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RoW Chapter 19 Discussion


Jofwu

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Actually about the Stonewards. Or more, precisely, about the Truthwatchers. The idea was to send Radiants whose spren haven't broken with the rest of their kind- and hence Why Shallan and Godeke, because the Cryptics and Cultivationspren are board with the whole 'bring back the Radiants' idea, whereas the Inkspren and Honorspren largely aren't. 

But then why a Truthwatcher and a Stoneward? Are their spren also largely on board with the Radiants? If so, why do they only have three Truthwatchers? And given the way they haven't been mentioned at all before now, there don't seem to be a large number of Stonewards either. 

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Ohhh... The Fused when they talked about, they were wary of radiants who have sworn the fourth oath. And by now it seems the only "main character" who stays in the city will be Kaladin... => He's going to swear his fourth ideal when the city gets attacked, he will sacrifice someone and that will enable him to save the city? Something like that ~  

Suddenly with a freaking shardplate he can mow them down. Although, now that I think about it, Windrunners do not profit at much from the shardplate as (potentially) other orders because they lose the ability to maneuver. Still... that's how I envision it to go down. 

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1 hour ago, JoyBlu said:

I’m pretty sure it is because both the fabrial and the column had four matching garnets on them in a similar pattern. I wish it would have been called Four Garnets to throw in a reference to the ending of the chapter. 

Yes, of course, but I don’t think that’s all. A chapter title has more meanings than something only mentioned in three spots.

It MIGHT hint at the not so obvious importance of it, though. 

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Can we quickly talk about Dalinar becoming a religious figure? 

 

I mean it's understandable that people might see him as the Almighty made human considering his bond to the storm father, and he's created a compelling, unspeakably unique text. This might mean that men go back to not writing as Dalinar is seen as so divine the restrictions don't apply to him, which isn't the case for others, or it could mean that more men write- most probably both but in different locations and to different extents. 

 

How will mainstream vorinism react to this? Could they be forced to integrate some of this Dalinar cult or would it just increase the antipathy felt towards Kholins by vorins.

 

How does Dalinar himself react? He'll try to ignore it for as long as he can but at some point just ignoring them is support for their existence. 

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5 hours ago, Schneeente said:

Although, now that I think about it, Windrunners do not profit at much from the shardplate as (potentially) other orders because they lose the ability to maneuver. 

Dead plate certainly intereferes with both a Windrunner's lashings as well as use of surges when wielding Jezrien's Honorblade (according to Szeth). And while the Windrunner Radiant from Dalinar's vision could not lash his companion Radiant while he was wearing plate, the Windrunner Radiant was wearing his own plate without any observable ill effects. It would be exceedingly strange for a core component of the magic system to interfere with itself, or somehow lessen its effects, especially when it is granted only with higher progression. 

Edited by Czernobog
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18 hours ago, Nameless said:

Why is that a Dawnshard spoiler?

Because I'm paranoid and (for sure lite Dawnshard spoiler)

Spoiler

I got the idea from Huio swearing the 3rd before Lopen.

 

1 hour ago, Czernobog said:

It would be exceedingly strange for a core component of the magic system to interfere with itself, or somehow lessen its effects, especially when it is granted only with higher progression. 

I believe we saw that "live" plate also interfered with Lashing, via Dalinar's flashback when he brought in Fen (i.e. when Dalinar was the female Surgebinder).

Chapter 34, Page 352 of Oathbringer

Quote

You haven't summoned your armor yet; you had to dismiss it so I could Lash you.

 

Edited by Govir
Avoid double post
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25 minutes ago, Govir said:

I believe we saw that "live" plate also interfered with Lashing, via Dalinar's flashback when he brought in Fen (i.e. when Dalinar was the female Surgebinder).

No.  You can't lash someone else when they are in plate.  The Windrunner's own armor worked fine as it was keyed correctly to their identity.

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22 minutes ago, Govir said:

I believe we saw that "live" plate also interfered with Lashing, via Dalinar's flashback when he brought in Fen (i.e. when Dalinar was the female Surgebinder).

It interfered with the Windrunner's ability to lash the other Radiant, yes, but the Windrunner himself was wearing his full plate. The other Radiant's plate provides protection against lashings, but the Windrunner's wearing plate does not interfere with the Windrunner's ability to apply lashings. My point is that a Windrunner's Plate is highly unlikely to interfere with the Winderunner's agility and ability to apply lashings. i.e. Khaladin in Plate would likely be more agile/deadly, not less so.

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7 hours ago, Schneeente said:

Ohhh... The Fused when they talked about, they were wary of radiants who have sworn the fourth oath. And by now it seems the only "main character" who stays in the city will be Kaladin... => He's going to swear his fourth ideal when the city gets attacked, he will sacrifice someone and that will enable him to save the city? Something like that ~  

Suddenly with a freaking shardplate he can mow them down. Although, now that I think about it, Windrunners do not profit at much from the shardplate as (potentially) other orders because they lose the ability to maneuver. Still... that's how I envision it to go down. 

Or this perfect setup occurs and Kaladin again fails to swear the oath while Moash presumably kills his parents.  Because if there's one truth about the Stormlight Archives it's that Kaladin must suffer.

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1 hour ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Or this perfect setup occurs and Kaladin again fails to swear the oath while Moash presumably kills his parents.  Because if there's one truth about the Stormlight Archives it's that Kaladin must suffer.

My preference would be for the normal people and the de-powered Radiants to deal with the Fused using the new fabrials and their own ingenuity*. And for Navani to bond the Sibling/ Kaladin to swear his Fourth Ideal if he does, only after the immediate crisis has been averted. I am really tired of Kaladin leveling up in the nick of time and saving the day. Let him be one of the many contributing to victory, instead of the the lone super-hero. IMHO the anti-Odium's side historically depending on the Heralds/Radiants so much was a trap that led to the repeated destruction of their civilization. Even at their height the Radiants weren't numerous enough to protect infrastructure.

*and liberal application of Nightblood, of course.

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10 hours ago, Gilphon said:

Actually about the Stonewards. Or more, precisely, about the Truthwatchers. The idea was to send Radiants whose spren haven't broken with the rest of their kind- and hence Why Shallan and Godeke, because the Cryptics and Cultivationspren are board with the whole 'bring back the Radiants' idea, whereas the Inkspren and Honorspren largely aren't. 

Wyndle was more or less ordered. There is no reason to think that other kinds of Spren would go that far.

10 hours ago, Gilphon said:

But then why a Truthwatcher and a Stoneward? Are their spren also largely on board with the Radiants? If so, why do they only have three Truthwatchers? And given the way they haven't been mentioned at all before now, there don't seem to be a large number of Stonewards either. 

There is no reason to think that all kinds of Spren are equally numerous.

9 hours ago, Schneeente said:

Suddenly with a freaking shardplate he can mow them down. Although, now that I think about it, Windrunners do not profit at much from the shardplate as (potentially) other orders because they lose the ability to maneuver. Still... that's how I envision it to go down. 

Why? They fly by falling. Objects fall equally fast regardless of mass. They demonstrated that during Apollo on the Moon even.

And Plate enhances you physically.

 

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On 10.11.2020 at 6:39 PM, Bliev said:

I think Queen Fen's comment re: navies is apropos here too--windrunners are needed to prevent aerial attacks. The coalition doesn't have any other aerial fighters than the Windrunners.

For now. Remember that little experimental conjoiner box? Im the only one who see this as prototype of flying suit - attatch something like that to back of exosuit, maybe with wings, and control device tied to the helmet - and we have flying soldiers. Not as good as windrunners, but they dont need spen, just suit.

Overall, im very exited to see how fabrial technology will change life on Roshar. It is similar to electricity in our world.

I also think that Raboniel will be the one who will "teach" Navani how to awaken Tower.

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2 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Or this perfect setup occurs and Kaladin again fails to swear the oath while Moash presumably kills his parents.  Because if there's one truth about the Stormlight Archives it's that Kaladin must suffer.

To be fair, life kinda sucks for everyone in SA. lol They're all suffering. Pool Kal just has clinical depression on top of the whole apocalypse thing. ;-)

But I think Moash won't kill his parent(s)--my pie in the sky guess is that Kal will swear his 4th ideal when he accepts his father's choice to sacrifice himself for his family, but that his mother and his brother survive and then as Moash turns to Kal, his plate will protect him.

It's possible that Brandon will grant Kal a reprieve by making Lirin an edgedancer or some such, paralleling the major "failure" Kal feels by seeing Elhokar murdered as he was speaking the first ideal, by letting Lirin finish it and survive. 

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11 minutes ago, Isilel said:

My preference would be for the normal people and the de-powered Radiants to deal with the Fused using the new fabrials and their own ingenuity*. And for Navani to bond the Sibling/ Kaladin to swear his Fourth Ideal if he does, only after the immediate crisis has been averted. I am really tired of Kaladin leveling up in the nick of time and saving the day. Let him be one of the many contributing to victory, instead of the the lone super-hero. IMHO the anti-Odium's side historically depending on the Heralds/Radiants so much was a trap that led to the repeated destruction of their civilization. Even at their height the Radiants weren't numerous enough to protect infrastructure.

Well, Kaladin didn't "level up" in time to save Dalinar in OB, so I would guess that he is going to swear the fourth ideal in this book, and I would guess he's going to do it at a dramatic time. I doubt he's going to be a "lone superhero" that sigle-handedly saves everyone. I would guess that he and maybe Navani will recapture the heart of Urithiru and turn off the blocker, and then Adoling and Shallan will arrive with all the honorspren, making a bunch of new Radiants and saving the day. As for the ancient people relying too much on Radiants and Heralds, I think that they had to rely on them, but we haven't seen any evidence that they were overly dependent on them. They didn't have Radiants at first, only the heralds, and while they did rely on the Radiants, We haven't seen enough of the ancients strategies to make a judgement either way. (Also, how many people are goig to sacrifice themselves to use Nightblood, as without investiture he will eat your soul very quickly)

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13 hours ago, SpeakoftheDeval said:

Can we quickly talk about Dalinar becoming a religious figure? 

 

I mean it's understandable that people might see him as the Almighty made human considering his bond to the storm father, and he's created a compelling, unspeakably unique text. This might mean that men go back to not writing as Dalinar is seen as so divine the restrictions don't apply to him, which isn't the case for others, or it could mean that more men write- most probably both but in different locations and to different extents. 

 

How will mainstream vorinism react to this? Could they be forced to integrate some of this Dalinar cult or would it just increase the antipathy felt towards Kholins by vorins.

 

How does Dalinar himself react? He'll try to ignore it for as long as he can but at some point just ignoring them is support for their existence. 

Brandon Sanderson does indeed pull a lot from his own religious background for his material. As someone of the same faith, it's sometimes really apparent.

A man claims to have visions from God, puts out a book, and leads a new religious movement? Admittedly that's pretty similar to many religions when they start.

I wonder if Dalinar will institute a priesthood or hierarchy, or if others will institute one without his say... I wonder what his reaction would be to people making him into a religious leader without him asking them to. I don't think it's fair to call the Knights Radiant a religious order, so I wouldn't say that he's already building a religion deliberately.

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9 minutes ago, scm288 said:

I wonder if Dalinar will institute a priesthood or hierarchy, or if others will institute one without his say... I wonder what his reaction would be to people making him into a religious leader without him asking them to. I don't think it's fair to call the Knights Radiant a religious order, so I wouldn't say that he's already building a religion deliberately.

I'd like to think that Dalinar and Ishar meet, and Ishar is surprisingly sane.

"Good work you've done here," he says to Dalinar, "but a little sloppy. See, as a Bondsmith you need to bind people in a hierarchy underneath you. Compare to what I've done," he continues, vaguely gesturing at the country that worships him as God-king. "See what you can accomplish if you put your mind to it. If you're going to be a Bondsmith without Honor, at least do it properly."

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11 hours ago, Bliev said:

To be fair, life kinda sucks for everyone in SA. lol They're all suffering. Pool Kal just has clinical depression on top of the whole apocalypse thing. ;-)

But I think Moash won't kill his parent(s)--my pie in the sky guess is that Kal will swear his 4th ideal when he accepts his father's choice to sacrifice himself for his family, but that his mother and his brother survive and then as Moash turns to Kal, his plate will protect him.

It's possible that Brandon will grant Kal a reprieve by making Lirin an edgedancer or some such, paralleling the major "failure" Kal feels by seeing Elhokar murdered as he was speaking the first ideal, by letting Lirin finish it and survive. 

Lirin has more Truthwatcher to him than an Edgedancer....

TW attributes - Learned and Giving.

Knows surgery and teaches Kaladin....

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4 hours ago, Debarra said:

I think a schism may be more likely. No one side can really over power the other and they have no real reason to adopt the others beliefs. I see this kind of becoming a New and Old Testament kind of deal, especially when one considers it's unlikely Dalinar's book will be the only one considered a religious document in time to come.

Let’s just hope we can avoid the whole appropriation “it’s not your religion anymore and since you don’t like our variant we’re going to murder you repeatedly for the next 2000 years or so” thing that happened IRL, right?

Edited by Kingsdaughter613
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7 hours ago, Samrat said:

Lirin has more Truthwatcher to him than an Edgedancer....

TW attributes - Learned and Giving.

Knows surgery and teaches Kaladin....

Agreed - if Lirin does become a healing Radiant it's definitely Truthwatcher.  He's not the touchy-feely "listen to the forgotten" type.  If someone comes to him with an emotional hurt he's going to be more like, "Get over it kid, you survived!  Next!!!"  

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1 hour ago, agrabes said:

Agreed - if Lirin does become a healing Radiant it's definitely Truthwatcher.  He's not the touchy-feely "listen to the forgotten" type.  If someone comes to him with an emotional hurt he's going to be more like, "Get over it kid, you survived!  Next!!!"  

lol I just pictured him saying this. It fits.

Although maybe there's an anti-Wyndle cultivation spren out there who is more lenient on the whole touchy-feely stuff haha. "Forgotten? You know who's forgotten? ME I AM FORGOTTEN. Not even my children listen to me..."

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9 minutes ago, Bliev said:

lol I just pictured him saying this. It fits.

Although maybe there's an anti-Wyndle cultivation spren out there who is more lenient on the whole touchy-feely stuff haha. "Forgotten? You know who's forgotten? ME I AM FORGOTTEN. Not even my children listen to me..."

Just at this moment the voice of a ranting gilbert gottfried popped into my head! 

That would actually play really well and allow for a different type of interpretation of the Edgedancer oaths.

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2 hours ago, Bliev said:

lol I just pictured him saying this. It fits.

Although maybe there's an anti-Wyndle cultivation spren out there who is more lenient on the whole touchy-feely stuff haha. "Forgotten? You know who's forgotten? ME I AM FORGOTTEN. Not even my children listen to me..."

Haha yeah now that would be great.  Third Oath: "I will listen to myself! The one who's been the most ignored of all!"

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On 11/11/2020 at 4:37 AM, Gilphon said:

Actually about the Stonewards. Or more, precisely, about the Truthwatchers. The idea was to send Radiants whose spren haven't broken with the rest of their kind- and hence Why Shallan and Godeke, because the Cryptics and Cultivationspren are board with the whole 'bring back the Radiants' idea, whereas the Inkspren and Honorspren largely aren't. 

But then why a Truthwatcher and a Stoneward? Are their spren also largely on board with the Radiants? If so, why do they only have three Truthwatchers? And given the way they haven't been mentioned at all before now, there don't seem to be a large number of Stonewards either. 

I'm under impression Truthwatcher spren are just picky choosing their Radiants. So far all them seem to cater people who look forward others. They also looks more lonely Wolf type, not getting many squires and not attracting many other of their kind, so they are far more split in the world compared to Windrunners and Edgedancers

Be it doesn't imply their kind are against forming nahel bond, not as strong as Inkspren at least

Agreed about Stonewards though, but we know close to nothing about them 

 

Edit: we also don't know the population of each True Spren, there are hints Radiants orders were never even in numbers of members, although Dalinar visions gave us hints of an Stoneward army 

Edited by IcaroRibeiro
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I have been thinking about this for a while but does anyone else find this "smart" Taravangian way less intimidating then his old "stupid" self?  Sure it is partially that his cover is blown but I think it is more that this new version is not particularly adept at understanding people the way he used to be.  His old self's words and belifes had a deep effect on Dalinar.  His new self just seems to go for shock value like a Bond villain.

Edited by Karger
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