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RoW Chapter 19 Discussion


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2 minutes ago, lightweaver spy said:

If you’ll don your aluminum hat with me - isn’t it odd that Taravangian no longer requires aides and is, according to Navani, very lucid and present basically all the time now? Shouldn’t he still be having his “stupid” compassion days?

I don't think that his intelligence is truly random.

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22 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

I thought brandon said that each part was supposed to culminate in their own little climax?

that was rather anticlimactic, as far as this novels been going so far

Brandon has said he switched things up with Part 1 in RoW. It began with a climax with the battle at Hearthstone and Shallan's confrontation with the Sons of Honor and settled in to what feels like the post climax of a book. This is supposed to feel like the end of a story we were told through character introspection, not really the beginning of this story. There are neither endings nor beginnings to the turning of the Wheel of TIme, but it was a beginning. 

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5 hours ago, RamonaTehradin said:

After reading Dawnshard and effects of Aluminum, it made me wonder if...a Surgebinder/Radiant wears gauntlets made of aluminum, would it block the screaming they hear of dead sprens in their mind? Maybe it could give a chance to wield deadeye Shardblades. 

Yeah, but that's kind of like the IRL version of saying, "If Marines shoved their fists down the throat of a living kitten to wear like a glove, then they would gain magical powers that would allow them to block bullets."

The point is that kitten murder is gruesome and sick, not the nonsense about blocking bullets with kittens... that isn't a thing; don't try that at home kids. 

Edited by KidWayne
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1) Suppression fabrial pattern also on the gem pillar in Urithiru, completely confirming what Raboniel said about how the Radiant suppression fabrial was developed, Urithiru used them against the Unmade & Fused & other forces of Odium. It also houses a spren but in the Cognitive Realm (like Soulcasters & Oathgates), they are Corrupted & seem to be willingly working for Odium. Might be relevant that the suppression fabrial uses garnets. Also notable, Soulcaster spren are insensate but Oathgate spren or suppression fabrial spren aren't. It appears this is how sapient spren are used for fabrials, it locks them in the Cognitive.

2) Stormlight energy into mechanical energy....

Navani wants to harvest kinetic energy and electrical energy from the Highstorm!

Well, Navani found a use for one of the architectural oddities of Urithiru, the deep shafts (and it makes so much sense in retrospect)

If aluminium can be used in fabrials to block force sent along one direction, can it be fine tuned towards similar purposes for other, less mechanical, more human Invested Arts as well.

Also really hope we get some more magi tech this in the Lost Metal.

3) Taravangian and Navani butt heads, I like scenes like this, also it's nice to see some consequences because I feel like a lot of stuff was sidelined in the face of the greater threat. 

4) Nice to see Noura and Yanagawn again. Ah the Radiant Orders attend the meetings, makes sense, looking forward to all the Orders being gathered together!

5) Hmm, looks like we might finally meet Ishar in this book

Taravangian support for focusing on Emul & Tukar is obviously suspicious

Also how do the Windrunners fend off Skybreakers? I'm wondering because Division

6) And we officially get the proposal that led to the coverart of this book

7) Navani getting over her biases, she was already open-minded but also traditional, and it's wonderful to see this happening all among the cast. We've got Kaladin & Adolin having these moments the most prominently so far

8) Wait what?! One Stoneward! The Stonewards are back too!

Also how did the Truthwatcher spren, Cultivationspren and the Cryptics know of the approaching Desolation, that's something that hasn't been answered. Cultivation's influence? She is supposed to be good at foresight. Also, another mention to how understanding they've been of the circumstances, not that the reactions of the other spren aren't justified

9) "many who had broken off from mainstream Vorinism were treating his autobiography as a religious text" I need more info here!

Also some Navani politicking appreciation, she's been doing it since Gavilar

10) anyone who reads a lo has learned to watch out for the characters who believe in doing bad things for the greater good. It's nice to see more discussion on it by the other characters but we know how these things usually turn out. Crossing my fingers for that Cultivation long con

11) Dalinar's arms, eh? Navani's one lucky lady

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Adolin "has wanted to get back into Shadesmar for months now." To see Maya as a spren? To check on her condition?

Have I missed something? How are Navani's scholars able to check on things from the Shadesmar side, and how are they planning to enter Shadesmar with their expedition to Lasting Integrity?

"...many who had broken off from mainstream Vorinism were treating [Dalinar's] autobiography as a religious text." Whoa Nellie.

Dalinar is not stupid. He recognizes that he and Jasnah may well be getting pulled out by Taravangian to Emul for a trap. What he doesn't realize is that the trap is not for them.

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3 minutes ago, Honorless said:

7) Navani getting over her biases, she was already open-minded but also traditional, and it's wonderful to see this happening all among the cast. We've got Kaladin & Adolin having these moments the most prominently so far

 

I love seeing their internal struggles with change, even as the world changes around them. It adds such nice depth to the story. I can see why Brandon presumably enjoyed writing Navani so much in this book.

1 minute ago, robardin said:

Adolin "has wanted to get back into Shadesmar for months now." To see Maya as a spren? To check on her condition?

 

That's what I think. I think this, combined with his conversation/argument in the pub with Kaladin suggests as much. We may not see much from his POV during their expedition, but it gives a good pretense for why he might not notice some of Shallan's struggles as they travel, if he's distracted by his investment in Maya. 

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11 minutes ago, robardin said:

Have I missed something? How are Navani's scholars able to check on things from the Shadesmar side, and how are they planning to enter Shadesmar with their expedition to Lasting Integrity?

Radiants with the surges of Transportation or Transformation have the ability to peak into Shadesmar, so it's possible they just get the aid of Jasnah or a Lightweaver.

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1 hour ago, robardin said:

Rushu speaks of inspecting the fabrials "from Shadesmar" - how are they doing this? With Jasnah's help? Because the Oathgates are still forbidden from transporting directly between the Physical and Cognitive Realms, are they not?

16 minutes ago, robardin said:

Have I missed something? How are Navani's scholars able to check on things from the Shadesmar side, and how are they planning to enter Shadesmar with their expedition to Lasting Integrity?

Back in chapter nine:

Quote

For years, they’d assumed no spren were trapped in Soulcasting devices. But with the Oathgates, Navani could travel into Shadesmar—and everything in the Physical Realm reflected there. Human beings manifested as floating candle flames. Spren manifested as larger, or more complete versions of what was seen in the Physical Realm.

I don't think there's been any explanation on what changed yet. I feel like people discussed this back in that thread, but the theory I had was Dalinar has the credentials to lift the prohibition Honor placed on the Oatgate spren. At the end of Oathbringer, Odium expected Dalinar to be capable of releasing him from what presumably holds him in Roshar, and that is likely from Honor. Also Dalinar can summon Honor's perpindicularity at will now. Given that, I imagine Oathgate spren would follow his orders to allow travel back in Shadesmar.

Edited by Energy Surge
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On 10/11/2020 at 11:50 AM, lightweaver spy said:

If you’ll don your aluminum hat with me - isn’t it odd that Taravangian no longer requires aides and is, according to Navani, very lucid and present basically all the time now? Shouldn’t he still be having his “stupid” compassion days?

Nice catch! Your comment made me think that maybe it's Odium "filling" those intelligence "gaps".

Edited by broccoli
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1 minute ago, Energy Surge said:

Back in chapter nine: "Navani could travel into Shadesmar—and everything in the Physical Realm reflected there..."

I don't think there's been any explanation on what changed yet. I feel like people discussed this back in that thread, but the theory I had was Dalinar has the credentials to lift the prohibition Honor placed on the Oatgate spren. At the end of Oathbringer, Odium expected Dalinar to be capable of releasing him from what presumably holds him in Roshar, and that is likely from Honor. Also Dalinar can summon Honor's perpindicularity at will now. given that, I imagine Oathgate spren would follow his orders to allow travel back in Shadesmar.

Right, I thought I remembered reading something in the early RoW chapters about the Oathgates transporting to Shadesmar and thinking, "hey, you can't just leave it at that!", but there it is.

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42 minutes ago, Govir said:

Isn't this exactly what the Fused wanted, to get the Bondsmith and Elsecaller out of the tower? It definitely makes you think that Taravangian is still working directly with the Fused.

I straight up interpreted that Taravangian approved the attack on Emul because Raboniel and the Fused ordered him try to take Dalinar and Jasnah off the tower.

 

PD: I don't know if you are from Argentina, but I like your name ;)

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Not only does that the coalition have Stonewards, but we will likely see how their surges work in the text. Hopefully, four other characters tagging along with Adolin and Shallan on yet another journey through Shadesmar will make it more dynamic.

Also, we should start placing bets on which Radiant will die on the expedition to Lasting Integrity. I bet on the Truthwatcher.

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37 minutes ago, lightweaver spy said:

So you are implying that this is all part of the plan on Cultivation’s part then? 

Maybe.

4 minutes ago, ScadrianTank said:

Also, we should start placing bets on which Radiant will die on the expedition to Lasting Integrity. I bet on the Truthwatcher.

Those are pretty hard to kill.

Edited by Karger
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And so the pieces are in play. Shadesmar expedition! Taravangian remains one of my favorite characters, as always. Different moral philosophies engaging never ceases to delight me. These fabrial discoveries are groundbreaking. Aluminum interacting with Investiture is also intriguing. Is it only beneficial in circumstances of motion or can it be used in other contexts?

Also, cults! I love cults!

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6 minutes ago, broccoli said:

I straight up interpreted that Taravangian approved the attack on Emul because Raboniel and the Fused ordered him try to take Dalinar and Jasnah off the tower.

 

Same. I loved seeing it via Navani's perspective though, knowing what we know about the goals of the Fused. Poor Navani. Left behind with a demoted Kaladin and an outcast Renarin? Definitely setting up for a huge attack on Urithiru in the climax, maybe with Navani activating Urithiru.

Makes me wonder about Navani's critic though. I've thought of a sleepless as a possibility for awhile and (Dawnshard spoilers) 

Spoiler

Nikki calling Navani the "Mother of Machines" and using such a pregnant pause in confirming they knew of her is telling, I think, about their role in this.

But what's the end game here? She is unsure of what they're offended by: sapient spren fabrials? the use of aluminum? what?

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Adolin's plot was claimed to be rather convenient...

Spoiler

The golden boy's gonna revive Maya! Right in face of Honorspren while Stormfather would grumble his approval in reluctance. 

Lift not being taken to Shadesmar? Main Interlude character maybe? 

I personally don't think Dalinar would perish until book 5, especially after 'ascending' as Odium claims but we don't know what actually that means. Also, what about the distant light he sees? Spiritual Realm maybe? Or...

Spoiler

A Dawnshard?

Venli's spren might explain Glys' 'special circumstance'? 

Navani may come up with Voidlight supressor fabrials of her own to leave Fused baffled. 

Kaladin swears 4th Ideal finally accepting he cannot save everyone...? I'm confident he won't be 'healing from different injury' by taking surgeon as profession. He has to be back on battleground!

 

 

Edited by RamonaTehradin
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19 minutes ago, broccoli said:

I straight up interpreted that Taravangian approved the attack on Emul because Raboniel and the Fused ordered him try to take Dalinar and Jasnah off the tower.

That is absolutely how I read it as well.

Raboniel said back in Ch. 14,
 

Quote

"We will need to lure the Elsecaller and the Bondsmith away. Their oaths may be advanced enough to push through the suppression, much as the Unmade have done at the tower in the past. With them gone, I can lead a force into Urithiru and seize it from within—and the Radiants will be unable to resist. ...

"I will lead a team into the tower, then secure control of the Sibling’s heart. Using my natural talents, and the gifts of Odium, I will corrupt that heart, and turn the tower to our needs. The humans will fall; their powers will not work, but ours will. From there I suspect that—with a little time—I can learn much studying the gemstones at the Sibling’s heart. Perhaps enough to create new weapons against the Radiants and the humans.

"We will use the king who has given himself to us... He has delivered intelligence about guard patterns. We don’t need to take the entire tower at first—we simply need to get to the heart and use my knowledge turn the defenses to our advantage.”

...

“Your proposal is bold, Raboniel,” one of the Nine said. “And decisive. We have long been without your guidance in this Return, and we welcome your Passion. We will move forward as you request. Prepare a team for your infiltration of the tower, and we shall contact the human Taravangian with instructions. He can divert the Bondsmith and Elsecaller.

In terms of trapping the singers against Emul, do we know if Tukar has been fighting them and Dalinar both in a three-way war? I am forgetting already!

Edited by robardin
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Quote

“It’s really not that bad,” Adolin said. “Assuming we’re not being chased the entire time, I think it might be fun.”

There’s something there, Navani thought, reading the boy’s excitement. He’s wanted to get back into Shadesmar for months now.

Wants to get back into Shadesmar so he can interact with Maya, I suspect...

Oh gods...Brandon is doing it. He's really going to make the Maya plot point the thing that saves the envoy and brings the Honorspren back into allegiance with the humans. Adolin Kholin, the hero for the ages, I'm sure the Honorspren are going to love him. Such a monumental role tied to a character with the development depth of the coffee I spilled on my desk. Wonderful...

Also, Kaladin is considered Grade-A cremhole to the spren of his own order. I actually like that, it'll make his next arc that much more satisfying upon completion.

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