Dawnshard usage theory (Cosmere spoilers)

[Dreamwa1ker]

Ok I hadn't found this one posted when I did a quick search but please excuse if it's already been theorized. Spoilers for Warbreaker ahead....

 

In Dawnshard, part of the deal Rysn makes at the end with the Sleepless is "You must never bond a spren to become a Radiant." This is presumably because if she became Radiant, she would have access to stormlight - easy access to Investiture might let her be able to use the ability of the Dawnshard (you need Investiture to fuel magic, while the Dawnshard is the Command). 

At the same time, the description by Nikli of usage of the Dawnshard sounds really similar to Awakening on Nalthis with needing an Intent, a Command, and Breath (Investiture). This reminded me that even if Rysn doesn't have easy access to Investiture as a Radiant, there is someone currently on Roshar who is heavily Invested with Breaths (including a Divine Breath as a Returned) - Vasher. 

The Returned often have a special task that is their purpose for being brought back by Endowment. They will find this purpose and give up their Divine Breath to fulfill it (as Lightsong did in Warbreaker). Vasher is still around so presumably his time may not have come yet.

Theory: There will come a time where the Dawnshard needs to be used to save the world, maybe to Change the Oathpact or to Change the nature of the Fused or Singers. In a critical moment, Vasher will realize this is his purpose and give up his Breaths + Divine Breath to Rysn so she can carry out this critical act.

Thoughts? Obviously still an undeveloped theory. Would Vasher himself have to provide the Intent/guide the power since as a Returned he maybe has a bit more the mind/capacity of a divinity?

[Paladin Brewer]

3 hours ago, Dreamwa1ker said:

In Dawnshard, part of the deal Rysn makes at the end with the Sleepless is "You must never bond a spren to become a Radiant." This is presumably because if she became Radiant, she would have access to stormlight - easy access to Investiture might let her be able to use the ability of the Dawnshard (you need Investiture to fuel magic, while the Dawnshard is the Command). 

As I understand it, the Dawnshard is literally investiture, and she is holding a lot of it now. That's why she has reached several heightenings, because she is currently very invested, and is holding more investiture now than any Radiant has held.

[Dreamwa1ker]

20 hours ago, Paladin Brewer said:

As I understand it, the Dawnshard is literally investiture, and she is holding a lot of it now. That's why she has reached several heightenings, because she is currently very invested, and is holding more investiture now than any Radiant has held.

Fair enough, this is a good point. So a different thing is missing. It is pretty much stated that Rysn can't currently use the Dawnshard in her current state:

"“Fortunately, you would not be able to employ it,” 
Nikli said. “It is beyond your capacity."

But it is also implied that she could if she formed a spren bond (hence the stipulation in the agreement). If it is not really Investiture that she lacks, but rather something else the bond would give her, perhaps it is more about divinity for lack of a better word. From Nikli's explanation:

" “All their greatest applications require Intent and a Command. Demands on a level no person could ever manage alone. To make such Commands, one must have the reasoning—the breadth of understanding—of a deity."

Perhaps the spren bond would make you capable of using the Dawnshard because spren are Splinters, little pieces of divinity.

Therefore I think specifically the Divine Breath of a Returned like Vasher (not just normal breaths) could allow true usage of the Dawnshard as Endowment has given you a little piece of her divinity.

Whether this means Rysn would have to somehow give Vasher the Dawnshard and have him use it, or use it together somehow (as it's also said you couldn't use it "alone" implying you may be able to buddy up) or if giving up his breath he could give her momentary capacity to wield it is unclear - she wouldn't be able to keep the Divine Breath as it doesn't seem to work that way.

Edited November 17, 2020 by Dreamwa1ker

[Legobinder]

46 minutes ago, Dreamwa1ker said:

" “All their greatest applications require Intent and a Command. Demands on a level no person could ever manage alone. To make such Commands, one must have the reasoning—the breadth of understanding—of a deity."

For the quote I think that it means if you have the breadth of understanding that a deity does then you can effectively use a Dawnshard but without that understanding I think it would be usable but uncontrollable and lead to outcomes like what happened on Ashyn. However a nahel bond with a spren probably would expand your understanding making it easier I guess to use a Dawnshard. And I believe that the Dawnshard needs another source of investiture ,besides its innate investiture, to fuel its commands. Something else a spren bond gives with stormlight consumption, or one could use breaths which you stated above.

 

48 minutes ago, Dreamwa1ker said:

Perhaps the spren bond would make you capable of using the Dawnshard because spren are Splinters, little pieces of divinity.

No Dawnshards were used on Ashyn which didn't have spren like Roshar does, or at least not spren that granted surgebinding because the Radiant oaths were formed to stop people from not being able to control surgebinding and leading to the destruction of Ashyn on Roshar which wasn't something that needed to happen before.

[Leuthie]

22 hours ago, Paladin Brewer said:

As I understand it, the Dawnshard is literally investiture, and she is holding a lot of it now. That's why she has reached several heightenings, because she is currently very invested, and is holding more investiture now than any Radiant has held.

But the Investiture she holds is a solid Spirit Web locked in the Spirit Realm. It can't be used to fuel magic.

I think if she gets enough free Investiture (like if she holds Stormlight), she'll become a beacon to those looking for the Dawnshard.

[unrudh]

On 11/16/2020 at 1:13 PM, Dreamwa1ker said:

Ok I hadn't found this one posted when I did a quick search but please excuse if it's already been theorized. Spoilers for Warbreaker ahead....

 

In Dawnshard, part of the deal Rysn makes at the end with the Sleepless is "You must never bond a spren to become a Radiant." This is presumably because if she became Radiant, she would have access to stormlight - easy access to Investiture might let her be able to use the ability of the Dawnshard (you need Investiture to fuel magic, while the Dawnshard is the Command). 

At the same time, the description by Nikli of usage of the Dawnshard sounds really similar to Awakening on Nalthis with needing an Intent, a Command, and Breath (Investiture). This reminded me that even if Rysn doesn't have easy access to Investiture as a Radiant, there is someone currently on Roshar who is heavily Invested with Breaths (including a Divine Breath as a Returned) - Vasher. 

The Returned often have a special task that is their purpose for being brought back by Endowment. They will find this purpose and give up their Divine Breath to fulfill it (as Lightsong did in Warbreaker). Vasher is still around so presumably his time may not have come yet.

Theory: There will come a time where the Dawnshard needs to be used to save the world, maybe to Change the Oathpact or to Change the nature of the Fused or Singers. In a critical moment, Vasher will realize this is his purpose and give up his Breaths + Divine Breath to Rysn so she can carry out this critical act.

Thoughts? Obviously still an undeveloped theory. Would Vasher himself have to provide the Intent/guide the power since as a Returned he maybe has a bit more the mind/capacity of a divinity?

This is a brilliant theory! I love it. But Vasher does mention that he is only a cognitive shadow nailed to a body. So I wonder if the Divine Breath is still available. Of course, he does still have regular breaths and uses them easily on Roshar, so who knows....

5 hours ago, Legobinder said:

For the quote I think that it means if you have the breadth of understanding that a deity does then you can effectively use a Dawnshard but without that understanding I think it would be usable but uncontrollable and lead to outcomes like what happened on Ashyn. However a nahel bond with a spren probably would expand your understanding making it easier I guess to use a Dawnshard. And I believe that the Dawnshard needs another source of investiture ,besides its innate investiture, to fuel its commands. Something else a spren bond gives with stormlight consumption, or one could use breaths which you stated above.

 

No Dawnshards were used on Ashyn which didn't have spren like Roshar does, or at least not spren that granted surgebinding because the Radiant oaths were formed to stop people from not being able to control surgebinding and leading to the destruction of Ashyn on Roshar which wasn't something that needed to happen before.

Just because there were no spren on Roshar doesn't mean they can't be used in the process. All things in the Cosmere use the same tools, Intent, Connection, Investiture, etc. Just that every Shardworld has different ways of accessing it. I certainly think sprens have something to do with it. Possibly why Akinah is shielded from High storms and thus can have no stormlight that isn't carried in physically.

Wonder what would happen if a Bondsmith tried some action in the protected space.

On 11/16/2020 at 4:33 PM, Paladin Brewer said:

As I understand it, the Dawnshard is literally investiture, and she is holding a lot of it now. That's why she has reached several heightenings, because she is currently very invested, and is holding more investiture now than any Radiant has held.

I don't think Dawnshard is investiture. Because Investiture is relatively common in the Cosmere. And supposedly anyone has the potential to use it. Besides, it was used to shatter Adonalsium, and it is known that that was a special tool.

A "Command" then is clearly different. And I wonder what the 4 Commands were, that were then each split into 4. I wonder if the Commands directly created the 16 Shards then. Is Dawnshard=Shard?

Is Rysn then a new Shard? Was that how all the Shards were created? Each absorbing a Command like "HATE" for Odium and "DESTROY" for Ruin, etc. Is that why we haven't seen all 16 Shards? Are some still waiting to be picked up and used?

And my favourite thought, is Hoid so obviously a Dawnshard himself? Someone once said that the same thing used to shatter Adonalsium is also the thing keeping Hoid alive. So obviously, he is a Dawnshard holder. No?

Yeeet!

[Leuthie]

8 hours ago, unrudh said:

This is a brilliant theory! I love it. But Vasher does mention that he is only a cognitive shadow nailed to a body. So I wonder if the Divine Breath is still available. Of course, he does still have regular breaths and uses them easily on Roshar, so who knows....

All Returned are Cognitive Shadows. WOB stated that there's no way to bring someone back from death that doesn't involve Cognitive Shadows.

8 hours ago, unrudh said:

This is a brilliant theory! I love it. But Vasher does mention that he is only a cognitive shadow nailed to a body. So I wonder if the Divine Breath is still available. Of course, he does still have regular breaths and uses them easily on Roshar, so who knows....

I don't think Dawnshard is investiture. Because Investiture is relatively common in the Cosmere. And supposedly anyone has the potential to use it. Besides, it was used to shatter Adonalsium, and it is known that that was a special tool.

A "Command" then is clearly different. And I wonder what the 4 Commands were, that were then each split into 4. I wonder if the Commands directly created the 16 Shards then. Is Dawnshard=Shard?

Everything in our universe is Matter and/or Energy. Everything in the Cosmere is Matter, Energy and/or Investiture. Investiture is generally locked in the Spiritual Realm. When it gets into the Cognitive or Physical Realms, it becomes usable to the entities there to power the various magics.

Spirit Webs are ordered matrices of Investiture used to define things in the other Realms (a simple and probably inaccurate explanation, but close enough). If something exists, it has a Spirit Web. If a Dawnshard exists, it has a Spirit Web. So, a Dawnshard is a command so intricate and complicated that it developed its own existence. Since it doesn't exist in the Physical Realm as anything but extraneous light on a mural, it is pure Investiture. It is a Spirit Web that represents one of the 4 primal Commands used to create the Cosmere. It isn't usable like Stormlight to surgebinders (or other magics) because it is locked in a Spirit Web in the Spiritual Realm.

Investiture is NOT relatively common in the Cosmere. Roshar is one of the few places in the Cosmere where free Investiture can be found and carried around. That's why there are so many worldhoppers. Sel has a huge amount of Investiture floating around its Cognitive Realm, but it can only be harnessed and used through intricate and location dependent shapes created in the Physical Realm on Sel. Otherwise, nearly all Investiture is locked in the Spiritual Realm.

8 hours ago, unrudh said:

A "Command" then is clearly different. And I wonder what the 4 Commands were, that were then each split into 4. I wonder if the Commands directly created the 16 Shards then. Is Dawnshard=Shard?

Is Rysn then a new Shard? Was that how all the Shards were created? Each absorbing a Command like "HATE" for Odium and "DESTROY" for Ruin, etc. Is that why we haven't seen all 16 Shards? Are some still waiting to be picked up and used?

And my favourite thought, is Hoid so obviously a Dawnshard himself? Someone once said that the same thing used to shatter Adonalsium is also the thing keeping Hoid alive. So obviously, he is a Dawnshard holder. No?

Yeeet!

Dawnshards are not Shards. They are the primal Commands that the entity the Shards used to make up used to Create the Cosmere. They weren't split and they won't be split. They were used to create a weapon that broke Adonalsium into 16 pieces.

Hoid held one of the Dawnshards at one point before the Shattering. It changed him in various ways. He doesn't hold one anymore. We don't know if he was one of those who used the Dawnshards to perform the Shattering (at least, I think we don't know)

 

Wish I could pull up WOB on each of these, but I'm too lazy.

Edited November 17, 2020 by Leuthie