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Anyone else reminded of another mural?


mdross81

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The metal plate, which we never hear of again, inscribed with a strange language. If anything is connected, it’s probably that. The fact that Wax never seems to see that plate is very telling. That would be just like Brandon; mention something important in passing, so we can go back later and cry in awe at his foreshadowing.

I mean, “They say I will hold the future of the entire world on my arms.”

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12 hours ago, mdross81 said:
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"You are fools!" Miles yelled at he firing squad. "One day, the men of gold and red, bearers of the final metal, will come to you. And you will be ruled by them.

...

"Worship," Miles said, his voice failing, his mouth soaked with blood. "Worship Trell and wait..."

Anyway, just wanted to put this out there because it seems like a significant number of similarities.

Bearers of the final metal. Bearer of the First Gem. See something there? The latter is a title attributed to Hoid, who has been confirmed to have held a Dawnshard at some point, so what would be the obvious line to draw with 'Bearers of the final metal'? Storms, it seems the line from Kelsier "There's always another secret" just keeps being proven...

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If Dawnshards are similar to Shards and can have an opposite, then the opposite of Rysn's Dawnshard of Change would be, as discussed in other threads, Dawnshard of Not Change, Staying the Same, Remain, or, my favorite, Survive.

While I'm not sure there's much evidence for it as of yet, Scadrial does seem to be a likely location for another Dawnshard, as it's a major player in the cosmere, and what other Dawnshard then a Survival one?

So... did Kelsier get his hands on a the Dawnshard of Survival?

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Why would Kelsier put the bands in a temple that already existed? They weren't just there to be hidden, but to be found. The writing is on the mural is definitely interesting, but why would he give up the Dawnshard of he found it? I'm also curious when it was confirmed that Hoid held a Dawnshard. My guess is that he has the one of Fortune, so would that make the opposite one chance?

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34 minutes ago, Verily said:

I'm also curious when it was confirmed that Hoid held a Dawnshard.

Sanderson's annotations on Reddit. The Coppermind has the three annotations. Be careful about the Q&A section if you're not reading the preview chapters. I was spoiled on something there...

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/443-dawnshard-annotations/

 

44 minutes ago, Verily said:

My guess is that he has the one of Fortune, so would that make the opposite one chance?

I'm not sure I agree with this, but you make a very interesting point/theory. Also, welcome to the Shard! 

 

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23 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

I'm not sure I agree with this, but you make a very interesting point/theory.

I think he held the Dawnshard of Creation (Create instead of Change) and that's why he literally can't hurt living things, it goes against the Command of the Dawnshard.

(Edit: Oh hey my 1,000th 17th shard post, neat)

Edited by Halyo_Alex
neat
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31 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

Sanderson's annotations on Reddit. The Coppermind has the three annotations. Be careful about the Q&A section if you're not reading the preview chapters. I was spoiled on something there...

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/443-dawnshard-annotations/

 

I'm not sure I agree with this, but you make a very interesting point/theory. Also, welcome to the Shard! 

Thanks for the welcome! I've been a lurker for far too long. Lol This link is great. I'd never read these WoB before. The fact that he's no longer a Dawnshard makes more sense, because I was confused about how he could interact with Preservation's bead and Elhokar's spren if Dawnshards can't/shouldn't be interacting with the investiture of different shards.

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On 11/11/2020 at 8:17 PM, Verily said:

why would he give up the Dawnshard of he found it?

Perhaps it's for the same reason that Rysn was told never to bond a Spren. Perhaps the Bands were a source (even as a repository) of Investiture, which would have given a Dawnshard-bearer too much power. 

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Through my own reading and thinking, I think one of the other Dawnshards is "Survive" and now after reading the OP, I think Kelsier IS the "Survive" Dawnshard. That final scene in Bands of Mourning....

Survive!

I was getting goosebumps as @mdross81 was listing the similarities. Great catch!

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I'm wondering about the painting magic thing in the Cosmere.

The painting of the Battle of Twilight Falls that Lightsong sees and the painting that Kaladin sees from the Court of Gods in Shadesmar (assuming both are not the same painting, they still have the same painter according to Brandon)

Quote

R'Shara

The two paintings--The Battle of Twilight Falls, and the one that Kaladin sees in Shadesmar. Are they the same?

Brandon Sanderson

I believe that they are, but I could have...When I wrote the original scene, I intended them to be, but I might have changed something later on. They would be by the same artist. You can say yes, unless I changed something. There was something I was thinking of changing. I'd have to go back and look at them side by side.

R'Shara

But they sounded different. One has black in it, that the other one doesn't.

Brandon Sanderson

The thing is, that artist, and people seeing it, I intend them to each see something different in the paintings they see. But I don't know that I actually decided to make that the same painting. But the same artist.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

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BlackYeti (paraphrased)

In Oathbringer, Kaladin sees a painting from the Court of Gods which, it is claimed, shows something different to every person who sees it. However, as I understand it, the Returned only see things in the paintings because of their Divine Breath, there isn't anything intrinsically magical about the paintings themselves; what then is going on with this painting?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He was very evasive here, ultimately he only said that not everything that you see is in the painting.

Oathbringer Newcastle signing (Dec. 1, 2017)

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Gordon 

The paintings (I think there were at least two, right?) that remind Lightsong of his dreams and the Manywar etc. Is the Artist someone we know? If not, will we eventually meet him/her in a later book? Does the artist hope to affect Lightsong this way, or is it just some guy giving abstract art to his God?

Jared 

Is the artist that painted those paintings Hoid?

Brandon Sanderson 

Hoid did not make the paintings. The goal of those paintings—and this is spoilery, by the way—the paintings are actually what the text implies that they are. They are abstract paintings which Lightsong, having a touch of the divine, is able to see and read into things that aren't necessarily there.

Beyond that, art is a magical thing in the world of WARBREAKER. When an artist creates a work of art, part of the artist's soul ends up in the artwork. Someone who has many breaths and who's Returned like Lightsong has the inherent ability to see into the art and perceive that. So Lightsong can interpret correctly an abstract piece, based on what the artist is trying to convey, in a way that a normal person couldn't.

I was not trying to make the artists anyone specifically important. In the case of those paintings, they are wonderful artists—I think they are two separate artists, if I'm thinking of the two paintings that you're indicating. As Lightsong has a splinter of divine nature inside him, he is able to interpret the paintings—to foresee, using them, and to see into the soul of the person who made them.

Goodreads Fantasy Book Discussion Warbreaker Q&A (Jan. 18, 2010) 

And on Reddit, Brandon said this about the mural

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asmodeus_9

Can you tell us a little bit more about what these things are? The book itself gives us a lot in very little, so it'd be nice to get some perspective on how you think about these. Not necessarily fishing for more information, just... clarity on what we just learned.

Brandon Sanderson

By "these things" do you mean the Dawnshards? In this case, I can't say more, I'm afraid. They're plot points in future books, and I maybe already explained more than I should have.

asmodeus_9

I was mostly wondering what happened in the cave. It's... it feels like the Command to change, to remake, was somehow imprinted or passed onto a mural, and then when Rysn looked at it, it passed back onto, and perhaps into her.

Where I'm a little confused is... is the Command, the Dawnshard, "binding" to her as this thing outside of her, or is it becoming a part of her? Or are these two cases, depending on how you look at this, the same thing?

Also, curious based on how the mural was described in terms of four fours, but is the number of Shards being 16 a function of how the four Dawnshards were used to Shatter?

Brandon Sanderson

Mostly RAFOs, here, I'm afraid.

To those in-world, she now IS the Dawnshard. Whether that's what the community thinks is another story.

Phantine

Would that make Hoid a "Dawnsliver", or is there some other fancypants terms for it?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on a variety of things, Phantine. But I'd be okay with that terminology. It's basically accurate.

Gale_Emchild

Does that mean that before she became the Dawnshard that the wall was?

Brandon Sanderson

More the mural. But yes, that would be the implication. Note that it was not an ordinary mural.

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020)

Representing something in a painting Connects it to you, it seems. Pattern said something similar to Shallan regarding her drawings of people, in Oathbringer. They might all be working on the same principles.

Edited by Honorless
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I don't know about Kelsier having a Dawnshard, but for sure alongside with Roshar, Scandrial could be a major candidate for having one: it could had been used to create the planet itself, and the multiple istances of "hearing" the 'SURVIVE' command could be considered clues. 

A point that coul be against the presence of a Dawnshard on Scandrial, though, is that neither Preservation nor Ruin seem ever to acknowledge or hint at it, and i would find very strange one of them could use one without the other noticing. Also, if we consider, as many of us are doing on the forum, that groups of shards are attuned each to a single Dawnshard, Ruin most likely would be tied to the one Rysn found, the 'CHANGE' one, and so if indeed the 'SURVIVE' one was on Scandrial, why then Preservation didn't use it against Ruin? Did he really just kept it hidden? Or maybe, using it would have hindered his Grand Plan of having Preservation and Ruin merged into Harmony?

Edited by Krafl
I'm bad at English :(
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1 minute ago, Krafl said:

I don't know about Kelsier having a Dawnshard, but for sure alongside with Roshar, Scandrial could be a major candidate for having one: it could had been used to create the planet itself, and the multiple istances of "hearing" the 'SURVIVE' command are likely clues. 

A point that coul be against the presence of a Dawnshard on Scandrial, though, is that neither Preservation nor Ruin seem ever to acknowledge or hint at it, and i would find very strange one of them could use one without the other noticing. Also, if we consider, as many of us are doing on the forum, that groups of shards are attuned to a Dawnshard, Ruin most likely would be tied to the one Rysn found, the 'CHANGE' one, and so if indeed the 'SURVIVE' one was on Scandrial, why then Preservation didn't use it against Ruin? Did he really just kept it hidden? Or maybe, using it would have hindered his Grand Plan of having Preservation and Ruin merged into Harmony?

Hmm... maybe? Preservation did say something weird about a weapon he buried in Secret History. Lots of people thought he was just talking about the clues he'd buried but many people (including me) were/are suspicious of that line.

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5 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Hmm... maybe? Preservation did say something weird about a weapon he buried in Secret History. Lots of people thought he was just talking about the clues he'd buried but many people (including me) were/are suspicious of that line.

Oh, i had completely forgotten that detail... Then it would completely made sense of that "weapon" being the 'SURVIVE' Dawnshard. Also, i think that my point of a Shard being not aware of a Dawnshard, does not stand up since Odium did not know of the one in Aimia.

Also: not very bright of Leras mentioning hidden weapons in front of Kelsier...:D

Edited by Krafl
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 @mdross81, great theory overall, but the one problem I see with it is that Kelsier seemed to be influenced/guided by the command SURVIVE before even he was killed by the Lord Ruler.

I don't have the ebooks for the mistborn books, so I'll leave the analysis to the rest of you crazily talented vetters of theories, but I just want to throw this out there. Leras might have hidden the Dawnshard in something that symbolized what he wanted to survive, something beautiful and worth preserving. He might have hidden the Dawnshard in the drawing of a flower that was one of the only artifacts that survived from the ancient Larastian religion (kind of sounds like Leras, right), that was special to Mare and gave her hope, and that Kelsier always kept close to himself. 

Kelsier, the Survivor who reforged himself as the fullborn demigod The Sovereign, might have divested himself of the Dawnshard and put it into that metal disk with the strange writing around it in the Sovereign's temple. 

They might have missed the true treasure in that temple when they just took the Bands of Mourning. Ironic right? 

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Thanks @hoiditthroughthegrapevine. I went back to Secret History and it certainly does suggest that Kelsier first heard the Survive Command long before he would have come into contact with a Dawnshard:

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Do better, Kelsier, Preservation commanded, his voice fading. If the end comes, get them below ground. It might help. And remember ... remember what I told you, so long ago....Do what I cannot, Kelsier....

SURVIVE.

The word vibrated through him, and Kelsier gasped. He knew that feeling, remembered the exact command. He'd heard that voice in the Pits. Waking him, driving him forward.

So that definitely throws a wrinkle in any theory about Kelsier being connected to a potential Survive Dawnshard. I'm not so wedded to the theory (and am too distracted by anticipation for ROW) to mount a vigorous defense of the theory. But I suppose I'd throw out the possibility that, just as it seems Chiri Chiri and the mandras may have led Rysn to the mural, something could have, even back in the Pits, been trying to point Kelsier in the right direction.

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