Is Odium A Dawnshard?

[Kesamijr]

I think that Odium is a dawnshard. We have these WoBs:

Valhalla

Ruin and Odium, they both talked about their passion, and it was italicized both times. Would any other Shards talk about passion in that same italicized way?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes they would.

Valhalla

Would any of them not talk about it that way?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Excellent, good questions.

Idaho Falls signing (July 21, 2018)

 

Billy Todd, Moderator

So, does he genuinely believe in characterizing himself as Passion?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Part of him does.

Billy Todd, Moderator

Has he always ever been Odium since the Shattering?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)

 

I think that this is because passion or be passionate is one of the Commands for the Dawnshards, so part of him is that, Passion. Brandon also said: 

 

MoriWillow

You once told us that one of the Dawnshards was different from the others. As of the events of this novella, is that still true?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 9, 2020)

 

I think that the one Dawnshard that is different is the one that Odium is. I think he's both a Shard and a Dawnshard. We know that Odium has more power than he should, and that he's referred to himself as Passion. We also know that Odium has a record of winning what would seem to be even fights, relatively unscathed. We know he has had help as well, but Brandon also said that he's capable enough on his own that, given the current situation, he could conceivably overcome Sazed (who has approximately twice the raw power). Relevant WOBs: 

Khyrindor

Odium seems to have a bad track record when it comes to killing Shards. He was wounded versus Ambition, and he's trapped on Roshar. Yet, he's credited in killing Devotion and Dominion. My question is: was Autonomy significantly involved and would Odium have been able to do it on his own and still be okay to--

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO. It is dangerous to attack a Shard with one Shard. Let's say that. And a wise Shard would try to avoid that confrontation unless there are specific reasons they think they would have an advantage.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

 

Questioner

Does Odium actually present a real threat to Harmony, because he-- *interrupted*

Brandon Sanderson

So Harmony is vastly more powerful than Odium.

Questioner

Yeah. 

Brandon Sanderson

Elend was vastly more powerful than Vin. Who would win in a fight?

Questioner

Vin.

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, there's your answer.

White Sand vol.1 release party (June 28, 2016)

A few last big pieces of evidence:

The foreshadowing: The Broken One reigns. I think the Broken One is Odium's Dawnshard, that is functioning differently. 

The fact that Dalinar felt a warm golden in light in (OB I Think?) and expects it to be the God Beyond before turning around to see Odium. This could be reminiscent of the "warm golden light" that Rysn also felt when she saw the Dawnshard in the cave. 

We know Honor was ranting about the Dawnshards, emphasis s. He talked about how they had been corrupted or something of the like (someone please link the relevant quote I don't have my books right now because I'm moving). Odium having, and corrupting, a Dawnshard certainly seems like the type of thing to fit into this categorization of Honor's. 

We know that Hoid has personal beef with Odium, considering that there are a max of four Dawnshards at a time, it seems like the kind of thing where knowledgeable Dawnshards would be aware of each other, and also seems like the kind of thing that could exacerbate personal beef. 

We know that we've seen a Dawnshard, somewhat, before Dawnshard. 

 

Punzi (paraphrased)

Have we seen a Dawnshard in any Cosmere book?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes and no. *hands RAFO card*

DragonCon 2019 (Aug. 30, 2019)

 

Questioner

The Dawnshards. Have we seen any evidence of them on Roshar yet?

Brandon Sanderson

Technically, yes.

Questioner

Is there a the relationship between them and say, like, the perfect gems like the King's Drop?

Brandon Sanderson

I'll RAFO that. Good question.

FanX 2018 (Sept. 8, 2018)

I think these are because Odium is a dawnshard, or a corrupted version of one, and we haven't seen him use his Dawnshard yet either. 

But that's my theory, I'd love to hear other's thoughts on my theory, things you think prove my theory right or wrong or things I might've missed!:)

 

Edited November 12, 2020 by Kesamijr

[LewsTherinTelescope]

7 hours ago, Kesamijr said:

We know Honor was ranting about the Dawnshards, emphasis s. He talked about how they had been corrupted or something of the like (someone please link the relevant quote I don't have my books right now because I'm moving).

Honor never said they were corrupted. It was a common theory they were corrupted into the Unmade, but there was never much of a hint one way or the other about that.

As for the plural, imo, he's just saying "in the past, the way we as mere mortals took down a god was with the Dawnshards, I have no storming clue how you'll manage that without them". 

7 hours ago, Kesamijr said:

We know that we've seen a Dawnshard, somewhat, before Dawnshard. 

 

Punzi (paraphrased)

Have we seen a Dawnshard in any Cosmere book?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes and no. *hands RAFO card*

DragonCon 2019 (Aug. 30, 2019)

Might just mean Hoid, since he's a former Dawnshard.

On the post as a whole, here's a WoB that could support either side and I'm not really sure which, so I'll just leave it here:

Quote

KingSloth

Is Odium's method of smothering shards inspired at all by the way Adonalsium was originally shattered? Or of his own devising?

Brandon Sanderson

It is not obvious to other Shards. But there are relationships.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 8, 2015)

 

[Kesamijr]

35 minutes ago, beewall said:

Honor never said they were corrupted. It was a common theory they were corrupted into the Unmade, but there was never much of a hint one way or the other about that.

As for the plural, imo, he's just saying "in the past, the way we as mere mortals took down a god was with the Dawnshards, I have no storming clue how you'll manage that without them". 

Might just mean Hoid, since he's a former Dawnshard.

On the post as a whole, here's a WoB that could support either side and I'm not really sure which, so I'll just leave it here:

 

Oh RIP, yeah I'll see if I can pick up the books and find the relevant thing but yeah I believe you if Honor didn't say that. 

And it could mean Hoid, I actually thought it could mean Kelsier too cause we haven't technically seen him, only in a vision, but it also could fit for this.

That is a good WoB tho thank you!

[CambridgeComma]

In Dalinar's vision at the very end of the Way of Kings, Honor/Tanavast says 

Quote

A champion could work well for you, but it is not certain. And ... without the Dawnshards... Well, I have done what I can.

which isn't really saying a whole lot beyond "you don't have them now".

[CambridgeComma]

15 hours ago, Kesamijr said:

I think that the one Dawnshard that is different is the one that Odium is. I think he's both a Shard and a Dawnshard. We know that Odium has more power than he should, and that he's referred to himself as Passion. We also know that Odium has a record of winning what would seem to be even fights, relatively unscathed. We know he has had help as well, but Brandon also said that he's capable enough on his own that, given the current situation, he could conceivably overcome Sazed (who has approximately twice the raw power). Relevant WOBs: 

I would say your quotes from Brandon (below) undermine this theory: Brandon's point is precisely that Vin would win despite having far less power. By analogy, Odium's success is due not to some hidden source of power, but his other traits.

15 hours ago, Kesamijr said:

Questioner

Does Odium actually present a real threat to Harmony, because he-- *interrupted*

Brandon Sanderson

So Harmony is vastly more powerful than Odium.

Questioner

Yeah. 

Brandon Sanderson

Elend was vastly more powerful than Vin. Who would win in a fight?

Questioner

Vin.

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, there's your answer.

 

[Dresden_Stormblessed]

Here's my theory from another thread (Link):

Quote

Alright....tin hat theory time everybody. Apologies in advance but...this is just so exciting.

So, background: Dalinar's flashbacks were first meant for Book 5, not Book 3. We were supposed to know what Dawnshards are right now before Book 4 but have been shown 2 (kind of) to this point: Hoid (who used to be a Dawnshard) and Dalinar (currently is one without knowing fully yet). Just like one can be a vessel for the Shard, or Intent, one can be a vessel for the Dawnshard (as has been shown twice now). RoW spoiler below from Part 1...

  Reveal hidden contents

Are you ready for a ride in my crazy mind? Here we do down the rabbit hole...

There are 4 Commands (Authority) aka Dawnshards: Unity, Change, and 2 others (I'm not certain on these yet. Possibly Destroy (and Nightblood is the vessel/Dawnshard? More on this below).

These 4 Commands/Dawnshards can be accessed by 4 Intents (Power/Shards) each (knowledge via the mural).
Unity→Honor (X), Dominion (X), Devotion (X), & ?
Change→Endowment, Cultivation, Ruin, & ?
Destroy?→Ambition (X), Autonomy, Odium, & ?
_____→Preservation, (Wisdom, the one that wants to hide and survive), ? & ?

Two of these are, for sure, on Roshar. My guess is another is on Scadrial. The fourth is hiding right under our noses.

Keep in mind that Preservation & Ruin are now Harmony. Possible other names for Shards are Ingenuity (fourth group) or Prudence (also fourth group).

First, UNITY.
I agree with this theory from @robardin:

Quote

I just thought of something. Cultivation said to herself as she considered what she did to Dalinar: "IN DOING THIS, I PROVIDE FOR HIM A WEAPON. DANGEROUS, VERY DANGEROUS."

She then describes the boon and the cost as "WHAT I TAKE FROM YOU WILL GROW BACK EVENTUALLY. THIS IS PART OF THE COST. IT WILL DO ME WELL TO HAVE A PART OF YOU, EVEN IF YOU ULTIMATELY BECOME HIS."

Dalinar is later confused when hiis memories of Evi begin to return, as no other account of the Old Magic has either the boon or bane be anything other than permanent.

So either it's different when Cultivation Herself does it... Or she had more going on in mind? The returning memories were part of the cost. Not a wearing off of a boon, where the boon isn't supposed to be temporary.

And even if you thought of it as the return of pledged collateral on the interest paid to get something for a while, like at a pawnshop - if giving up the memories formed the collateral, that yielding can't also be the boon itself, right?

And what is this "very dangerous weapon" she is potentially providing for Odium? Giving him years to recover from the haunted memories and making him stronger? But Odium was counting on the pain from those memories returning to cause him to fall - as if their return were not something of Cultivation's doing, but his. (He knows Dalinar met with Cultivation and lost his memories, after all.)

... Or was she taking his memories temporarily, knowing they'd return, while also making Dalinar a Dawnshard?! (And here I'd thought the Nightwatcher offering him Nightblood for a boon was astounding!) That's the permanent boon.

And the permanent cost? She evidently still has "a part of Dalinar", something she'd have retained even if he'd fallen to Odium despite her pruning, and would "do her well" in that eventuality.

Dalinar was freaking given the Dawnshard Unity from Cultivation. That explains Odium running away with his tail between his legs because Dalinar has the Intent (Bondsmith) AND the Command (Unity). That makes him ridiculously more powerful than he realizes. Odium sees Intent (Honor) with the Command (Unity) and that's freaking terrifying.

Note: I think this Dawnshard is what Ishar used as the OG Bondsmith to create the Knights Radiant and the Oathpact. It was taken away from him some time after that.

Next, CHANGE.
Kinda obvious now that we've read Dawnshard. Keep in mind, the reason the Sleepless commanded Rysnnot to bond with a spren is because if she gets access to the Power (Intent) AND the authority that she already holds, she becomes exponentially more powerful.

Last, DESTROY.
So this one's going on a limb but here's my guess.
Nightblood is the vessel for the Command / Dawnshard Destroy. This makes a whole lot of sense. What better way to hide the Command / Dawnshard from someone with Intent or prevent misuse of it than a vessel that would literally kill the holder if it was evil. Endowment helped significantly in this, I'm sure. If I'm right, that makes 3 (!) Dawnshards on Roshar. All 3 of which hiding.

TIN HAT TIME
 

Odium went after Ambition for obvious reasons. His next plan of attack though? Devotion & Dominion and then Honor. Why? Because they would be the other Shards that could access the Dawnshard of Unity. THAT'S why he went after who he did. Odium came to Roshar ultimately seeking the Dawnshard Unity, not just Honor or Culitvation. Better yet, Odium, wanted to become Conquest. That’s his shtick. He wanted to find the Dawnshard, absorb Honor, and freaking wreck people across the Cosmere. Soaking the Shards all up one by one.

 

So what happens in Book 5? Dalinar learns he is a Dawnshard somehow from Rysn. Dalinar realizes what Unity truly is. Not the Shard, the Command. He then uses that Command to Unite Honour back again, absorb it, and absorb Odium becoming Conquest. Guess where he goes during the break between 5 book arcs? The shards of Dominion & Devotion. Can you say power up?

But wait, there's more!

If Dalinar only had the four intents from Unity, he would truly become Unity. But problem! He's got Odium. And that means...

 

Dalinar is the freaking antagonist of the last five and holy crap is he Uber powerful compared to simple little Odium. (Navani will be our Bondsmith for the SA pending awakening Sibling??)

Either that or Conquest takes Radiants for Intergalactic Warfare, staying true to his name & just uniting like crazy.

Unity could then combine the Sleepless making one super scary Sleepless or worse yet...destroy the whole of Roshar / orders of the Knights Radiant as Conquest and build a new Oathpact...one not bound to just Roshar but the whole of Cosmere.

Edited 18 hours ago by Dresden_Stormblessed
Forgot the sleepless & the WoK blurb...

 

[Kesamijr]

4 hours ago, Dresden_Stormblessed said:

Here's my theory from another thread (Link):

 

Can't cap, I like this theory a lot too. I think your tin hat part is a little more strained, because I think Odium didn't want to combine with any other shards, per WoB, but other than the part about Odium wanting to become conquest, I think that's right. Or even that the "we killed you" could be in reference to the Dawnshard. I don't think evidence conclusively points either way, but I like your theory a lot too!

[Honorless]

If the Dawnshards were used to Shatter Adonalsium into pieces and create the 16 Shards, then it's entirely probable that the reason for Odium's success in Splintering multiple Shards is due to him having a Dawnshard. Honor's thoughts on defeating Odium seemed to go towards that direction as well.

Maybe that's why Honor and Cultivation could stop him, because they had Dawnshard(s) too.