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Fundamental Interactions and Dawnshards


ShardplateJoe III

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Okay, I really should be doing my homework, but I just finished Dawnshard, boi oh boi, was it a good time.

Anyway, I am a physics student, and have been thinking quite a bit about what Nikli said during the deal with Rysn. He said, "The most powerful forms of Surgebinding transcend traditional mortal understanding... All their greatest applications require Intent and Command. Demands on a level no person could ever manage alone. To make such Commands, one must have the reasoning--the breadth of understanding-- of a deity. And so, the Dawnshards. The four primal Commands that created all things" (pg189,190). 

He goes on to say that the Commands were used to undo Adonalsium, but what I am interested in is his what he said about the four primal commands. I've seen a lot already of people talking about how these relate to the Intents of the shards, but I have not yet seen how anyone has talked about how these may relate to the four fundamental interactions we know and love as the

  • Strong nuclear force 
    • Holds together atomic nuclei
  • Weak nuclear force
    • Is responsible for radioactive decay
  • Gravity
    • The curvature of spacetime due to mass/energy
  • Electromagnetism
    • Responsible for much more than you might think, like light and chemistry

The reason I connect these to the four commands is because Nikli implies that the Dawnshards allow one to surgebind at the most primal level. We already understand that surgebinding is the ability to manipulate one of the ten surges or what Rosharans perceive as the ten fundamental forces of physics. Basically, the reason there are ten surges is because everyone kind of agrees that it looks like there are ten, though there are actually only four interactions. 

Spoiler

Questioner

The ten Surges on Roshar, I think you've said are basically a different set of laws of physics.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

Questioner

Are those laws of physics consistent throughout the Cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, to an extent. You would consider, like - it's kind of weird because I based them on the idea of the fundamental forces, but this is kind of like a human construction. You could say that physics is pure and natural, but we're still putting things in boxes. And the scientists on Roshar would, for instance, consider being able to travel between the Cognitive and Physical Realms as a force, the thing that pulls people back and forth between that, as a fundamental force. I don't know if it would fit our definition of a fundamental force.

Calamity Austin signing (Feb. 25, 2016)

These four fundamental interactions govern how literally everything in the universe is structured, behaves, etc. 

Thus, the dawnshards are the ultimate surgebinding tool that allow one to plug their will (Intent) directly into one of the four fundamental interactions (Commands) of the universe. 

There probably is some sort of relation to the Shards and their Intents, but I think the Dawnshards are primarily a god tier tool that allow people to directly influence the world without going through a Shard.

 

What are your thoughts?

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I unfortunately don’t have an answer . What I have is more questions ? Are Dawnshards of Command  need to be Paired with ones of intent to use them ? What level of power is needed to use one ? While I’m sure a shard could use one could one of the Fused with 1000 of years of experience surgebinding use one ? Could Hoid perhaps ? How many shards are thier in total ? Are thier 8 or 4 ? My guess is thier are 16 as Adonalsium was shattered into 16 parts , but that is pure guess . And lastly why can’t a shard or Herald detect the dawnshard in someone , part of me says they can’t or odium would of sent Fused to fetch one on aimia long ago , but at some level I’m thinking they must cause the Aimians knew Rysen had it.    Thoughts 

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Folks in other threads are stuck on trying to get to 16 from 4 Dawnshard commands to fit with Shards, Allomancy, etc. Maybe there are 6 undiscovered surges... but I'm not putting my eggs in that basket

If you have 4 commands, and want to combine them, you have 10 unique combinations of two. The example from that thread was Unite, Connect, Change, and Survive. That gives these combinations:

  1. Unite Unite
  2. Unite Connect
  3. Unite Survive
  4. Unite Change
  5. Connect Connect
  6. Connect Survive
  7. Connect Change
  8. Survive Survive
  9. Survive Change
  10. Change Change

I think that the 10 surges arise from combination of 4 Dawnshard command/intents. I don't think the above (Unite, Connect, Change, and Survive) are the right commands. My thoughts from another post:

Quote

My guesses for the Dawnshard commands are:

Change

Persist

Perceive

Unite

I feel like change covers both growth and decay. Thinking about the Dawnshards as the tools Ado used to create the universe, I like Change as kind of this constant movement towards entropy. Persist comes from me imagining an empty universe. Ado in there, making things that change or cease to exist when they aren't actively thinking about them - kind of like cosmic object permanence. Unite likewise makes sense as kind of the opposite of change. If the universe is coming into being, it needs to have this kind of balance or else it flings itself apart and you get nothing. Perceive is the last... I was thinking about the creation of life, this idea that a universe full of stuff that could never know itself was empty. Of them, this is the one I am least confidant about.

 

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I theorize that the dawnshard commands are all concepts we have already been identified in the cosmere. The fundamentals of cosmere life and magic are Connection, Identity, Change, and Fortune. Fortune being the “command” that is different from the rest.

Change: remake, evolve, adapt, grow, invent, entropy, (influence your surroundings and your self)

Connect; unite, bind, form relationships, love, feeling, (perceive your surroundings and your self)

Identify: persist, exist, continue, survive, remember, think, (recognize your surroundings and your self)

Fortune; this is the different one, involving luck, serendipity, destiny, and the flow of time.

I also think that the various Shards each have some measure of these concepts, but in different amounts. I like the idea of overlap or a spectrum. 

Edited by LightReader
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On 14/11/2020 at 10:47 PM, ShardplateJoe III said:

Okay, I really should be doing my homework, but I just finished Dawnshard, boi oh boi, was it a good time.

Anyway, I am a physics student, and have been thinking quite a bit about what Nikli said during the deal with Rysn. He said, "The most powerful forms of Surgebinding transcend traditional mortal understanding... All their greatest applications require Intent and Command. Demands on a level no person could ever manage alone. To make such Commands, one must have the reasoning--the breadth of understanding-- of a deity. And so, the Dawnshards. The four primal Commands that created all things" (pg189,190). 

He goes on to say that the Commands were used to undo Adonalsium, but what I am interested in is his what he said about the four primal commands. I've seen a lot already of people talking about how these relate to the Intents of the shards, but I have not yet seen how anyone has talked about how these may relate to the four fundamental interactions we know and love as the

  • Strong nuclear force 
    • Holds together atomic nuclei
  • Weak nuclear force
    • Is responsible for radioactive decay
  • Gravity
    • The curvature of spacetime due to mass/energy
  • Electromagnetism
    • Responsible for much more than you might think, like light and chemistry

The reason I connect these to the four commands is because Nikli implies that the Dawnshards allow one to surgebind at the most primal level. We already understand that surgebinding is the ability to manipulate one of the ten surges or what Rosharans perceive as the ten fundamental forces of physics. Basically, the reason there are ten surges is because everyone kind of agrees that it looks like there are ten, though there are actually only four interactions. 

  Hide contents

Questioner

The ten Surges on Roshar, I think you've said are basically a different set of laws of physics.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

Questioner

Are those laws of physics consistent throughout the Cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, to an extent. You would consider, like - it's kind of weird because I based them on the idea of the fundamental forces, but this is kind of like a human construction. You could say that physics is pure and natural, but we're still putting things in boxes. And the scientists on Roshar would, for instance, consider being able to travel between the Cognitive and Physical Realms as a force, the thing that pulls people back and forth between that, as a fundamental force. I don't know if it would fit our definition of a fundamental force.

Calamity Austin signing (Feb. 25, 2016)

These four fundamental interactions govern how literally everything in the universe is structured, behaves, etc. 

Thus, the dawnshards are the ultimate surgebinding tool that allow one to plug their will (Intent) directly into one of the four fundamental interactions (Commands) of the universe. 

There probably is some sort of relation to the Shards and their Intents, but I think the Dawnshards are primarily a god tier tool that allow people to directly influence the world without going through a Shard.

 

What are your thoughts?

I think they are about physics but more fundamental even than these forces and more theologically linked too.

 

I think they are more around the laws of thermodynamics and entropy themselves, what things will do over time (which would be seen as laws set by God) and also linked to incommunicable attributes of God 

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@ShardplateJoe III

which of the forces do you align with Change?
and which Command would you align with the other forces?

 

@Autobrecciation

I like the idea. Knights Radiant get access to 2 Surges. each Surge related to a Dawnshard.
that would also explain how there are proto-Surges that predate the Shattering. its the Dawnshard Command in a purer form. the Surges are a mixture of 2 Commands.
Change could result in a proto-Regrowth for example.

Edited by trav
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On 11/18/2020 at 5:48 PM, LightReader said:

I theorize that the dawnshard commands are all concepts we have already been identified in the cosmere. The fundamentals of cosmere life and magic are Connection, Identity, Change, and Fortune. Fortune being the “command” that is different from the rest.

Change: remake, evolve, adapt, grow, invent, entropy, (influence your surroundings and your self)

Connect; unite, bind, form relationships, love, feeling, (perceive your surroundings and your self)

Identify: persist, exist, continue, survive, remember, think, (recognize your surroundings and your self)

Fortune; this is the different one, involving luck, serendipity, destiny, and the flow of time.

I also think that the various Shards each have some measure of these concepts, but in different amounts. I like the idea of overlap or a spectrum. 

This is exactly what I said in a different thread:

 

 

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YES!!
Been searching for this, specifically from someone actively studying physics. 
I’m no physics student, but as soon as I read that there are 4 Dawnshards I could not get this idea out of my head.  
I’ve always viewed Brandon’s deep cosmere lore, as a quite beautiful synthesis of physics, religion, and fantasy. Mostly because, as you pointed out, he’s said as much at least once. 
But what else could 4 primal commands be?! 
Strong force- bind

Weak force- change 

Electromagnetism- stasis (most likely the shard Hoid held) 

Gravity (the one different from the others)- connect - or more specifically the relationship between all matter in the cosmos/cosmere, in which we perceive time. 

And he could very well take some artistic liberty and blend Gravity and the Strong force, so he has one left over to call Life, or something along those lines.

Although I’d prefer if life was simply a consequence of those forces interacting, which Adonalsium would definitely be aware of, being all places and all times and whatnot.
 

 

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