Popular Post +mdross81 Posted November 10, 2020 Popular Post Report Share Posted November 10, 2020 Beware, Wax & Wayne (particularly Bands of Mourning) spoilers below. As I reread the passage where Rysn interacts with the mural/Dawnshard, I couldn't shake the sense that we'd read about something similar before. Near the beginning of Bands of Mourning, we learn that a kandra named ReLuur had been searching for the mythical bands and returned to Elendel with a number of pictures documenting his search. Among the images were the following: A mural depicting a room with a central dais. On the dais is a pedestal, and set upon the pedestal was a pair of bracers made of delicate, curling metal, shaped in spirals (a depiction of what they thought were the Bands of Mourning) A picture of a large metal plate set into a wall and inscribed with a strange script. Neither Wax nor any of the kandra present recognize the script Another shot of the strange language A picture of a statue that resembled the Lord Ruler, bearing a long spear Another shot of the mural, more detailed, which depicted bracers with many different metals twining together Another image, of a different mural, depicting a man standing atop a peak, hands raised above him and a glowing spear hovering there, just beyond his touch. A corpse slumped at his feet. The face of the man in the mosaic had eyes upturned and lips parted as if in awe at what he held. He wore the bracers on his arms. We learn toward the end of the book that the pictures were taken at the Sovereign's Temple. Wax sees the same murals and the statue. (There's no mention in the later scene of whether the metal plate is also present, but it seems a fairly safe assumption). What's more we learn some new information about the pedestal in the temple - specifically that it features, prominently, the colors red and gold. Quote The dais here was the one depicted in the mural at the temple’s entrance. It rose from the center of the room, gilded and slender, with steps leading up to it. On it was a small square pedestal topped with red velvet and a golden rack suitable for the display of a precious relic. The temple also features a number of booby traps and decoys. We learn that the real Bands of Mourning are not the bracers but a spearhead hidden in the statute's spear. And it is at least heavily implied that the mural depicting a person is likely Kelsier, and not the Lord Ruler. So if you're playing Dawnshard connections bingo we've got: fancy murals located in hard-to-reach places featuring the colors red and gold; protected by decoys and booby traps; featuring strange languages not recognized by our main characters; hidden powerful magic objects; and murals that are associated with characters who have heard commands in their minds (CHANGE for Rysn, and SURVIVE for Kelsier) Could be nothing. But it's Brandon so it could also be something. Is this perhaps evidence that our old pal Kel has maybe been involved with a Dawnshard at some point as well? Lastly, not sure how this fits in, if at all, but there was another prominent shout-out to the red/gold color scheme back in Alloy of Law. Here's the scene in the epilogue when Miles is executed: Quote "You are fools!" Miles yelled at he firing squad. "One day, the men of gold and red, bearers of the final metal, will come to you. And you will be ruled by them. ... "Worship," Miles said, his voice failing, his mouth soaked with blood. "Worship Trell and wait..." Anyway, just wanted to put this out there because it seems like a significant number of similarities. 41 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KandraAllomancer Posted November 10, 2020 Report Share Posted November 10, 2020 Wow, that's a great catch! I need to re-read that part of BoM 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsdaughter613 Posted November 10, 2020 Report Share Posted November 10, 2020 The metal plate, which we never hear of again, inscribed with a strange language. If anything is connected, it’s probably that. The fact that Wax never seems to see that plate is very telling. That would be just like Brandon; mention something important in passing, so we can go back later and cry in awe at his foreshadowing. I mean, “They say I will hold the future of the entire world on my arms.” 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Realmatic Shadow Posted November 10, 2020 Report Share Posted November 10, 2020 12 hours ago, mdross81 said: Quote "You are fools!" Miles yelled at he firing squad. "One day, the men of gold and red, bearers of the final metal, will come to you. And you will be ruled by them. ... "Worship," Miles said, his voice failing, his mouth soaked with blood. "Worship Trell and wait..." Anyway, just wanted to put this out there because it seems like a significant number of similarities. Bearers of the final metal. Bearer of the First Gem. See something there? The latter is a title attributed to Hoid, who has been confirmed to have held a Dawnshard at some point, so what would be the obvious line to draw with 'Bearers of the final metal'? Storms, it seems the line from Kelsier "There's always another secret" just keeps being proven... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight of Iron Posted November 10, 2020 Report Share Posted November 10, 2020 If Dawnshards are similar to Shards and can have an opposite, then the opposite of Rysn's Dawnshard of Change would be, as discussed in other threads, Dawnshard of Not Change, Staying the Same, Remain, or, my favorite, Survive. While I'm not sure there's much evidence for it as of yet, Scadrial does seem to be a likely location for another Dawnshard, as it's a major player in the cosmere, and what other Dawnshard then a Survival one? So... did Kelsier get his hands on a the Dawnshard of Survival? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormingTexan Posted November 10, 2020 Report Share Posted November 10, 2020 Hmm this seems like a pretty solid connection and fascinating if it is true how far back the seed of this have been planted. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verily Posted November 12, 2020 Report Share Posted November 12, 2020 Why would Kelsier put the bands in a temple that already existed? They weren't just there to be hidden, but to be found. The writing is on the mural is definitely interesting, but why would he give up the Dawnshard of he found it? I'm also curious when it was confirmed that Hoid held a Dawnshard. My guess is that he has the one of Fortune, so would that make the opposite one chance? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Use the Falchion Posted November 12, 2020 Report Share Posted November 12, 2020 34 minutes ago, Verily said: I'm also curious when it was confirmed that Hoid held a Dawnshard. Sanderson's annotations on Reddit. The Coppermind has the three annotations. Be careful about the Q&A section if you're not reading the preview chapters. I was spoiled on something there... https://wob.coppermind.net/events/443-dawnshard-annotations/ 44 minutes ago, Verily said: My guess is that he has the one of Fortune, so would that make the opposite one chance? I'm not sure I agree with this, but you make a very interesting point/theory. Also, welcome to the Shard! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halyo_Alex Posted November 12, 2020 Report Share Posted November 12, 2020 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said: I'm not sure I agree with this, but you make a very interesting point/theory. I think he held the Dawnshard of Creation (Create instead of Change) and that's why he literally can't hurt living things, it goes against the Command of the Dawnshard. (Edit: Oh hey my 1,000th 17th shard post, neat) Edited November 12, 2020 by Halyo_Alex neat 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verily Posted November 12, 2020 Report Share Posted November 12, 2020 31 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said: Sanderson's annotations on Reddit. The Coppermind has the three annotations. Be careful about the Q&A section if you're not reading the preview chapters. I was spoiled on something there... https://wob.coppermind.net/events/443-dawnshard-annotations/ I'm not sure I agree with this, but you make a very interesting point/theory. Also, welcome to the Shard! Thanks for the welcome! I've been a lurker for far too long. Lol This link is great. I'd never read these WoB before. The fact that he's no longer a Dawnshard makes more sense, because I was confused about how he could interact with Preservation's bead and Elhokar's spren if Dawnshards can't/shouldn't be interacting with the investiture of different shards. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Use the Falchion Posted November 12, 2020 Report Share Posted November 12, 2020 12 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said: I think he held the Dawnshard of Creation (Create instead of Change) and that's why he literally can't hurt living things, it goes against the Command of the Dawnshard. (Edit: Oh hey my 1,000th 17th shard post, neat) Happy 1,000th post! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver-the-ridgerunner Posted November 13, 2020 Report Share Posted November 13, 2020 On 11/11/2020 at 8:17 PM, Verily said: why would he give up the Dawnshard of he found it? Perhaps it's for the same reason that Rysn was told never to bond a Spren. Perhaps the Bands were a source (even as a repository) of Investiture, which would have given a Dawnshard-bearer too much power. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheat Commando Posted November 14, 2020 Report Share Posted November 14, 2020 Through my own reading and thinking, I think one of the other Dawnshards is "Survive" and now after reading the OP, I think Kelsier IS the "Survive" Dawnshard. That final scene in Bands of Mourning.... Survive! I was getting goosebumps as @mdross81 was listing the similarities. Great catch! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honorless Posted November 14, 2020 Report Share Posted November 14, 2020 (edited) I'm wondering about the painting magic thing in the Cosmere. The painting of the Battle of Twilight Falls that Lightsong sees and the painting that Kaladin sees from the Court of Gods in Shadesmar (assuming both are not the same painting, they still have the same painter according to Brandon) Quote R'Shara The two paintings--The Battle of Twilight Falls, and the one that Kaladin sees in Shadesmar. Are they the same? Brandon Sanderson I believe that they are, but I could have...When I wrote the original scene, I intended them to be, but I might have changed something later on. They would be by the same artist. You can say yes, unless I changed something. There was something I was thinking of changing. I'd have to go back and look at them side by side. R'Shara But they sounded different. One has black in it, that the other one doesn't. Brandon Sanderson The thing is, that artist, and people seeing it, I intend them to each see something different in the paintings they see. But I don't know that I actually decided to make that the same painting. But the same artist. Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019) Quote BlackYeti (paraphrased) In Oathbringer, Kaladin sees a painting from the Court of Gods which, it is claimed, shows something different to every person who sees it. However, as I understand it, the Returned only see things in the paintings because of their Divine Breath, there isn't anything intrinsically magical about the paintings themselves; what then is going on with this painting? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) He was very evasive here, ultimately he only said that not everything that you see is in the painting. Oathbringer Newcastle signing (Dec. 1, 2017) Quote Gordon The paintings (I think there were at least two, right?) that remind Lightsong of his dreams and the Manywar etc. Is the Artist someone we know? If not, will we eventually meet him/her in a later book? Does the artist hope to affect Lightsong this way, or is it just some guy giving abstract art to his God? Jared Is the artist that painted those paintings Hoid? Brandon Sanderson Hoid did not make the paintings. The goal of those paintings—and this is spoilery, by the way—the paintings are actually what the text implies that they are. They are abstract paintings which Lightsong, having a touch of the divine, is able to see and read into things that aren't necessarily there. Beyond that, art is a magical thing in the world of WARBREAKER. When an artist creates a work of art, part of the artist's soul ends up in the artwork. Someone who has many breaths and who's Returned like Lightsong has the inherent ability to see into the art and perceive that. So Lightsong can interpret correctly an abstract piece, based on what the artist is trying to convey, in a way that a normal person couldn't. I was not trying to make the artists anyone specifically important. In the case of those paintings, they are wonderful artists—I think they are two separate artists, if I'm thinking of the two paintings that you're indicating. As Lightsong has a splinter of divine nature inside him, he is able to interpret the paintings—to foresee, using them, and to see into the soul of the person who made them. Goodreads Fantasy Book Discussion Warbreaker Q&A (Jan. 18, 2010) And on Reddit, Brandon said this about the mural Quote asmodeus_9 Can you tell us a little bit more about what these things are? The book itself gives us a lot in very little, so it'd be nice to get some perspective on how you think about these. Not necessarily fishing for more information, just... clarity on what we just learned. Brandon Sanderson By "these things" do you mean the Dawnshards? In this case, I can't say more, I'm afraid. They're plot points in future books, and I maybe already explained more than I should have. asmodeus_9 I was mostly wondering what happened in the cave. It's... it feels like the Command to change, to remake, was somehow imprinted or passed onto a mural, and then when Rysn looked at it, it passed back onto, and perhaps into her. Where I'm a little confused is... is the Command, the Dawnshard, "binding" to her as this thing outside of her, or is it becoming a part of her? Or are these two cases, depending on how you look at this, the same thing? Also, curious based on how the mural was described in terms of four fours, but is the number of Shards being 16 a function of how the four Dawnshards were used to Shatter? Brandon Sanderson Mostly RAFOs, here, I'm afraid. To those in-world, she now IS the Dawnshard. Whether that's what the community thinks is another story. Phantine Would that make Hoid a "Dawnsliver", or is there some other fancypants terms for it? Brandon Sanderson Depends on a variety of things, Phantine. But I'd be okay with that terminology. It's basically accurate. Gale_Emchild Does that mean that before she became the Dawnshard that the wall was? Brandon Sanderson More the mural. But yes, that would be the implication. Note that it was not an ordinary mural. Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020) Representing something in a painting Connects it to you, it seems. Pattern said something similar to Shallan regarding her drawings of people, in Oathbringer. They might all be working on the same principles. Edited December 3, 2020 by Honorless 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krafl Posted November 14, 2020 Report Share Posted November 14, 2020 (edited) I don't know about Kelsier having a Dawnshard, but for sure alongside with Roshar, Scandrial could be a major candidate for having one: it could had been used to create the planet itself, and the multiple istances of "hearing" the 'SURVIVE' command could be considered clues. A point that coul be against the presence of a Dawnshard on Scandrial, though, is that neither Preservation nor Ruin seem ever to acknowledge or hint at it, and i would find very strange one of them could use one without the other noticing. Also, if we consider, as many of us are doing on the forum, that groups of shards are attuned each to a single Dawnshard, Ruin most likely would be tied to the one Rysn found, the 'CHANGE' one, and so if indeed the 'SURVIVE' one was on Scandrial, why then Preservation didn't use it against Ruin? Did he really just kept it hidden? Or maybe, using it would have hindered his Grand Plan of having Preservation and Ruin merged into Harmony? Edited November 14, 2020 by Krafl I'm bad at English :( 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honorless Posted November 14, 2020 Report Share Posted November 14, 2020 1 minute ago, Krafl said: I don't know about Kelsier having a Dawnshard, but for sure alongside with Roshar, Scandrial could be a major candidate for having one: it could had been used to create the planet itself, and the multiple istances of "hearing" the 'SURVIVE' command are likely clues. A point that coul be against the presence of a Dawnshard on Scandrial, though, is that neither Preservation nor Ruin seem ever to acknowledge or hint at it, and i would find very strange one of them could use one without the other noticing. Also, if we consider, as many of us are doing on the forum, that groups of shards are attuned to a Dawnshard, Ruin most likely would be tied to the one Rysn found, the 'CHANGE' one, and so if indeed the 'SURVIVE' one was on Scandrial, why then Preservation didn't use it against Ruin? Did he really just kept it hidden? Or maybe, using it would have hindered his Grand Plan of having Preservation and Ruin merged into Harmony? Hmm... maybe? Preservation did say something weird about a weapon he buried in Secret History. Lots of people thought he was just talking about the clues he'd buried but many people (including me) were/are suspicious of that line. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krafl Posted November 14, 2020 Report Share Posted November 14, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Honorless said: Hmm... maybe? Preservation did say something weird about a weapon he buried in Secret History. Lots of people thought he was just talking about the clues he'd buried but many people (including me) were/are suspicious of that line. Oh, i had completely forgotten that detail... Then it would completely made sense of that "weapon" being the 'SURVIVE' Dawnshard. Also, i think that my point of a Shard being not aware of a Dawnshard, does not stand up since Odium did not know of the one in Aimia. Also: not very bright of Leras mentioning hidden weapons in front of Kelsier... Edited November 14, 2020 by Krafl 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine Posted November 16, 2020 Report Share Posted November 16, 2020 @mdross81, great theory overall, but the one problem I see with it is that Kelsier seemed to be influenced/guided by the command SURVIVE before even he was killed by the Lord Ruler. I don't have the ebooks for the mistborn books, so I'll leave the analysis to the rest of you crazily talented vetters of theories, but I just want to throw this out there. Leras might have hidden the Dawnshard in something that symbolized what he wanted to survive, something beautiful and worth preserving. He might have hidden the Dawnshard in the drawing of a flower that was one of the only artifacts that survived from the ancient Larastian religion (kind of sounds like Leras, right), that was special to Mare and gave her hope, and that Kelsier always kept close to himself. Kelsier, the Survivor who reforged himself as the fullborn demigod The Sovereign, might have divested himself of the Dawnshard and put it into that metal disk with the strange writing around it in the Sovereign's temple. They might have missed the true treasure in that temple when they just took the Bands of Mourning. Ironic right? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mdross81 Posted November 16, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 16, 2020 Thanks @hoiditthroughthegrapevine. I went back to Secret History and it certainly does suggest that Kelsier first heard the Survive Command long before he would have come into contact with a Dawnshard: Quote Do better, Kelsier, Preservation commanded, his voice fading. If the end comes, get them below ground. It might help. And remember ... remember what I told you, so long ago....Do what I cannot, Kelsier.... SURVIVE. The word vibrated through him, and Kelsier gasped. He knew that feeling, remembered the exact command. He'd heard that voice in the Pits. Waking him, driving him forward. So that definitely throws a wrinkle in any theory about Kelsier being connected to a potential Survive Dawnshard. I'm not so wedded to the theory (and am too distracted by anticipation for ROW) to mount a vigorous defense of the theory. But I suppose I'd throw out the possibility that, just as it seems Chiri Chiri and the mandras may have led Rysn to the mural, something could have, even back in the Pits, been trying to point Kelsier in the right direction. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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