’t kill Dalinar. 

The bigger issue I have with this option is would Gav actually be willing? It depends on how much he knows. If he knew he had to fight Dalinar, then I think absolutely would not be willing. How much could he be tricked to join the enemy of the only people than the largest role models he has had lately. 

In contradiction to that, this is almost the quintessential dilemma of Dalinar and T’s philosophical differences - what cost is worth paying to help the many? This makes it feel poetic and foreshadowed. Although, it wouldn’t have to be Gav or a child, just someone innocent to meet this criteria. 

Edited by Jaconis
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Shlee said:

That's particularly horrifying after seeing how revengeful Gavinor is. If Taravangian can choose the boy, I don't see Dalinar willingly killing him, and this death rattle becomes horrifying. Same if he can somehow choose Kaladins little brother. Team Dalinar seems to be thinking in terms of having to defeat someone spectacular, rather than team odium somehow winding up manipulating themselves into a champion that they don't want to kill.

I don't think either condition would count as willing.  Willing implies a lack of coercion or trickery. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, phattemer said:

If Odium wins, he remains confined to the Roshar system. If Odium loses, he remains confined to the Roshar system. Wit has bet everything on this. So what happens if the result is a draw?

I would say that the status quo is maintained. However, this would mean that Dalinar will have died.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Bliev said:

Maybe if Odium wins, and Dalinar is "his" but still retains his bondsmith abilities, then he could force a new contract that released him. A game of chess, right? 

I do not think Dalinar could retain his connection to Honor and become a CS of Odium at the same time.  Leshwi says she can't even bond an ordinary spren.  Also death severed Szeth's bond with his Honorblade even though he did become a CS.

Edited by Karger
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

I do not think Dalinar could retain his connection to Honor and become a CS of Odium at the same time.  Leshwi says she can't even bond an ordinary spren.  Also death severed Szeth's bond with his Honorblade even though he did become a CS.

Good point. although perhaps with the bondsmith honorblade?

Hmm. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...