Odium, Dawnshards and the Death of Gods

[Mage_914]

So the Dawnshard novella just recently came out and it had some seriously juicy lore tidbits for all of us to chew on. I'm going to be putting my interpretation of it here along with what I think is a probable timeline of events involving the Dawnshards.

 

Nature of the Dawnshards

So Adonalsium gave four primal Commands that spawned the Dawnshards and created the Cosmere. We know that one of them is Change and that together all four were used to Shatter God himself. I'm thinking these Commands are similar to the Christian notion of "Let there be light" while the resulting Dawnshards are a sort of imprint on the world left by the Commands. If God turning on the lights was a boot, the Dawnshard is a boot print. I believe these four Commands were Change, Survive, Unite and Distinguish. I don't know if these are the actual names of the Dawnshards (I would be surprised if Distinguish was 100% correct) but the gist of it remains the same. These four are two sets of two that, while not exactly opposite, are in some respects opposed. None are negative or positive, they simply are. Change and Survive are opposed as survival requires a certain amount of stasis. Unite and Distinguish are opposed as Distinguish implies individuality and unity implies a certain common ground.

 

The Shattering of Adonalsium

I believe that at one point they were all combined into a single weapon that was used to Shatter Adonalsium and that Hoid was the one who actually holding the thing when it all went down, as is referenced by Hoid being both "Topaz" as well as the "Bearer of the First Gem" as well as the WoB's that we have stating that the weapon used to kill Adonalsium is drained and inoperable and that Hoid's immortality is derived from it. It's drained because the Dawnshards were removed from it and Hoid's immortality comes from Survive. From Nikli's line in the novella we know that wielding a Dawnshard makes "Demands on a level that no person could ever manage alone..." Thus I believe that while Hoid was the one actually pulling the trigger, there was another group bracing and bolstering him, probably a group of 16, aka the Shardic Vessels. Think the ending scene from Guardians of the Galaxy. Starlord got his hands on the Infinity Stone but he couldn't use it until they all united their strength by using the secret move "Power of Friendship" :). I think that's what happened here only more premeditated God-murder and less dance off.

 

Scattering of the Dawnshards

My next bit of wild speculation is that I believe that when Adonalsium was Shattered, the Dawnshards contained in the weapon were scattered to four of the Vessels. Which Vessels got chosen probably had to deal with the specific theme of each Shard of Adonalsium. Cultivation and Ruin, for instance, both fit squarely in the Change quadrant. Here's how I think the Shards fall into the quadrants.

Change - Ruin, Cultivation, Endowment

Survive - Preservation

Unite - Honor, Devotion, Dominion

Distinguish - Odium, Autonomy, Ambition

Ruin is Change through destruction. Cultivation is Change through improvement. Endowment is Change through transfer. Preservation is Survival through stasis. Honor is Unity through shared ethics. Devotion is Unity through love. Dominion is Unity through law and government. Distinguish is all about individuality (which is why I was having trouble with the word Distinguish. Individuality is not a verb!!!). This would mean the Odium is individuality through emotion, Autonomy is individuality through isolation and Ambition is individuality through accomplishment.

I believe that Hoid either got the Survive Dawnshard or had it before the Shattering and the it somehow ended up with Preservation after everything was said and done. It is currently hidden on Scadrial somewhere. Honor got the Unity Dawnshard and took it with him to Roshar. I'm not sure who ended up with the Change Dawnshard but they must have given it up or had it taken from them somehow, probably the former, and it was then carried to Roshar and hidden in the cavern in Akinah. This leaves Distinguish, which I believe fell into Autonomy's hands. It's use might explain her weird avatar situation, granting herself an excess of individuality. She gave it to Odium to use in killing Devotion, Dominion and Ambition. This is how he wiped the floor with them without breaking a sweat, even in a two on one fight. This is also probably why Brandon was cagey about whether Bavadin helped Odium splinter D&D. She didn't really help commit the murder, she just handed the murderer a gun at some point.

 

Dawnshard Battle on Roshar

After Odium got done taking out D&D and Ambition, he set his sights on Honor and Cultivation. Big problem here though. Honor had a Dawnshard. I don't think he was actively using it though. It's my guess that there was some sort of agreement among the Vessels to not wield both a Shard and a Dawnshard at once. It would upset the balance of power too much. This is why Survive is being stored away on Scadrial, why Change was sort of floating around until it ended up in Aimia and why Honor was letting Ishar hang on to Unite, which he used to bind the surgebinders with oaths and create the Oathpact. But Odium broke the rules and so Honor took his Unite Dawnshard back to kick some butt. The problem for Honor was that Odium is just insanely more practiced and skilled in Shard on Shard combat at this point and was just more skilled with using a Dawnshard in general. Sure they both had guns but one has a seasoned fighter and the other was an amateur. Regardless Honor was enough of a threat with his Dawnshard that Odium had to take things slow and be cautious. This is also probably why Cultivation stayed out of this for the most part. She wasn't armed.

Eventually Odium gets the upper hand and slips in a killing blow but Honor leaves his cognitive shadow, along with the Dawnshard that it's carrying, behind and has it fuse with the Stormfather. This now means that any Bondsmith that bonds to the Stormfather now has access to a Dawnshard as well as the Shard of Honor relative to how closely bonded they are with the Stormfather. The more oaths they say, the closer they get to becoming the Vessel of Honor and attaining the full power of the Dawnshard of Unity. This is probably how Melishi was able to bind the Singers into slaveform. This is probably also how Dalinar is able to Unite the realms. It also occurs to me that this might be a good explanation for why the Recreance happened. Honor was dying and as he was dying he gave his Dawnshard to the Bondsmiths. Since the Dawnshard was presumably what destroyed Ashyn people might have been worried about misusing that power. It would be like the President showing up to your house one day at random, mortally wounded, screamed something about the end of the world and gave you the nuclear launch codes before dying on your couch. Anybody would be freaked out, let alone the descendants of the people who once blew up a planet. They then immediately have their fears validated when Melishi, the new Dawnshard of Unity, uses his newfound power to lobotomize an entire sapient species. Yeah, I can see why they were concerned.

 

Future of the Dawnshards

It is my current opinion that at some point in a future book, Dalinar will say his fifth oath and bond fully to the Stormfather. This will cause him to ascend to become the Vessel of Honor and also grant him full access to the Unity Dawnshard. This time however the fight against Odium will go differently because Odium won't be facing kind old Tanavast. He'll be facing the Blackthorn. At that point Dalinar either keeps the Dawnshard or gives it up, either one seems plausible. The Change Dawnshard stays with Rysn for now but that could change in the future depending on how things play out. The Survive Dawnshard is probably being held by Kelsier currently, both because Kelsier is probably the most realmatically aware Scadrian, and thus probably knows all about Dawnshards and realizes that one is on Scadrial, but also because it fits thematically. Kelsier The Survivor, who fought gods and won, gets a god slaying weapon called Survive? It's freaking perfect. I honestly don't know what happens to the Distinguish Dawnshard. It honestly comes down to how the fight with Odium actually plays out. I doubt it can ever be truly destroyed but it might get lost somehow or simply gifted to someone responsible.

 

Some Extra Reasoning Tidbits

- I used Survive as one of the Dawnshards because Kelsier mentions hearing a voice tell him to Survive within the Pits and because it fits as a nice clean opposing force to Change. We also know a powerful weapon is hidden on Scadrial.

- I used Unite because Dalinar's "I am Unity" moment as well as several mentions of Unity in Elantris in regards to Devotion and Dominions religions. There's also mentions of a Dawnshard that binds things, which I believe is Unite.

- Distinguish (still feel like that's not a perfect word) is in there because I needed something to oppose Unity that fit for the remaining three Shards. Individuality seems to fit in my opinion.

- As for why Honor mentioned that they won't have access to the Dawnshards, I have no idea. There's already one confirmed to be on the planet and if my theory is right there's another two. Maybe he's saying they can't use them because of the oaths? That seems to be the original purpose of Radiant oaths, to keep the people who could potentially misuse a Dawnshard in check.

- I believe the one Dawnshard that is different from the other, as mentioned in a WoB, is the Survive Dawnshard as it's on Scadrial and the other three are on Roshar.

- The Shard of Adonalsium that is loosely associated with wisdom and "just want's to survive" is probably in the Survive quadrant.

- It seems to me from the line in the novella about Rysn not being able to use the power and the restriction in their contract about becoming a surgebinder suggests that the Dawnshard requires some sort of magic already present in the wielder in order to make it work. This suggests to me that the Dawnshard is less of a powerful spell and more of an amplifier of other magics, making them far more powerful and versatile. This is probably due to the problem that Nikli mentions about needing the breadth of understanding equivalent to a deity. A Dawnshard in a Soother's hands might let them manipulate the minds of everyone on a whole planet because the Soother's powers are being used as a framework in place of that required understanding. A Soother with Dawnshard could probably not manipulate the laws of physics to the same extent as he could manipulate emotions. Maybe a little, but not to the same apocalyptic degree that a Shardic Vessel could.

- We know that Hoid derives his immortality from the weapon that killed Adonalsium and we know that he's been cursed to never harm another living thing. I believe that both of those come from the Survive Dawnshard. He survives through anything, including death, because of the residual influence of the Dawnshard. He also can't kill or maim because that's antithetical to the concept of survival.

 

What are your guy's thoughts on all of this? Let's discuss.

 

[Legobinder]

44 minutes ago, Mage_914 said:

Change - Ruin, Cultivation, Endowment

Survive - Preservation

Unite - Honor, Devotion, Dominion

Distinguish - Odium, Autonomy, Ambition

After listening to Shardcast I like the idea of Preservation being in the change category. But it's just my opinion. Also there should be a better word than Distinguish maybe Identity?

And where do you think the Unity dawnshard is? Change was in the mural but do you think Unity is in the same mural or somewhere else?

[Leuthie]

The Commands are part of the breadth of understanding required to do extremely complicated magics (surgebinding):

"The most powerful forms of Surgebinding transcend mortal understanding," Nikli said. "All their greatest applications require Intent and a Command. Demands on a level no person could ever manage alone. To make such Commands, on must have the reasoning - the breadth of understanding - of a deity. And so, the Dawnshards. The four primal Commands that created all things."

The other part of the understanding required is Intent.

What does this all mean?

To create a planet, you need an almost complete understanding of physics, "manufacturing", geology, etc. To create a planet with life, you need even more understanding. To create a planet with sentient life, you need even more. Intent helps you come up with ideas. A god will have a huge and overpowering Intent, evidenced by the way Shards work. This Intent would provide the knowledge required to come up with things to do with power. Commands provide the knowledge of what to do to realize the Intent.

I say all this to try to squash the idea that a Command is some kind of amplifier. It's knowledge. It's a (probably large) chunk of Spirit Web that has grafted onto Rysn and is peripherally accessible as a source of the knowledge required to Change things. It has spoken to her from a distance, and has been a part of her own thoughts. Because it's such a large chunk of Investiture (which is the stuff of a Spirit Web), it has given her perception abilities similar to what we've seen as a result of Heightenings on Nalthis. This has nothing to do with Endowment or its holder. This is simply the result of having more "stuff" in your Spirit Web. Breaths are the same "stuff" and more of them results in the same perception changes that Rysn was experiencing. I say this to divorce the idea that Endowment has some special connection to Commands beyond the Shard being ripped off of Adonalsium by them.

If a Dawnshard became a Soother, the Soother would still be limited by their access to Investiture. However, the Soother might have Savant abilities without the drawbacks, might be able to specifically sooth a specific individual in a specific way without even needing the experience to do so. That Soother would not be able to sooth a whole planet without access to more Investiture than Allomancy provides. There wouldn't be huge issues with a Dawnshard being an Allomancer since Allomancy doesn't provide direct access to raw Investiture.

A Nahel Bond, on the other hand, would probably be catastrophic. Direct access to raw Investiture, direct connection to raw Intent. Nahel Bonds require sticking to Oaths/Ideals, so as long as you aren't a Dustbringer, you probably couldn't cause too much damage. Then again, humans and spren being what they are, the Oaths can vary widely.

This might be the primary reason why the Sleepless don't want Rysn to for a bond. I'm also guessing that she would be more visible as a Dawnshard if she was Invested. Her primary goal is to be hidden.

TL;DR: Dawnshards aren't amplifiers, they're knowledge.

[Roocifer]

2 hours ago, Mage_914 said:

Dawnshard Battle on Roshar

After Odium got done taking out D&D and Ambition, he set his sights on Honor and Cultivation. Big problem here though. Honor had a Dawnshard. I don't think he was actively using it though. It's my guess that there was some sort of agreement among the Vessels to not wield both a Shard and a Dawnshard at once.

 

I was under the impression that man brought multiple Dawnshards with them from Ashyn. There were not already Dawnshards on Roshar. I assumed that the power of the Dawnshards is what had destroyed Ashyn, causing them to be refugees. I think we also know already that Ishar the Herald held one of the Dawnshards (which is what he used to create the Oathpact).

[Mage_914]

5 hours ago, Legobinder said:

After listening to Shardcast I like the idea of Preservation being in the change category. But it's just my opinion. Also there should be a better word than Distinguish maybe Identity?

And where do you think the Unity dawnshard is? Change was in the mural but do you think Unity is in the same mural or somewhere else?

I am totally open to new words here. I mentioned in the post that I don't like the word Distinguish either, but I couldn't think of a better one.

As for the location of Unity I actually mentioned in the post that I think that the Unity Dawnshard is with the Stormfather. He probably either isn't entirely aware of it or is simply hiding the fact from Dalinar. Both would make a certain amount of sense. Weird stuff happens to spren's memories when they cross over to bond, although he was already presumably mostly in the Physical Realm so I imagine the effects were lessened. He could just straight up have forgotten about Dawnshards. I think the endgame here is to have Dalinar say the 5th Oath and have him bond strongly enough with the Stormfather that he becomes the both the new Vessel of Honor as well as the new Dawnshard of Unity.

1 hour ago, Roocifer said:

I was under the impression that man brought multiple Dawnshards with them from Ashyn. There were not already Dawnshards on Roshar. I assumed that the power of the Dawnshards is what had destroyed Ashyn, causing them to be refugees. I think we also know already that Ishar the Herald held one of the Dawnshards (which is what he used to create the Oathpact).

Someone mentioned somewhere on another thread that the timeline doesn't make sense for the Change Dawnshard to be responsible for the destruction of Ashyn. if humans came to Roshar after the destruction of Ashyn then how do the Horneaters have a cultural memory of it coming through the perpendicularity as was mentioned by Cord. I guess that could be a cultural memory passed down by the original refugees but that's a looooooong time ago and it felt like Cord was referencing her people guarding the Perpendicularity and seeing someone come through with the Dawnshard. This would place it sometime after the Horneaters started living on the Peaks which is after the destruction of Ashyn.

As for the Unity Dawnshard, I agree that it was on Ashyn. I probably didn't do a good job of writing it out in the opening post (I was writing this at 8 AM after coming home from a long night shift and no sleep) but I feel like Honor had a Dawnshard but the agreement between Vessels was to not use them as it would upset the balance of power, probably similar to how the Vessels agreed to go and live on separate planets. I think he gave it to the humans on Ashyn for safekeeping and they used it to destroy the planet. They then traveled to Roshar, Ishar created the oathpact and the knights radiant and then handed Honor back his weapon when it became clear they needed a deterrent in the form of a Vessel duel-wielding a Shard and a Dawnshard, because that's exactly what Odium is doing.

[Roocifer]

20 minutes ago, Mage_914 said:

Someone mentioned somewhere on another thread that the timeline doesn't make sense for the Change Dawnshard to be responsible for the destruction of Ashyn. if humans came to Roshar after the destruction of Ashyn then how do the Horneaters have a cultural memory of it coming through the perpendicularity as was mentioned by Cord. I guess that could be a cultural memory passed down by the original refugees but that's a looooooong time ago and it felt like Cord was referencing her people guarding the Perpendicularity and seeing someone come through with the Dawnshard. This would place it sometime after the Horneaters started living on the Peaks which is after the destruction of Ashyn.

Well I dispute that other person's timeline lol. Since we're not in the space age yet, the refugees from Ashyn would have come to Roshar thru Shadesmar, and probably used Cultivation's Perpendicularity to ender the physical world. As for the Horneaters timeline, we know that Horneaters are a mix between Human and Parshendi/Singer, but we do NOT know that the refugees from Ashyn were the first humans on Roshar. If fact, I'd consider that unlikely, considering we know Hoid had visited Roshar pre-Desolations.

It's entirely possible that the Horneaters were already living on the peaks before the refugees from Ashyn came thru.

[Elias]

It could be that the four spiritual attributes are each tied to a Dawnshard.

Change could be Investiture, as it's a common theme in other fantasy series that magic is a force of some primeval chaos and so far there isn't a manifestation of Investiture that doesn't change something,

Fortune could be Survive, as it governs luck and seeing the future, as well as pointing out things that could be useful or beneficial,

Unity would most certainly be Connection, because it's obvious

And Identity could be Distinguish/Discern, as Identity governs how people are different from things and creatures around them.

 

Another thing I would like to say is that maybe the Change Dawnshard is somehow involved with the creation of Soulcasters. It's said that the island of Akinah was the only place people could go to get Soulcasters in pre-Scouring times, and Soulcasters are devices that literally change one thing into another by manipulating the Surge of Transformation.

Edited November 27, 2020 by Elias

[LeahAstonished]

On 11/16/2020 at 8:06 AM, Mage_914 said:

Distinguish is all about individuality (which is why I was having trouble with the word Distinguish. Individuality is not a verb!!!).

How about LIBERATE.

Liberty is both:

- the quality or state of being free, the power to do as one pleases

- a violation of rules or a deviation from standard practice, "to take liberties"

I think that goes pretty well with Odium, Ambition & Autonomy

Edited January 2, 2021 by LeahAstonished