Rhythm of War Full Book Reactions

[Kingsdaughter613]

Just now, Tahva4815 said:

Oh interesting I'd never thought to do that. Is there a reading order for that out there somewhere?

I'll say that I did think the Wit epilogue was haunting and certainly left me feeling like everyone is way in over their head with T as Odium now. Watching Wit get got when he's been close to omnipotent up this point certainly got the point across.

Yeah, especially if you’ve seen him in the other books. Though Kell did get the jump on him once (not that that ended well for the Survivor but...) Actually, the two people we’ve seen trick Hoid are now antagonists of this series. Ooof.

 

No, there’s no reading order I know of. I usually do it as follows: Events in the square, then read those events in SH. End of TFE; read about the Well.

WoA with regular interludes regarding what’s going on in the Well. Read events at the Well in any order. Read end of WoA; read SH until it overlaps HoA.

Read events in HoA, then read the overlap in the SH. Read the con/theft all the way through. After Elend sees Leras, read the Ascension in SH. Continue HoA and read overlap in SH. Read second Ascension in any order. Read until the final fight ends in HoA, then overlap with SH. Go back to HoA for Ascension 3, then back to SH for the finale. Finish HoA; read SH epilogue.

It works pretty well.

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

But everyone, including us, assumed it was the former case and not the latter. We were wrong... but now we ARE dealing with a Shard in tune with its Vessel.

No. Taravangian is even less in tune with Odium than Rayse was. Rayse at least embraced passion. Taravangian is about as controlled and dispassionate as people get.

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

And it’s a new Vessel - which means T is still basically himself and mostly free to act.

Yes. And that adds an interesting variable. Rayse could wait for centuries if a plan required it. Taravangian can not.

1 hour ago, Tahva4815 said:

I'm speaking more out of universe. As a reader, I need my villains to be threatening. I need the heroes to falter.

They are.Yet the Singers were never the true enemy or even on their side. Odium could never contine a Singer vs. Humans war outside Roshar. The Fused cannot leave and Singers cannot even reproduce outside Roshar.
Honor's side is in deep, deep trouble and does not even know it.

5 hours ago, IcaroRibeiro said:

Brandon  what else can you make to surprise us above this? I can't think anything, but well... after reading ROW I learned to never underestimate him again 

Begin SA 5 with the assassination of Dalinar Kholin. For example. I don't think he will, but I am afraid Dalinar will have to die in SA 5. There is supposed to be a second series. We have seen Shardic transfers via Nightblood in the penultimate book of the first series.  I cannot see how you can get out of the level of direct Shardic clashes.
SA 5 confining Odium to Roshar again and the second series just be a mopping up action against the Ghostbloods would, frankly, be boring and disappointing. I cannot see how SA 5 could not have Odium being set free.

It looks to me like Rhythm of War really copied from The Final Empire. They think that they are winning, but are losing even worse unknowingly.

[Kingsdaughter613]

2 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

No. Taravangian is even less in tune with Odium than Rayse was. Rayse at least embraced passion. Taravangian is about as controlled and dispassionate as people get.

Yes. And that adds an interesting variable. Rayse could wait for centuries if a plan required it. Taravangian can not.

They are.Yet the Singers were never the true enemy or even on their side. Odium could never contine a Singer vs. Humans war outside Roshar. The Fused cannot leave and Singers cannot even reproduce outside Roshar.
Honor's side is in deep, deep trouble and does not even know it.

Begin SA 5 with the assassination of Dalinar Kholin. For example. I don't think he will, but I am afraid Dalinar will have to die in SA 5. There is supposed to be a second series. We have seen Shardic transfers via Nightblood in the penultimate book of the first series.  I cannot see how you can get out of the level of direct Shardic clashes.
SA 5 confining Odium to Roshar again and the second series just be a mopping up action against the Ghostbloods would, frankly, be boring and disappointing. I cannot see how SA 5 could not have Odium being set free.

It looks to me like Rhythm of War really copied from The Final Empire. They think that they are winning, but are losing even worse unknowingly.

The power itself acknowledges T as perfect. All indications are that they are in perfect tune. 
 

We’ve only ever seen T emotional OR dispassionate due to C’s boon/curse. Now he is both passionate and brilliant. Which is utterly terrifying...

[TiaOmi]

9 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Well, we are set up for a major setback

• the enemy is ahead in information (Dalinar would be horrified)
• weapons are ready
• a decisive battle is agreed upon
• we have a traitor, the worst traitor imaginable - a Shard

I am going to make a bold prediction. At the end of SA5 Cultivation will have switched sides and Odium will be free.

This is the reason why ROW was such a downer of a book for me - we got some nice lore and a few resolutions, but now with the Rayse-Taravangium switsch we have DOOM with capital letters hanging over our heroes, and it just gives me a really bad feeling. I left this book not as I left OB - knowing there are struggels ahead, but certain we can overcome; no, ROW left me more with feeling - oh great, so Tod is going to be free and everyone is doomed to die or do his bidding.

Because if he can trick Hoid, a person who's been surviving and conspiring agaist Odium for ages, then what chance does anybody have? Especially Dalinar, whom he outmanoeuvred at every turn.

 

11 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Kell is trapped on Scadrial, and somehow running a Cosmere spanning organization. Which is kind of awesome. But it would be impossible for him to keep an eye on every member. He couldn’t even do it ON Scadrial - remember what happened with Yeden? He has to trust his people to get things done properly, which we know doesn’t always happen.

I think a lot of us see Kelsier as the good guy of Mistborn - a saviour, the survivour, the hero of the downtrotten. I'll just wrap this in Spoilers, for anyone who didn't read Mistborn.
 

Spoiler

 

That's not who Kelsier is. He's not a hero. He didn't save the skaa in order for them to have a better future, he became a god in their eyes in order to piss Lord Ruler off and make his life harder. Kelsier is not a noble person who will sacrifice himself for others. He is self-serving and he is brutal. He is more in tune with Ruin than Preservation - one of the reasons he couldn't hold the power.

His ultimate desire is to survive, at any cost. Look how he tricked preservation. Lokk at his talk with Vin, at the end. He what's to be free, and I don't think he'd be particulary bothered about killing a few Heralds to achieve that end.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The power itself acknowledges T as perfect. All indications are that they are in perfect tune. 
 

We’ve only ever seen T emotional OR dispassionate due to C’s boon/curse. Now he is both passionate and brilliant. Which is utterly terrifying...

Throughout the books we have this theme of Taravangian being frustrated he cannot be compassionate and brilliant at the same time. Now he can be both. I also think this time the power found an appropriate Vessel.

 

 

[Kaid]

On 11/17/2020 at 2:41 AM, Gyirin said:

What did you think of Adolin's arc?

I saw Daniel Greene's review and he says Adolin's story felt a bit convenient in this book.

I saw it coming from a mile away. The whole ‘deadeye Spren don’t talk’ thing was a dead giveaway to me as soon as he talked about having a trial that she would end up speaking. Did seem mighty convenient that some random inkspren would bring up the idea to use her as a witness and neither him or shallan would think to use his partnership with Maya as an argument at all. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

21 minutes ago, TiaOmi said:

This is the reason why ROW was such a downer of a book for me - we got some nice lore and a few resolutions, but now with the Rayse-Taravangium switsch we have DOOM with capital letters hanging over our heroes, and it just gives me a really bad feeling. I left this book not as I left OB - knowing there are struggels ahead, but certain we can overcome; no, ROW left me more with feeling - oh great, so Tod is going to be free and everyone is doomed to die or do his bidding.

Because if he can trick Hoid, a person who's been surviving and conspiring agaist Odium for ages, then what chance does anybody have? Especially Dalinar, whom he outmanoeuvred at every turn.

 

I think a lot of us see Kelsier as the good guy of Mistborn - a saviour, the survivour, the hero of the downtrotten. I'll just wrap this in Spoilers, for anyone who didn't read Mistborn.
 

  Hide contents

 

That's not who Kelsier is. He's not a hero. He didn't save the skaa in order for them to have a better future, he became a god in their eyes in order to piss Lord Ruler off and make his life harder. Kelsier is not a noble person who will sacrifice himself for others. He is self-serving and he is brutal. He is more in tune with Ruin than Preservation - one of the reasons he couldn't hold the power.

His ultimate desire is to survive, at any cost. Look how he tricked preservation. Lokk at his talk with Vin, at the end. He what's to be free, and I don't think he'd be particulary bothered about killing a few Heralds to achieve that end.

 

 

 

Throughout the books we have this theme of Taravangian being frustrated he cannot be compassionate and brilliant at the same time. Now he can be both. I also think this time the power found an appropriate Vessel.

 

 

Spoilers for Mistborn:

Spoiler

That’s oversimplified. Yes, he acts for himself, but he also acts for others. Being more of Ruin isn’t a bad thing per se. and he can hardly help the fact that he was born a psychopath, which he does focus and control.

Twice in SH he showed himself willing to sacrifice himself for others:

once when he stabbed Elend so Vin would keep Ruin entrapped - which also meant Kell would remain trapped forever. Kell, who hates being trapped, was willing to remain imprisoned forever to protect his world. 

The Second was when he tricked Ruin, fully expecting to be killed. Yes, he enjoyed getting one over his enemy - but who wouldn’t? That isn’t why he did it; he did it for Vin and his world.

As for being intent on surviving... let’s say Intent. He was given that Command at the Pits, and again by Preservation. I’m not sure how much of a choice that is for him. There’s an unnatural element to it.

Most people have many reasons for doing what they do. Kell wanted revenge, he wanted to one up TLR and he wanted to prove a point. But he ALSO wanted to bring about Mare’s dream and to see the Skaa free. And he also wanted to do something Mare would be proud of. And he wanted to leave a legacy.
 

This list could go on forever, but I’m pretty sure you get the point. Humans rarely have one reason for acting. Kell does things for himself, but he also does it for others. That doesn’t make him evil; it makes him human.
 

I totally agree Kell would trap a Herald in a gem. But he wouldn’t be okay with the GBs randomly murdering a bunch of porters. However, it’s very likely that the GBs think he would be.

 

[+Oltux72]

41 minutes ago, TiaOmi said:

This is the reason why ROW was such a downer of a book for me - we got some nice lore and a few resolutions, but now with the Rayse-Taravangium switsch we have DOOM with capital letters hanging over our heroes, and it just gives me a really bad feeling.

No, I am sorry, but I have to disagree. DEFEAT is hanging over them. But not DOOM.

Doom would be a cool Shard, by the way.

Rayse really wanted to exterminate. Taravangian, for now at least, wants to rule. Surrender and negotiation are again realistic options.

41 minutes ago, TiaOmi said:

I think a lot of us see Kelsier as the good guy of Mistborn - a saviour, the survivour, the hero of the downtrotten. I'll just wrap this in Spoilers, for anyone who didn't read Mistborn.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

That's not who Kelsier is. He's not a hero. He didn't save the skaa in order for them to have a better future, he became a god in their eyes in order to piss Lord Ruler off and make his life harder. Kelsier is not a noble person who will sacrifice himself for others. He is self-serving and he is brutal. He is more in tune with Ruin than Preservation - one of the reasons he couldn't hold the power.

His ultimate desire is to survive, at any cost. Look how he tricked preservation. Lokk at his talk with Vin, at the end. He what's to be free, and I don't think he'd be particulary bothered about killing a few Heralds to achieve that end.

 

Spoiler

He was ready to die for the revolution. He was a hero. He was and is no saint, but that was not the issue.
Nor is Preservation good and Ruin bad. Change is necessary. Now, if I had to choose one and only one, it would be Preservation, but that is a choice that means you are already in deep trouble.

 

16 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Spoilers for Mistborn:

  Hide contents

I totally agree Kell would trap a Herald in a gem.

 

So would Jasnah. And, presumably, Dalinar. And Hoid would see a whole world burn. Singling out Kelsier is plainly unfair.
And, to be blunt, you really cannot let somebody like Kaladin, who would not, rule. It takes a certain ruthlessness.

 

[ALAKA]

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Spoilers for Mistborn:

  Hide contents

This list could go on forever, but I’m pretty sure you get the point. Humans rarely have one reason for acting. Kell does things for himself, but he also does it for others. That doesn’t make him evil; it makes him human.

 

In fact (SH Spoiler

Spoiler

Vin to Kelsier:

"...you need to know, you need to ask. How much of what you've done was about love, and how much was about proving something? That you hadn't been betrayed, bested, beaten? Can you answer honestly Kelsier?"

He met her eyes, and saw the implicit question.

How much was about us? it asked. And how much was about you?

"I don't know," he said to her.

 

 

Edited November 20, 2020 by ALAKA

[Kaid]

On 11/18/2020 at 3:32 PM, robardin said:

 

• Just how was it that the Deepest Ones could still do the Cohesion thing to enter Urithiru?
  • It was key to getting Raboniel into the central pillar, but neither Masked Ones nor the Heavenly Ones could...?
  • They mentioned how "the ancient protections have not been maintained" and how "the ralkalest has fallen from the walls of the tunnel below", as if ancient Radiants had had to rely on aluminum walls to defend against this particular Fused Surge
  • But then, why were the Deepest Ones trapped in stone when Sibling came back to life and Navani un-reversed the polarity on the Voidlight Surgebinding Shield?

I think it’s because the towers defenses were flushed of void light they were restored to work against void light meaning it just full stopped their powers from working. If a radiant had been in the rock when the tower defenses turned against them I could imagine they would be stuck within the rock as well. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

46 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

No, I am sorry, but I have to disagree. DEFEAT is hanging over them. But not DOOM.

Doom would be a cool Shard, by the way.

Rayse really wanted to exterminate. Taravangian, for now at least, wants to rule. Surrender and negotiation are again realistic options.

  Hide contents

He was ready to die for the revolution. He was a hero. He was and is no saint, but that was not the issue.
Nor is Preservation good and Ruin bad. Change is necessary. Now, if I had to choose one and only one, it would be Preservation, but that is a choice that means you are already in deep trouble.

 

So would Jasnah. And, presumably, Dalinar. And Hoid would see a whole world burn. Singling out Kelsier is plainly unfair.
And, to be blunt, you really cannot let somebody like Kaladin, who would not, rule. It takes a certain ruthlessness.

 

I’ve no doubt they would. Did I say I had an issue with it? My whole point was that Kell is human and, like all humans, has multiple reasons for his actions. He doesn’t need to be perfectly selfless to be a hero. Very few people are.
 

 

33 minutes ago, ALAKA said:

In fact (SH Spoiler

  Hide contents

Vin to Kelsier:

"...you need to know, you need to ask. How much of what you've done was about love, and how much was about proving something? That you hadn't been betrayed, bested, beaten? Can you answe honestly Kelsier?"

 

 

It’s a question he needs to ask. But it’s one we ALL need to ask. Very few people are completely selfless. And even fewer actions are.
Arguably, we do good things because it makes us feel good. Or because we’re raised to do so and would feel bad if we didn’t. Or because of the benefits we receive socially.

Like every other human being, Kell needs to ask himself the hard questions because it’s the only way he’ll grow. The only real answer to that question IS ‘I don’t know.’

And then move forward, and continue to strive for greater heights.

[krmdzinklmfl]

Two reactions to this book:

I want to see more of Raboniel.

The new cough that everyone's been getting has been cooked up by Cultivation, and has permanently done something to the humans on Roshar. (unless it's a shoehorned reference to COVID, in very poor taste)

[+Oltux72]

48 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I’ve no doubt they would. Did I say I had an issue with it? My whole point was that Kell is human and, like all humans, has multiple reasons for his actions. He doesn’t need to be perfectly selfless to be a hero. Very few people are.

We agree. Sorry.

48 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

It’s a question he needs to ask. But it’s one we ALL need to ask.

Well, no. You don't have to ask this. Judging yourself by your actions alone is a valid way to look at yourself. Maybe a bit limited.

The point would be to answer the question honestly, if you ask it.

 

[Squirtodyle]

10 minutes ago, krmdzinklmfl said:

Two reactions to this book:

I want to see more of Raboniel.

The new cough that everyone's been getting has been cooked up by Cultivation, and has permanently done something to the humans on Roshar. (unless it's a shoehorned reference to COVID, in very poor taste)

I believe the readthrough of the preview chapters had the two people doing it mention that the plague had been a thing in the earliest drafts and that it was just a sincerely unfortunate coincidence that so much of the book ended up vaguely echoing COVID.

[Kingsdaughter613]

36 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

We agree. Sorry.

Well, no. You don't have to ask this. Judging yourself by your actions alone is a valid way to look at yourself. Maybe a bit limited.

The point would be to answer the question honestly, if you ask it.

 

Looking honestly at your motivations is a way to grow, so I do think it is a worthy question to ask. But I suppose that’s a personal preference.

[Shakakakakaka]

43 minutes ago, krmdzinklmfl said:

The new cough that everyone's been getting has been cooked up by Cultivation, and has permanently done something to the humans on Roshar. (unless it's a shoehorned reference to COVID, in very poor taste)

The new cough is the common cold. Not native to Roshar, but brought by the 17th Sharders from Ishik's interlude in Way of Kings

[+robardin]

2 hours ago, Kaid said:

I think it’s because the towers defenses were flushed of void light they were restored to work against void light meaning it just full stopped their powers from working. If a radiant had been in the rock when the tower defenses turned against them I could imagine they would be stuck within the rock as well. 

Ah that makes sense. But they didn't fall unconscious the way that the Fused did, and the way that the Radiants in the tower did when the shield got inverted.

Which would still raise the question, though: why were they different? I dunno. Maybe they are of a "higher Ideal" than all the other Fused were, similar to how Kaladin was able to stay conscious, and it was thought by Raboniel that Jasnah, Shallan, and Dalinar might also have done?

[+Oltux72]

5 minutes ago, robardin said:

Which would still raise the question, though: why were they different?

The stones seem to have a long memory. Did the rock remember the Dawnsingers?

[+robardin]

4 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

The stones seem to have a long memory. Did the rock remember the Dawnsingers?

Good angle. But one i'd have thought they'd know about - like Raboniel or one of the Deepest Ones themselves saying "the Voidlight barrier would not affect the Deepest Ones, because the stones remember" (which as readers we wouldn't understand until later, when Venli talks to the stones), leaving the fallen plates of ralkalest as the Radiant line of defense that has failed.

(I mean that could totally still be it, but it'd have been nice to add that one semi-expository sentence somewhere to give that indicator to us as readers.)

Edited November 20, 2020 by robardin

[+Oltux72]

3 minutes ago, robardin said:

Good angle. But one i'd have thought they'd know about - like Raboniel or one of the Deepest Ones themselves saying "the Voidlight barrier would not affect the Deepest Ones, because the stones remember"

Why? The Fused may be of the opinion that everybody would know and there's no need to mention it.

3 minutes ago, robardin said:

(which as readers we wouldn't understand until later, when Venli talks to the stones), leaving the fallen plates of ralkalest as the Radiant line of defense that has failed.

Raising the question why the Knights Radiant installed them. Why a second line of defense only there? It looks like they knew that the rock was a weakness.

[+robardin]

9 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Why? The Fused may be of the opinion that everybody would know and there's no need to mention it.

Raising the question why the Knights Radiant installed them. Why a second line of defense only there? It looks like they knew that the rock was a weakness.

No, I agree that the signs point to there being something special about the Deepest Ones still being able to swim up to Urithiru even with the "Voidlight shield" up.

I guess you're right, in-world they (Raboniel and the Deepest Ones themselves) wouldn't naturally say something like that if they'd known about it for millenia, except when they noted "the ancient protections have not been maintained, the ralkalest has fallen from the walls of the tunnel (the fools!)" and "These new Radiants know nothing!"

Edited November 20, 2020 by robardin

[TiaOmi]

3 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Spoilers for Mistborn:

  Hide contents

This list could go on forever, but I’m pretty sure you get the point. Humans rarely have one reason for acting. Kell does things for himself, but he also does it for others. That doesn’t make him evil; it makes him human.

 

I totally agree Kell would trap a Herald in a gem. But he wouldn’t be okay with the GBs randomly murdering a bunch of porters. However, it’s very likely that the GBs think he would be.

 

I think you misunderstand, I'm not saying he's is evil.

Spoiler

 

Kelsier is probably my favourite Mistborn character because he's so flawed and not really good but not evil either. He's a brilliantly written person, he's so human and his story is wonderful. I can't wait to get more.

What I am saying is that he's selfish and capable of acting in cold blod in order to get what he wants. I also don't think his desires to save comes from a place of "for the people", more out of "screw those in power".
The end might be the same (liberated Skaa, controled Ruin), but the means to achieve it will be different. So he can be relied upon to do things we percieve as evil acts, in order to rech his ultimate goal.

 

So I don't believe you can say - oh, maybe he didn't know or approve of what his GB minios are doing to the Heralds, he's a good guy, he wouldn't do it, it's all Mraize.
I think he'd totaly be ok with murdering a bunch of people if he was sure that they deserved it and it advances his goal.

 

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

  Hide contents

He was ready to die for the revolution. He was a hero. He was and is no saint, but that was not the issue.
Nor is Preservation good and Ruin bad. Change is necessary. Now, if I had to choose one and only one, it would be Preservation, but that is a choice that means you are already in deep trouble.

 

So would Jasnah. And, presumably, Dalinar. And Hoid would see a whole world burn. Singling out Kelsier is plainly unfair.
And, to be blunt, you really cannot let somebody like Kaladin, who would not, rule. It takes a certain ruthlessness.

 

Ah man, you are all really big Kelsier fans, yes?

Spoiler

He was ready to die for a revolution after making himself a god in the eyes of the skaa. He gave them hope, true, but did he do it for the skaa or against the Lord Ruler? And then, after dying, he somehow became a similar mythological figure on another continent! I don't think this is a person you can rely upon to do the right thing. I think you can count on him to do what he thinks is right - which makes him, yes, human.

Yes, you're right - a lot of other character are the same, none of them are black and white, that is why we love Snaderson's writing. I'm commenting about him not being "the force of good" because I see a lot of comments in diverse places how Kelsier being behind the GB could be a good thing, and good for Roshar. I don't agree with that. I think it will be exciting, but not necessarily a good thing from the SA point of view.

 

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

No, I am sorry, but I have to disagree. DEFEAT is hanging over them. But not DOOM.

Doom would be a cool Shard, by the way.

Rayse really wanted to exterminate. Taravangian, for now at least, wants to rule. Surrender and negotiation are again realistic options.

I see more doom and defeat combined. Doomfeat?

Yes, Rayse wanted to win - however, he wanted to use the humans for his war against all others and not just anihilate them completely. he had other goals where the humans would serve him.

Tod wants to "save everyone". That makes me personally extremely uncomfortable and in light of what happened in the Epilogue leaves me with a sense of doom - save how? save why? from whom? and, who does he consider "everyone" to be? only his people? all of Roshar? all of humanity?

He's already Odium, so he can stop the war, no? Wouldn't that save everyone?

This is a man who created hospitals so he can murder people in cold blood for the greater good. Somehow I don't think his definition of "save everyone" is going to be to our liking.

 

[Kingsdaughter613]

12 minutes ago, TiaOmi said:

I think you misunderstand, I'm not saying he's is evil.

  Hide contents

 

Kelsier is probably my favourite Mistborn character because he's so flawed and not really good but not evil either. He's a brilliantly written person, he's so human and his story is wonderful. I can't wait to get more.

What I am saying is that he's selfish and capable of acting in cold blod in order to get what he wants. I also don't think his desires to save comes from a place of "for the people", more out of "screw those in power".
The end might be the same (liberated Skaa, controled Ruin), but the means to achieve it will be different. So he can be relied upon to do things we percieve as evil acts, in order to rech his ultimate goal.

 

So I don't believe you can say - oh, maybe he didn't know or approve of what his GB minios are doing to the Heralds, he's a good guy, he wouldn't do it, it's all Mraize.
I think he'd totaly be ok with murdering a bunch of people if he was sure that they deserved it and it advances his goal.

 

Ah man, you are all really big Kelsier fans, yes?

  Hide contents

He was ready to die for a revolution after making himself a god in the eyes of the skaa. He gave them hope, true, but did he do it for the skaa or against the Lord Ruler? And then, after dying, he somehow became a similar mythological figure on another continent! I don't think this is a person you can rely upon to do the right thing. I think you can count on him to do what he thinks is right - which makes him, yes, human.

Yes, you're right - a lot of other character are the same, none of them are black and white, that is why we love Snaderson's writing. I'm commenting about him not being "the force of good" because I see a lot of comments in diverse places how Kelsier being behind the GB could be a good thing, and good for Roshar. I don't agree with that. I think it will be exciting, but not necessarily a good thing from the SA point of view.

 

I see more doom and defeat combined. Doomfeat?

Yes, Rayse wanted to win - however, he wanted to use the humans for his war against all others and not just anihilate them completely. he had other goals where the humans would serve him.

Tod wants to "save everyone". That makes me personally extremely uncomfortable and in light of what happened in the Epilogue leaves me with a sense of doom - save how? save why? from whom? and, who does he consider "everyone" to be? only his people? all of Roshar? all of humanity?

He's already Odium, so he can stop the war, no? Wouldn't that save everyone?

This is a man who created hospitals so he can murder people in cold blood for the greater good. Somehow I don't think his definition of "save everyone" is going to be to our liking.

 

Kell would totally kill/imprison a Herald. That’s not even a question.

But he wouldn’t approve of how Mraize tried to recruit Shallan, because it’s exactly what Kell deliberately did NOT do with Vin. He’d realize it would backfire and would consider Mraize a fool for going about things as he did.

He also wouldn’t kill a bunch of porters. He generally doesn’t try to kill menial workers going about their lives. Cause massive indirect trouble? Oh yeah. But outright murdering them would not sit well with him.

Which is why, outside of it being in the text, I’m pretty sure he’s not directly controlling the GBs on Roshar. Proxy is never as good as personal.

[Singer]

3 hours ago, krmdzinklmfl said:

Two reactions to this book:

I want to see more of Raboniel.

The new cough that everyone's been getting has been cooked up by Cultivation, and has permanently done something to the humans on Roshar. (unless it's a shoehorned reference to COVID, in very poor taste)

It's referenced in earlier books, so no, it isn't a covid reference. Worldhoppers just brought the common cold to Roshar. You see the first reference to this in, like, WoR I think.

[Use the Falchion]

Finished the book about 30 minutes ago! And I have a LOT of conflicting feelings. Overall, I really enjoyed the book, as I do with most Sanderson books. But I didn't feel as...invested in the book as I do with most Sanderson books, if that makes sense. Like, with Oathbringer I was there for it all. I felt the highest highs and the lowest lows there. Here, while some reviews said that it had even higher highs and lower lows...I didn't feel it. Like, I didn't feel like the Sibling was in danger because somewhere in my heart I knew we'd have three Bondsmiths. (And that reveal of the Sibling using the spanreed was quite predictable imo. Not bad, just predictable.) It didn't make sense for Brandon to introduce a new character just to kill them off. 

I enjoyed Navani's science exploration, even if it wasn't a turn I was expecting in this book. And I loved Kaladin's "Die Hard" arc as well as his "Therapy-no-Jutsu" arc. Overall I just found myself loving the feeling of being immersed in Roshar again. I was here for the journey. And that was enough for me. There are some other minor issues nitpicks I have, but they aren't the fault of the book and mostly related to my pride and theories. (The Jasnadin ship sinks like the Titanic, but the Kaladin/Leshwi ship rises like the Fourth Bridge!)

Part 3 and Part 5 were probably my favorite, and I have so many questions about Shallan's past timeline, what's going to happen with Adolin, and that storming epilogue, but overall the wait was worth it. This book will split fans further, but I don't think that's a bad thing.

At the end of the day, I'm not sure how I place this book just yet. It's very topical and timely, hopeful, and has that Sanderson standard of quality. But it also focused a lot on things like the technology - which I'm not a giant fan of - at the expense of maybe a few more chapters with Dalinar and Shallan's stories. This book is good, but right now, I'm not sure I'd rank it as "the best" or "my favorite." I'll give it a reread before I make that decision my "official" one though. 

[Govir]

I have not actually finished this book, but I’m in Part 5 now and wanted to write this down in public, because I finally have a theory about it. I think the Windrunner 4th ideal is along the lines of “I will accept that I cannot protect everyone.” I do think I remember this being theorized before, but it never really stuck with me until right now (as I read Teft’s first POV in Part 5). Welp, 10% to go (probably less, because of the Ars Arcanum). See you on the flip side.

Edit a few weeks later: apparently this was the prevailing theory for the 4th oath and I either actually never came across it (unlikely) or I did a real good job of forgetting about while I read (more likely).

Edited December 21, 2020 by Govir