RoW Chapter 19 Discussion

[Knight of Iron]

47 minutes ago, Karger said:

I have been thinking about this for a while but does anyone else find this "smart" Taravangian way less intimidating then his old "stupid" self?  Sure it is partially that his cover is blown but I think it is more that this new version is not particularly adept at understanding people the way he used to be.  His old self's words and belifes had a deep effect on Dalinar.  His new self just seems to go for shock value like a Bond villain.

I see your point, I think for the characters it is scarier because now they know he’s a criminal mastermind while as readers, we knew he was a criminal mastermind while he snuck so easily and effortlessly beneath everyone else’s noses. That was always what frightened me about him, my thought that no one was going to find out about him.

[NightbloodforPM]

On 11/11/2020 at 2:23 AM, broccoli said:

Nice catch! Your comment made me think that maybe it's Odium "filling" those intelligence "gaps".

Maybe this is cultivation's long con? Make odium fill in the intelligence while Taravangian is his most compassionate.

[DeployParachute]

On 11/11/2020 at 0:42 PM, Nameless said:

and then Adoling and Shallan will arrive with all the honorspren, making a bunch of new Radiants and saving the day.

Given the story structure visualization that Brandon revealed here, I think it is much more likely that Adolin and Shallan's story ends for this book at the conclusion of part 4, and are not likely to play a significant role (if any) in the climax of the battle for Urithiru. At least that is my suspicion. All characters returning from Shadesmar in the nick of time to save the day was Part 5 of OB. Looking at the balance of the narrative from a writing perspective, I would think that Brandon would consider that a bit stale, and repetitive. Also, is it even possible for a whole bunch of people to simultaneously bond honorspren en-mass in such a short timeframe as would be required by the act of "turning the tide of a battle". I don't think so, or at least it seems counterintuitive to how we have come to understand these bonds developing in the first place. 

No, I think that Shallan/Adolin's storyline is going to be the emotional letdown portion of RoW, to counterbalance the emotional uplifting that will probably occur by throwing back the enemy at Urithiru and reactivating the tower via the sibling.

An example of counterbalancing emotional beats in a book across multiple plot lines, look at ASoIaF:

Spoiler

In book 3 of ASoIaF, A Storm of Swords, the emotionally devastating element of the Red Wedding, and the failures of Cat and Robb, are balanced by the uplifting portions of Jon's success defense of the wall from Mance and the Wildlings and his elevation to Lord Commander, Dany's conquering of Mereen, and Tyrion's successful escape from certain death after his failure at trial by battle.

I dunno, I could be very wrong on my take for what will happen in this book. However I still maintain that this series about a global total war between multiple factions of people is decidedly light on tragedy thus far. So I'm just kind of looking at the places where that shoe is likely to drop.

[IcaroRibeiro]

30 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

Given the story structure visualization that Brandon revealed here, I think it is much more likely that Adolin and Shallan's story ends for this book at the conclusion of part 4

There is a confirmed conclusion POV for Shallan-Adolin arc at part 5 according to a non-spoiler review from Tor

Edited November 12, 2020 by IcaroRibeiro

[Lemiltock]

1 hour ago, IcaroRibeiro said:

There is a confirmed conclusion POV for Shallan-Adolin arc at part 5 according to a non-spoiler review from Tor

Still the two character POV for group 2/3 does line up with shallan and adolin being in a group with relative nobodies, they could be part of group 3, but shallan also showed up in part 1. Or they could be group 2 with a close out ti their arc but not a POV in part 5.

[DeployParachute]

1 hour ago, IcaroRibeiro said:

There is a confirmed conclusion POV for Shallan-Adolin arc at part 5 according to a non-spoiler review from Tor

Got some sauce for that?

[IcaroRibeiro]

13 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Still the two character POV for group 2/3 does line up with shallan and adolin being in a group with relative nobodies, they could be part of group 3, but shallan also showed up in part 1. Or they could be group 2 with a close out ti their arc but not a POV in part 5.

Shallan/Adolin were confirmed as then POV characters of group 2 and will be present in parts 2 and 4, having only a final chapter in part 5 to close their arc on this book

Dalinar and Jasnah are the POV characters of group 3, with Jasnah having only a few viewpoints but more than what she had on Book 3. Their arc start on part 3 and finish in part 5 as well

[IcaroRibeiro]

Just now, DeployParachute said:

Got some sauce for that?

Quote

Unlike some reviews, I’m not going to tell you what they are; I don’t see any way to talk about them without spoilers. To manage expectations, though, I’ll say this much: There are three major plot arcs which logically follow from the prior events of the series, up through the end of Part One. One of those arcs continues to weave through the remaining four parts. A second arc mostly takes place in Parts Two and Four with a final scene in Part Five, while the third is seen in Parts Three and Five. If you have a Special Darling Character who happens to be involved in either the second or third arc, resign yourself to this knowledge now.

https://www.tor.com/2020/11/12/brandon-sandersons-rhythm-of-war-a-non-spoiler-review/

So unless Adolin and Shallan are in the third arc (which I doubt), that's confirmed their final scene is somewhere in Part 5

[Lemiltock]

6 minutes ago, IcaroRibeiro said:

https://www.tor.com/2020/11/12/brandon-sandersons-rhythm-of-war-a-non-spoiler-review/

So unless Adolin and Shallan are in the third arc (which I doubt), that's confirmed their final scene is somewhere in Part 5

The part youve highlighted has them fit in as group 2. A final scene is not necissarialy a POV chapter or conclusion to their quest, just a final scene of their characters in the final part of the book which makes sence as they (especially Shallan) are main characters. 

 

[DeployParachute]

14 minutes ago, IcaroRibeiro said:

https://www.tor.com/2020/11/12/brandon-sandersons-rhythm-of-war-a-non-spoiler-review/

So unless Adolin and Shallan are in the third arc (which I doubt), that's confirmed their final scene is somewhere in Part 5

Awesome. Thanks for the quick response. Honestly, that doesn't read like it deflates my point, that Shallan/Adolin arc will probably not play a significant role in resolving the Urithiru battle in the dramatic fashion described above. Not to mention that the reviewer states that the arc itself has its conclusion in one scene in part five, and is careful to avoid detailing who may be involved. It reads more like there is a quick denouement scene for one of the viewpoints, likely Shallan. I'd put my money on it involving Mraize. She needs to deliver to him the information and receive her reward, do she can decide if it was worth the price she paid. My point, I think, still stands that the emotional climax of that arc will be contained within part 4.

 

Edited November 13, 2020 by DeployParachute

[Rainier]

2 minutes ago, IcaroRibeiro said:

So unless Adolin and Shallan are in the third arc (which I doubt), that's confirmed their final scene is somewhere in Part 5

Thanks! I couldn't help myself, so I'm going to spout on about the following paragraphs. The following are predictions, etc. with all caveats applied.

Quote

That said, I thoroughly enjoyed each arc in its own way. The first, with an unexpected combination of three lead characters and a handful of minor POVs, is honestly somewhat painful to read. Not because it’s poorly written, mind you—but because it’s so very well written. It resonates in ways I don’t think Sanderson expected when he was writing it. The lows are so very low, and it feels like every time hope peeks around the corner, despair rushes up to stomp on it, until you begin to wonder if you’ll survive the book, never mind if the characters will. The result is that when the climactic events arrive, the rewards make you cry almost as much as the painful price you paid to get there. The crazier part is the sheer number of characters who have their own mini-avalanche, all contributing to the big SanderLanche

So this is our Navani-Kaladin-Venli group, and the arc I'm calling the Siege of Urithiru. This is where much of the character work is going to be done, and we're going to be torn up over it. Climactic events being the Sibling inhabiting Urithiru as a spren does a fabrial, bonding Navani in the process. Kaladin swearing the Fourth Oath. Venli has nothing so obvious except a full change of sides, or speaking the Second Oath. I'm excited to see her enigma revealed, especially in the flashbacks, so we can better understand just WTF happened to bring about these apocalyptic events.

Szeth will seemingly get left behind. I'm expecting him to be Told to Guard Navani by Dalinar, which will keep him involved in her POV and make sure he's where he's needed during the siege.

Lift is probably the other main character staying in Urithiru. It might make more sense for her to be with the army, but she's a well-lit character and that means she's getting screen time somewhere, someway. There's Renarin, who is absolutely staying to examine the Tower and will continue to be involved in revealing her secrets.

Quote

The second arc, while obviously not as prolonged, nonetheless had plenty of highs, lows, and surprises. Split almost equally between its two main characters, the stresses were real, if not as agonizing. For me, the culmination was…well, stunning. I laughed and cried together, both delighted and grieved that multiple expectations were fulfilled—and completely shocked by the way that happened. This arc definitely left some holes that must be filled in the next book.

Here's Shallan and Adolin's journey. The stunning culmination has to include both Shallan's Truth and Reconciliation Committee as well as Reviving Maya. I'm very excited for exactly what those mean and how they happen, as it's very clear what has to be addressed, but not very clear how that's coming about. It's where we'll get some significant unknown unknowns becoming known unknowns, which is both thrilling and infuriating. I find myself most looking forward to this arc.

Quote

The third arc…wow. I’m not quite sure what to say about it. Mostly told from a single viewpoint, the plot itself is fairly minor in context of the book—but some of the things that happen along the way blew my mind. Some were just really amazing scenes in their own right. Some were linked in powerful ways to the main storyline. And some…well, some set up implications for the following book that make me both excited and terrified.

Single viewpoint of Dalinar, Jasnah's POV still being withheld until the back 5. Least amount of information going in, least amount of speculation to do. What we learn is going to be the primary setup, the A story, of book 5.

We're almost there. I'm still scrawling on the walls compulsively. Five Days Remaining.

[IcaroRibeiro]

18 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

Awesome. Thanks for the quick response. Honestly, that doesn't read like it deflates my point, that Shallan/Adolin arc will probably not play a significant role in resolving the Urithiru battle in the dramatic fashion described above. Not to mention that the reviewer states that the arc itself has its conclusion in one scene in part five, and is careful to avoid detailing who may be involved. It reads more like there is a quick denouement scene for one of the viewpoints, likely Shallan. I'd put my money on it involving Mraize. She needs to deliver to him the information and receive her reward, do she can decide if it was worth the price she paid. My point, I think, still stands that the emotional climax of that arc will be contained within part 4.

 

Yup, I know and I agree with you. I just wanted to point their arc will be finished in part 5, not in part 4

[DeployParachute]

Quote

Split almost equally between its two main characters, the stresses were real, if not as agonizing. For me, the culmination was…well, stunning. I laughed and cried together, both delighted and grieved that multiple expectations were fulfilled—and completely shocked by the way that happened. This arc definitely left some holes that must be filled in the next book.

Well, I'll admit this much: seems like Adolin may be safe this book, as the reviewer doesn't seem to experience as many devastating lows about this arc as they did the first. Seems like our character deaths may be occurring at the tower. Yay...more pain and loss to heap on to Kaladin (cause you know it's going to be more close friends and/or family)

Brandon...if you're going to keep Adolin alive, and he's going to resurrect Maya and become radiant, could you please please please have it cost him something... 

Edited November 13, 2020 by DeployParachute

[IcaroRibeiro]

10 minutes ago, Rainier said:

. Venli has nothing so obvious except a full change of sides, or speaking the Second Oath. 

I think a third is more likely. I can see her secretly swearing the second ideal while still on singer side, as the intent of freedom is what already is moving her to refund Willshapers among the group of singers she lead. Before the third ideal she can't get any official squires either, at least not squires who can manifest surgebinding

20 minutes ago, Rainier said:

Single viewpoint of Dalinar, Jasnah's POV still being withheld until the back 5. Least amount of information going in, least amount of speculation to do. What we learn is going to be the primary setup, the A story, of book 5.

Sanderson confirmed she has some viewpoints. In Oathbringer she had 2 chapters in part 2 and some viewpoints in part 5 of Sanderlanche, I think she will at least get 5 this time, and some good information about her radiant path, I hope she's on the 4th oath already. On my mind she has swear 2nd ideal long before The Way of Kings and was stuck on it until she get into shadesmar on Words of Radiance, there she discovered or did something that made her progress to her 3rd ideal and finally be back to physical realm (she's confirmed on 3rd ideal as she had a shardblade that I think she'd never beared before).  On her WoR chapter (and I think it's cannon) she never used Transportation before,  which further intensify my guess she was still on her 2nd ideal. 

 

Renarin scene really looked like a 4th ideal scene, although I can be wrong 

[Halyo_Alex]

53 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

Brandon...if you're going to keep Adolin alive, and he's going to resurrect Maya and become radiant, could you please please please have it cost him something... 

Being too late to save people with Progression? That sounds kinda cop-out-ish though...

[Karger]

3 hours ago, DeployParachute said:

Brandon...if you're going to keep Adolin alive, and he's going to resurrect Maya and become radiant, could you please please please have it cost him something... 

I am hoping forgiveness and maybe some humility.

[Isilel]

On 11.11.2020 at 7:42 PM, Nameless said:

Well, Kaladin didn't "level up" in time to save Dalinar in OB, so I would guess that he is going to swear the fourth ideal in this book, and I would guess he's going to do it at a dramatic time.

No, Dalinar leveled up in OB to save the day. That's the third time in a row that a power-up in a nick of time was used to solve the climax of a book. This is becoming seriously repetitive, IMHO - time to try something new. If Kaladin will indeed be Dalinar's champion, he'll get his chance again (for the third time!) in book 5.

 

Quote

Also, how many people are goig to sacrifice themselves to use Nightblood, as without investiture he will eat your soul very quickly

 

I wonder if Zahel's method of infusing stormlight is going to be disrupted, given that it doesn't depend on a spren bond. Beyond that, I have to think about the "Zatoichi" series of Japanese katana films. The titular character in it is a blind swordsman and many of his moves have him only partially unsheathe his sword. Nightblood is a very different blade, of course, but if somebody invented similar techniques for it, it could be used relatively safely without the massive investiture influx. And as it happens, Szeth is a martial artist who had little to do for a whole year and must have been considering how he could use Nightblood in non-suicidal ways without having oceans of stormlight at his disposal. And maybe his odd revival, that Zahel specifically pointed out for some reason in chapter 15, will also become somehow significant?

Now, I don't think of it as a serious possibility, but while Lift's access to surges was affected by the Radiance supression fabrial, I don't think that her ability to turn food into investiture should be. I have  entertained the idea that adult Lift might become a bearer of Nightblood, given their chemistry in OB, but it is hugely unlikely that Sanderson goes in this direction in RoW, while she is still a kid.

Edited November 13, 2020 by Isilel

[Samrat]

14 hours ago, IcaroRibeiro said:

I'm under impression Truthwatcher spren are just picky choosing their Radiants. So far all them seem to cater people who look forward others. They also looks more lonely Wolf type, not getting many squires and not attracting many other of their kind, so they are far more split in the world compared to Windrunners and Edgedancers

Be it doesn't imply their kind are against forming nahel bond, not as strong as Inkspren at least

Agreed about Stonewards though, but we know close to nothing about them 

 

Edit: we also don't know the population of each True Spren, there are hints Radiants orders were never even in numbers of members, although Dalinar visions gave us hints of an Stoneward army 

Many died during recreance.... And we know by spren communities that they reproduce (maybe wrong term but anyway u get it) slowly....very few Honorspren we're created by Stormfather after recreance. So...

How many Stonespren (u get it, Stoneward spren) are actually left and risking to bond with Humans?

Clearly they are not offended like Honorspren... because the coalition is sending those orders whose radiant spren we're willing to bond...so Stonespren are cool, have no problem. What I am saying is, are they afraid to bond because many of their kin became deadeyes post recreance? If I were in their shoes and asked to bond a likely KR candidate, I would be like "Oh Hell no!"

[Halyo_Alex]

8 hours ago, Isilel said:

I have  entertained the idea that adult Lift might become a bearer of Nightblood, given their chemistry in OB, but it is hugely unlikely that Sanderson goes in this direction in RoW, while she is still a kid.

I want to see this in book 6 now... Storm you and your fun ideas.

[silver-the-ridgerunner]

On 11/10/2020 at 9:24 AM, HipsterStick said:

I don’t think I’ve ever given Navani enough credit, she’s clearly more of a genius than I thought.

"The truth was, she merely knew how to harness the genius of others."

This sounds a lot like UNITE THEM. And harnessing sounds a lot like BINDING. 

[Halyo_Alex]

27 minutes ago, silver-the-thruhiker said:

"The truth was, she merely knew how to harness the genius of others."

This sounds a lot like UNITE THEM. And harnessing sounds a lot like BINDING. 

Is it somehow possible that the Unite Dawnshard is distributed among the 3 Bondsmith spren?

[silver-the-ridgerunner]

3 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Is it somehow possible that the Unite Dawnshard is distributed among the 3 Bondsmith spren?

Great idea! Oh, hey, I think maybe we can ride this train of thought even further.

It is hinted (known?) that Ishar, AKA the Big Boi Bondsmith, was the one who forged the Oathpact.

We know that the Oathpact binds Odium - binds even the Shards.

This seems like the sort of thing that one might accomplish - might only accomplish - using a Dawnshard.

This might also explain why Ishar is acting as the God-Priest of Tukar. He may no longer hold the Dawnshard (or Splinter thereof) that is UNITY. But he held it so long that it imprinted him - rather as Hoid was imprinted by whatever Dawnshard he once held.

[Halyo_Alex]

2 hours ago, silver-the-thruhiker said:

Great idea! Oh, hey, I think maybe we can ride this train of thought even further.

It is hinted (known?) that Ishar, AKA the Big Boi Bondsmith, was the one who forged the Oathpact.

We know that the Oathpact binds Odium - binds even the Shards.

This seems like the sort of thing that one might accomplish - might only accomplish - using a Dawnshard.

This might also explain why Ishar is acting as the God-Priest of Tukar. He may no longer hold the Dawnshard (or Splinter thereof) that is UNITY. But he held it so long that it imprinted him - rather as Hoid was imprinted by whatever Dawnshard he once held.

I like it!

Maybe to truly defeat Odium we must unite these 4 bondsmiths (and that includes returning Ishar's Honorblade to him) to wield Unity against him.

[Kuram]

Some people here saying the battle for the tower is going to happen in part five... am I the only one here who thinks its going to be much earlier?  Part two or three, even...

[Zedseayou]

3 hours ago, Kuram said:

Some people here saying the battle for the tower is going to happen in part five... am I the only one here who thinks its going to be much earlier?  Part two or three, even...

The tower appears to be the primary plot, so I anticipate multiple conflicts there. A first foray as mentioned by Raboniel, but that won't be the big battle.