KandraAllomancer Posted November 15, 2020 Report Share Posted November 15, 2020 During my re-read of Dawnshards I realized something I missed the first time: just before becoming a Dawnshard, Rysn was holding a spear. Nothing special on its own, but it gets so much weirder when compared with other evidence. As discussed in this great post: the Sovereign's Temple in Bands of Mourning did have a mural that bears strange similarity to the one in Akinah (indicating that Kelsier might actually be another Dawnshard) and a statue holding a long spear. Then we have this Death Rattle: Quote "He must pick it up, the fallen title! The tower, the crown, and the spear!" It obviously refers to Dalinar, but only the tower (Urithiru) and the crown (king of Urithiru, Bondsmith and leader of the KR) make sense. Why the spear? Unless the spear refers somehow to Dalinar becoming a Dawnshard of Unity as the next step of his fight against Odium... Using a spear as a symbol of a weapon that killed a God can be a reference to the Spear of Destiny from the Bible. And, as an additional extra-crazy bonus, other names of the Spear are Holy Lance or Lance of Longinus and (Perfect State spoilers) Spoiler the magic system that Kairominas uses is called Lancing I really hope that's not a true connection 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheat Commando Posted November 16, 2020 Report Share Posted November 16, 2020 That Death Rattle has always bugged me, but your theory makes me believe you're on to something. I've been rereading Mistborn Era 1 and the spear is very prominent. Something in the back of my mind kept whispering to me that it can't be a coincidence that Kaladin prefers the spear and that the spear is the icon of the Church of the Survivor. Why would Brandon Sanderson use the spear in such a significant role in two series??? I'm excited to see if this pans out. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ftl Posted November 16, 2020 Report Share Posted November 16, 2020 Hm. Interesting. Would be good to ask! I've interpreted the commonality there is that the spear is always the weapon of the underclasses - nobility have forged swords, but peasants always have a stick with a point at the end. But maybe there's more to it than that! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KandraAllomancer Posted November 16, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 16, 2020 12 hours ago, ftl said: Hm. Interesting. Would be good to ask! I've interpreted the commonality there is that the spear is always the weapon of the underclasses - nobility have forged swords, but peasants always have a stick with a point at the end. But maybe there's more to it than that! It does explain the symbolism of the spear on Scadrial, and it extends to Roshar as well (spear being Kaladin's weapon of choice, Moash killing Elhokar with a spear). Its connection with Dalinar is more mysterious though; his family crest does include a crown and a tower, but not a spear. Also, as I found yesterday, Rathalas was located on the shore of the Sea of Spears 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Oltux72 Posted November 16, 2020 Report Share Posted November 16, 2020 I always considered the spear a way of talking about Kaladin. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KandraAllomancer Posted November 16, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 16, 2020 1 hour ago, Oltux72 said: I always considered the spear a way of talking about Kaladin. That is also a possibility, especially if Kaladin ends up being Dalinar's Champion (though I'm leaning towards Szeth these days, to be honest) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mdross81 Posted November 16, 2020 Report Share Posted November 16, 2020 Thanks for the shout out to my post @KandraAllomancer! Just to add one more bit of spear iconography, here's something that I caught during a Secret History reread today. This is from the climax: Spoiler Quote [Kelsier] watched, awed, as Vin's strength coalesced. There was no hatred in the thrumming that washed from her, calming all things. Above her, Ruin laughed, again assuming he knew so much. That laughter cut off as Vin rose against him, a glorious, radiant, spear of power -- controlled, loving, compassionate, but unyielding. This is what Brandon does to us. Now every time I read the word spear I'm going to go down a rabbit hole. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Oltux72 Posted December 15, 2020 Report Share Posted December 15, 2020 On 15.11.2020 at 10:44 PM, KandraAllomancer said: It obviously refers to Dalinar, but only the tower (Urithiru) The tower and the crown are also Dalinar's glyphpair. Seeing Urithiru here is picking cherries among the data. It may be Urithiru, but it can also be a lot of other things. Yet the glyphpair of House Sadeas also features a tower. And this is talking about titles. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Harrycrapper Posted December 16, 2020 Report Share Posted December 16, 2020 Didn't Kaladin join the Kholin household, but with the surname "Stormblessed"? The tower/crown/spear could just be his house glyph. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoid the Former Drifter Posted December 16, 2020 Report Share Posted December 16, 2020 random question: is dawnshard in the newsletter? if not, how do i get it? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elegy Posted December 16, 2020 Report Share Posted December 16, 2020 4 minutes ago, Hoid the Drifter said: random question: is dawnshard in the newsletter? if not, how do i get it? It's avaiable as an e-book. It was initially sent to the Way of Kings 10th Anniversary kickstarter backers a bit earlier than the official digital release. A physical release is also planned for some time next year, but there isn't a release date yet. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoid the Former Drifter Posted December 17, 2020 Report Share Posted December 17, 2020 6 hours ago, Elegy said: It's avaiable as an e-book. how do i get it 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elegy Posted December 17, 2020 Report Share Posted December 17, 2020 14 hours ago, Hoid the Drifter said: how do i get it I'm not an e-book reader normally (I love paper way too much), so I don't know if there are better sources that I'm not aware of ... But it's avaiable to buy online on Amazon and Brandon Sanderson's shop site. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Could Be Fire Posted January 2, 2021 Report Share Posted January 2, 2021 On 11/16/2020 at 7:55 AM, Oltux72 said: I always considered the spear a way of talking about Kaladin. Kaladin doesn't really have a "fallen title" to pick up. I've heard good arguments for Gavinor in the back half. He (a boy), Fallen title (crown prince of destroyed Alethkar), town/crown (Kholin glyph pair), Spear (weapon used to kill Elhokar and also weapon associated with the Windrunners). Spear's def the odd one out, but if we see Gav learning to use a spear or working with the windrunners it'll be strong evidence. I can see Sanderson pulling parallels with an eventual Gavinor with spear vs. Moash with the honorblade fight to close out the cycle of revenge. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Oltux72 Posted January 2, 2021 Report Share Posted January 2, 2021 12 hours ago, Could Be Fire said: Kaladin doesn't really have a "fallen title" to pick up. Head of the Windrunners .And there is a book V to come. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeeDree Posted January 2, 2021 Report Share Posted January 2, 2021 (edited) I was under the impression that this death rattle "He must pick it up, the fallen title! The tower, the crown, and the spear!"was referring to the battle at the Tower in Way Of Kings. I had thought that to be the popular consensus. It fits well to me. It refers to Kal's swearing of the first oath I believe ? Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination. When he was lying down from his wounds watching his men being slaughtered in the effort to hold the bridge for the Kholin soldiers, he swore the first oath and fought his way to the Parshendis. Fallen title in this case would have referred to the fallen title of the Knight Radiants, tower and crown for the Kholin family crest, and spear for Kaladin's weapon of choice (which he had literally picked up) when attacking the Parshendi. Edited January 2, 2021 by VeeDree formatting 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adouloumis Posted January 3, 2021 Report Share Posted January 3, 2021 I think it refers to Kaladin as well, not Dalinar. Whatever happens with Dalinar, either he becomes Odium's pawn or continues the path to Bondsmith, which is to be pious, to advise. A large part of his journey after all is stepping back from authority. Meanwhile Kaladin is on the path of Windrunners. To protect and lead. Their patron was the Herald of Kings. So I believe that death rattle refers to when Kaladin will swear his 5th ideal, picking up the spear he left behind in RoW, along with Dalinar's crown and tower, leading humanity. Further speculation: It is the moment of the little circle above Kaladin's chapters. Where a spear carries an unknown glyph, accompanied with more spears. But I do agree that Dalinar is becoming a Dawnshard, whatever that means. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunu’anaki Posted January 11, 2021 Report Share Posted January 11, 2021 (edited) On 11/15/2020 at 4:44 PM, KandraAllomancer said: It obviously refers to Dalinar, but only the tower (Urithiru) and the crown (king of Urithiru, Bondsmith and leader of the KR) make sense. Why the spear? Unless the spear refers somehow to Dalinar becoming a Dawnshard of Unity as the next step of his fight against Odium... The "Fallen Title" could easily be "Bondsmith" as well (Or even "Radiant"). Edited January 11, 2021 by Lunu’anaki 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathiau Posted January 11, 2021 Report Share Posted January 11, 2021 (edited) On 03/01/2021 at 7:01 AM, adouloumis said: Meanwhile Kaladin is on the path of Windrunners. To protect and lead. Their patron was the Herald of Kings. Yes, but Kelek is the Herald of Truth, not Batah. Quote But I do agree that Dalinar is becoming a Dawnshard He can't be becoming a Dawnshard, becoming a Dawnshard is a matter of seconds, either Dalinar is a Dawnshard (which would makes sense since 'Unite' is probably on of them) or he is not Edited January 11, 2021 by mathiau I though we were on the RoW forum and spoiler the Dawnshard informations... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adouloumis Posted January 11, 2021 Report Share Posted January 11, 2021 3 hours ago, mathiau said: Yes, but Kelek is the Herald of Truth, not Batah. What? I was talking about Jezrien. Also, neither Battar, nor Kalak is referred to as the Herald of Truth to my knowledge, and it particularly does not make sense for Kalak. I would guess that is the nickname for Pailiah, you know the patron of the Truthwatchers. 3 hours ago, mathiau said: He can't be becoming a Dawnshard, becoming a Dawnshard is a matter of seconds, either Dalinar is a Dawnshard (which would makes sense since 'Unite' is probably on of them) or he is not We know almost nothing about Dawnshards so this seems quite the bold (and baseless) claim. I was thinking along the lines that one of the Dawnshards that is different from the others like Brandon said is perhaps one that is broken/splintered. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathiau Posted January 11, 2021 Report Share Posted January 11, 2021 1 hour ago, adouloumis said: What? I was talking about Jezrien. Also, neither Battar, nor Kalak is referred to as the Herald of Truth to my knowledge, and it particularly does not make sense for Kalak. I would guess that is the nickname for Pailiah, you know the patron of the Truthwatchers. ... I seem to have confused Battar and Pailiah I distinctly remember Kalak being called Herald of Truth, it's the reason he's allowed to judge humanity. And yes, the Herald of Truthwatchers is not the one called Herald of Truth, because even if the orders are similar to their Heralds, they are not the same (there's a reason the order of Stoneward was noted to be the most similar to their Herald). Windrunners are leaders, but it's not the same as rulers. Quote We know almost nothing about Dawnshards so this seems quite the bold (and baseless) claim. I was thinking along the lines that one of the Dawnshards that is different from the others like Brandon said is perhaps one that is broken/splintered. Er... the scene where Rysn become a Dawnshard in about five seconds? Oh! you meant becoming a new Dawnshard? I doubt it'd be possible but heh why not. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adouloumis Posted January 11, 2021 Report Share Posted January 11, 2021 But what does being the Herald of Truth has to do with Kaladin? I spoke specifically about the Herald of Kings. And actually, I search RoW for Herald of Truth and it seems we were both wrong. Quote “The Herald Ishi,” Dalinar said. “Creator of the Oathpact, Herald of Truth, and original binder of the Fused.” As for the Dawnshard, I meant the Unity Dawnshard that is supposedly the Rosharan system. I do not know about you but I do not think I got the full mechanism of Dawnshards from Rysn's book. Heck, I can barely say what exactly a Dawnsahrd is, much less how someone becomes it. This very topic we discuss whether Kelsier became one through some unknown process, so I think we cannot say it simply must follow exactly what Rysn's Dawnshard did. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathiau Posted January 11, 2021 Report Share Posted January 11, 2021 2 hours ago, adouloumis said: But what does being the Herald of Truth has to do with Kaladin? I spoke specifically about the Herald of Kings. And actually, I search RoW for Herald of Truth and it seems we were both wrong. Ah, I once again confused Ish and Kelek. My point is that if the "of truth" title is misplaced, why would the "of kings" not misplaced, giving us no reason to assume Kaladin will be king? Quote As for the Dawnshard, I meant the Unity Dawnshard that is supposedly the Rosharan system. I do not know about you but I do not think I got the full mechanism of Dawnshards from Rysn's book. Heck, I can barely say what exactly a Dawnsahrd is, much less how someone becomes it. This very topic we discuss whether Kelsier became one through some unknown process, so I think we cannot say it simply must follow exactly what Rysn's Dawnshard did. Ok, that makes sense. I still assume a Dawnshard stored in a mural like OP is supposing for the Survive one would work the same as the Change one, but it could be different for Dalinar's hypothetical one 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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