A place to put my random Dawnshard thoughts and questions

[Mulk]

I can't really take the time to read through everything, unfortunately, with my job being what it is right now, and I need a spot to be a sort of coppermind for myself, or else I'm going to forget I thought these things.  So questions, thoughts, reactions as they occur to me, probably to be amended later if I can find the time after a second read through.

1) Given what Cord said about stories of the Dawnshard having come through the peaks in the past, I'm wondering how we need to reinterpret some of Rock's stories about the Peaks and the Horneater people.

2) Bow of Hours?  The Rock novella really can't get here soon enough.

3) Rysn really does rock.  And she should meet Rock.

4) I assume this Dawnshard was used in the destruction of Ashyn.  I wonder if it was used in the attempt to bind Odium in place, or if Honor was able to use other means, like say making the contest one that forced Odium to Invest too much to be able to leave.

5) What are the others and where are they?

6) I wonder if all four were used in Ashyn or not, and if it wasn't all of them, which ones were they.

7) I'm glad Yalb survived. I really liked him. Hope he pops up again sometime.  I think knowing he lived would be a good thing for Shallan.

8) What in the Cosmere happened on Ashyn that Dawnshards were brought to bear?  I feel like we're going to have to wait for the back five for this, but my curiosity on that is growing.

9) How often does Chiri Chiri need to return and how many times, and just how big does a larkin get before it is fully grown?

10) Maybe the Sleepless have been going about this all wrong, and they should have been breeding hordelings to be more humanoid instead of trying to stitch themselves together out of one?  Or is that not possible?

11) Cord is misnamed, but to be honest, they don't really have the right flora on Roshar to have gotten it right.  She's really a young sequoia.

12) Giving Lopen more depth is great.  Having him understand what his attitude sometimes does to people around him is better.  His interactions with Rysn are really interesting.

13) The more I read about Rushu, the more I like her as well.

14) Sleepless in the court of Urithiru will be really interesting to watch, assuming we get to see them.

15) Vstim backstory, please

16) Rysn's jokes made me weep a little and laugh a lot.

There's more.  But mostly, I enjoyed the heck out of this and wonder how in the world Brandon can just toss off a 55k novel/novella in the time he did. And then I remember he's Brandon.

[Ashbringer]

On 4): I feel like it would be very unlikely for all 4 Dawnshards to make their way to the Rosharian system. I think there might one more on Roshar - a “Unite” command - but the others are probably scattered in other locations. Scadrial probably has one, maybe Nathalis as well.

My guess is it was only one Dawnshard that devastated Ashyn. “Change” certainly seems capable of such things.

And on 5): wouldn’t we like to know... there’s a few threads brainstorming it right now.

[Rushu42]

3 hours ago, Mulk said:

2) Bow of Hours?  The Rock novella really can't get here soon enough.

I think that this was just a dramatic description of Rock killing Amaram with the Shardbow, but I agree completely! 

3 hours ago, Mulk said:

4) I assume this Dawnshard was used in the destruction of Ashyn.  I wonder if it was used in the attempt to bind Odium in place, or if Honor was able to use other means, like say making the contest one that forced Odium to Invest too much to be able to leave.

I'm still unclear on how exactly the Dawnshards work, but I don't see how "Change" would bind someone. Is it possible just because of the amount of Investiture, or was there a different Dawnshard at play?

3 hours ago, Mulk said:

9) How often does Chiri Chiri need to return and how many times, and just how big does a larkin get before it is fully grown?

I'm very excited to see Rysn riding a dragon-sized larkin as a Dawnshard in the final battle. I mean, can you get more epic?

3 hours ago, Mulk said:

13) The more I read about Rushu, the more I like her as well.

Seconded (as you can probably tell). I was a little worried that I'd end up regretting the choice of this username, as I made it when she was still a very background character, but I just ended up loving her even more.

[Knight of Iron]

3 hours ago, Rushu42 said:

I'm still unclear on how exactly the Dawnshards work, but I don't see how "Change" would bind someone. Is it possible just because of the amount of Investiture, or was there a different Dawnshard at play?

My guess is it’s the Dawnshard that was on Roshar (or at least mentioned in Rosharan history) that is known to bind creatures both voidish and mortal, the Dawnshard I like to call Unity.

[Aon Tia]

9 hours ago, Rushu42 said:

I'm still unclear on how exactly the Dawnshards work, but I don't see how "Change" would bind someone. Is it possible just because of the amount of Investiture, or was there a different Dawnshard at play?

Hmm the only thing we know is that dawnshards can bind both voidish and humans. So we don’t really know what that means. But it may be that change is like its intent, it may only signify the way it is to be commanded but the effect of it’s investiture may be totally unrelated. Change however should have endowment and cultivation and may be that’s why the effects that Rysn is feeling are very similar to awakening. 

 

9 hours ago, Rushu42 said:

I'm very excited to see Rysn riding a dragon-sized larkin as a Dawnshard in the final battle. I mean, can you get more epic?

This would be awesome. Also it seems that Rysn will have a major role to play in this series although she may remain an interlude character only. 

[ftl]

2 hours ago, The Traveller said:

Hmm the only thing we know is that dawnshards can bind both voidish and humans.

We don't even know that much. We know that the one Dawnshard referenced by the Poem of Ista was known to bind any mortal, both voidish and human.

We don't know whether that Dawnshard is this Dawnshard, or whether that generalizes to all dawnsards!

 

[Aon Tia]

44 minutes ago, ftl said:

We don't even know that much. We know that the one Dawnshard referenced by the Poem of Ista was known to bind any mortal, both voidish and human.

We don't know whether that Dawnshard is this Dawnshard, or whether that generalizes to all dawnsards!

 

Yea that is correct! We can not be certain! 
Although won’t it be strange that we find mention of one on Roshar that can bind both void and humans and we actually have a dawnshard on Roshar and that one does not bind!? 
It should be the same one logically but I also can not see how one that commands change can cause binding!

[Knight of Iron]

4 hours ago, The Traveller said:

Yea that is correct! We can not be certain! 
Although won’t it be strange that we find mention of one on Roshar that can bind both void and humans and we actually have a dawnshard on Roshar and that one does not bind!? 
It should be the same one logically but I also can not see how one that commands change can cause binding!

Although... Honor did say humanity has lost the Dawnshards (plural) and not the Dawnshard (singular). And I don’t think the Dawnshard Rysn has is the one that binds, because the reference seems to distinguish the two. “Taking the Dawnshard know to bind...” sounds like it’s different than a Dawnshard known to change. 

[+robardin]

On 11/8/2020 at 3:35 PM, Rushu42 said:

I think that [Drawing the Bow of Hours] was just a dramatic description of Rock killing Amaram with the Shardbow, but I agree completely! 

That's what it would seem like, except it would seem there is a long-standing ancient prophecy and attendant agreement that the right "gods" are bound to respect, except that she wasn't sure if the Ones Who Do Not Sleep counted in that group (apparently not).

Oh, and earlier, when Cord was surprised that the luckspren (Apaliki'tokoa'a) showed themselves to Rysn as they guided them under the water to the air pocket chamber/cave, "My father has always had the blessings of spren. They used to strengthen his arm, when he drew the Bow of Hours in the peaks..." So this Bow of Hours may or may not be a Shardbow, but he the might task of drawing it before he left the Peaks.

Edited November 9, 2020 by robardin

[Kingsdaughter613]

22 hours ago, Mulk said:

I can't really take the time to read through everything, unfortunately, with my job being what it is right now, and I need a spot to be a sort of coppermind for myself, or else I'm going to forget I thought these things.  So questions, thoughts, reactions as they occur to me, probably to be amended later if I can find the time after a second read through.

1) Given what Cord said about stories of the Dawnshard having come through the peaks in the past, I'm wondering how we need to reinterpret some of Rock's stories about the Peaks and the Horneater people.

2) Bow of Hours?  The Rock novella really can't get here soon enough.

3) Rysn really does rock.  And she should meet Rock.

4) I assume this Dawnshard was used in the destruction of Ashyn.  I wonder if it was used in the attempt to bind Odium in place, or if Honor was able to use other means, like say making the contest one that forced Odium to Invest too much to be able to leave.

5) What are the others and where are they?

6) I wonder if all four were used in Ashyn or not, and if it wasn't all of them, which ones were they.

7) I'm glad Yalb survived. I really liked him. Hope he pops up again sometime.  I think knowing he lived would be a good thing for Shallan.

8) What in the Cosmere happened on Ashyn that Dawnshards were brought to bear?  I feel like we're going to have to wait for the back five for this, but my curiosity on that is growing.

9) How often does Chiri Chiri need to return and how many times, and just how big does a larkin get before it is fully grown?

10) Maybe the Sleepless have been going about this all wrong, and they should have been breeding hordelings to be more humanoid instead of trying to stitch themselves together out of one?  Or is that not possible?

11) Cord is misnamed, but to be honest, they don't really have the right flora on Roshar to have gotten it right.  She's really a young sequoia.

12) Giving Lopen more depth is great.  Having him understand what his attitude sometimes does to people around him is better.  His interactions with Rysn are really interesting.

13) The more I read about Rushu, the more I like her as well.

14) Sleepless in the court of Urithiru will be really interesting to watch, assuming we get to see them.

15) Vstim backstory, please

16) Rysn's jokes made me weep a little and laugh a lot.

There's more.  But mostly, I enjoyed the heck out of this and wonder how in the world Brandon can just toss off a 55k novel/novella in the time he did. And then I remember he's Brandon.

Not only don’t they have the right flora, they don’t have the right person. The Sequoia trees are named for Sequoya, the man who created the Cherokee syllabary. (Fascinating man, and I recommend looking him up.) I agree that it’s a great name for Cord though.

 

I wrote a 100k book in two months. When you’re pulling fire from the heavens, it can happen. And then there are times when the words won’t come no matter how hard you try. And the stories that come piecemeal. And so on. But when you get fire... then it’s like the words are already there, and you’re just a conduit to put them on the page.

[Mulk]

I guess the more remarkable thing about this is that Brandon never seems to stop producing at this level.  I honestly wonder what pulling fire from heaven would be like for him...

I think I knew that about the origin of the sequoia name, but had forgotten it over the years - it seems familiar but there's no data there, as it were.  I'll look him up.

[Kingsdaughter613]

4 minutes ago, Mulk said:

I guess the more remarkable thing about this is that Brandon never seems to stop producing at this level.  I honestly wonder what pulling fire from heaven would be like for him...

I think I knew that about the origin of the sequoia name, but had forgotten it over the years - it seems familiar but there's no data there, as it were.  I'll look him up.

What he does is he switches projects. That usually can work.
 

He also forces himself to write. When I wrote my book, I made myself write one chapter every night. I don’t have time now because of college, unfortunately. When I have time again I’ll try to finish the book I started just before college got crazy. Right now, the only things I’m writing are papers. The last of which was fifty pages long before double-spacing, and written over the course of a week.

 

Writing a lot is easy. Writing something good and original is hard. The wonder isn’t how fast Brandon writes; it’s how good and original his work is.

Edited November 9, 2020 by Kingsdaughter613

[Mulk]

Well, I am aware of that.   I've been hanging out off and on here for a few years, but I spend way more time in discord and even there my time is sporadic - being married with three kids and with a job that is really busy right now, my time is just too limited to interact like I want.

I think, though, you sell short just how difficult for most of the populace writing that much that quickly is.  I don't think even most professional writers can turn out what he does as often as he does, and you're right in saying that the real wonder is how good and original his work is - and that he turns out that much that quick and it's ready to publish.  I'm just kinda flabbergasted at times.  Yeah, Brandon changes topics to keep fresh, but he rarely isn't writing something.  Like, he has to be writing to be happy, almost.  Bless Emily and their kids for putting up with it.  Brandon "I wrote this thing and I liked it so much it'll be four books before I'm done" Sanderson

I came to this out of Wheel of Time.  Basically, when it was announced Brandon would finish that, a buddy gave me Elantris to read to give me a feel for him and I liked it, then I absolutely loved his three WoT books, so I grabbed a trade paperback of WoK in Half Price almost as soon as I finished AMoL.  Suffice it to say I'm hooked, lol. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

13 minutes ago, Mulk said:

Well, I am aware of that.   I've been hanging out off and on here for a few years, but I spend way more time in discord and even there my time is sporadic - being married with three kids and with a job that is really busy right now, my time is just too limited to interact like I want.

I think, though, you sell short just how difficult for most of the populace writing that much that quickly is.  I don't think even most professional writers can turn out what he does as often as he does, and you're right in saying that the real wonder is how good and original his work is - and that he turns out that much that quick and it's ready to publish.  I'm just kinda flabbergasted at times.  Yeah, Brandon changes topics to keep fresh, but he rarely isn't writing something.  Like, he has to be writing to be happy, almost.  Bless Emily and their kids for putting up with it.  Brandon "I wrote this thing and I liked it so much it'll be four books before I'm done" Sanderson

I came to this out of Wheel of Time.  Basically, when it was announced Brandon would finish that, a buddy gave me Elantris to read to give me a feel for him and I liked it, then I absolutely loved his three WoT books, so I grabbed a trade paperback of WoK in Half Price almost as soon as I finished AMoL.  Suffice it to say I'm hooked, lol. 

I came from WoT too!

 

I think David Eddings put it best really. “Notice that I didn’t say ‘wanted to be a writer’. ‘Want’ has almost nothing to do with it. It’s either there or it isn’t. If you happen to be one, you’re stuck with it. You’ll write whether you get paid for it or not. You won’t be able to help yourself. When it’s going well, it’s like reaching up into heaven and pulling down fire. It’s better than any dope you can buy. When it’s not going well, it’s much like giving birth to a baby elephant.” (Excerpt from Eddings, D. & Eddings, L. (n.d.). The Rivan codex. Random House Publishing Group)

I’m a writer. If I don’t write, I’m not happy. Brandon is a writer. He HAS to write. Writing isn’t a choice; it’s a necessity. The words want to be written.

Writing WELL is another thing entirely.

Edited November 9, 2020 by Kingsdaughter613

[Mulk]

On reread, Cord says her father drew the Bow of Hours in the Peaks, so it happened before Stormlight.  So yes, Bow of Hours, I am not having the knowing of this thing!  AND I NEED IT!

17) I was struck by just how good a listener Rysn is, and how good a judge of people and of circumstance she has become. How, for all of her struggles with self-doubt and worth, for all her frustration over her situation, how indefatigably optimistic she is in her actions if not in her internal monologue.  She is intelligent, but it is colored with experience and consideration.  She trusts, but with wisdom.  She sees the problems and works to overcome them. She is able to see behind the surface to the things that are - the motivations and needs behind that things that are happening - and make connections between the need driving the action and knowledge and experience she has access to in order to change outcomes.

She has, in effect, soulcast her crew from what it was to what it is now and won from them by merit the respect and honor due her for the position she already had.  I really hope more is intended for her in the back five.

Also, because I feel the need to repeat this: Vstim backstory, please?

18) What is this agreement Cord references in her challenge?  I assume it refers to the story Rock told of how the Horneaters came to live where they do, but I really want specifics.

19) I really do feel for Nikli.  At core, the problems the Sleepless have all revolve around one key thing - they do not, on any level, really understand humans. Not only how to act like them, but how they think, what is likely to pique their interest.  He tries so hard, and is better at it than any of his kind apparently, and is torn by the respect he has for Rysn which grows through the book and the need to keep the Dawnshard hidden.  It's one more example of fear (and let me say, this is a very REAL fear) impeding communication, and one more illustration in the difficulty in learning to trust when you have been hurt.  Which makes the discussion of such early on in Dawnshard all the more poignant.

20) At some point we need to discover what exactly the Scouring was and how it rendered the Sleepless so...averse to trusting anyone.  Arclo clearly had no fear whatsoever of Nale or his Skybreakers.  So how in the world did Akinah and Aimia get...whatever it was that happened?

21) Who are the other three Sleepless? Have we seen them? What are they doing?

22) How do swarms get separated?

23) I missed this on the initial read through, but apparently the giant hordeling Huio and Lopen fight is one of NIkli's?  Also holy crap, giant hordeling

24) My second pass at the ending makes me think that maybe the Sleepless have seen the use of the Dawnshards ending in destruction and terror on more than one occasion...perhaps their memory goes back to the Shattering?

[Eternal Khol]

 

35 minutes ago, Mulk said:

21) Who are the other three Sleepless? Have we seen them? What are they doing?

Arclo. The one Lift meets in Edgedancer is one of them. I believe we haven’t seen/heads of the other two.

 

35 minutes ago, Mulk said:

22) How do swarms get separated?

Brandon said that if a swarm tries to create two separate bodies in different places, and made them think, it might be enough to split off and become it own personality, permanently.

i bet they do it intentionally sometimes though.

WoB

Spoiler

ArgentSun

Can a single Sleepless swarm (say, Nikli, or Arclo) form 2+ humanoid bodies and essentially pretend to be two people at the same time?

Brandon Sanderson

Possible, but difficult. Splitting their consciousness risks accidentally birthing another Sleepless, and splitting them into two people permanently. It's much easier if one of the bodies doesn't have to interact in an intelligent way.

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020)

35 minutes ago, Mulk said:

23) I missed this on the initial read through, but apparently the giant hordeling Huio and Lopen fight is one of NIkli's?  Also holy crap, giant hordeling.

I don’t believe they are hordelings. 
in a WoB a few years ago, Brandon said their max size is about “fist sized”

also the giant beast had luckspren around them like we seem with other greatshells and such that have bonded them, and i don’t believe the Sleepless bond Luckspren.

during that fight, there were mentions of little stormlight sucking cremlings which were obviously the Hordelings that Nikli says were bred for such purpose

Edited November 11, 2020 by Eternal Khol

[Mulk]

I know Arclo's one.  From how I read it, I interpreted that the twenty still with the first Sleepless included Nikli, that Arclo was one of the four who isn't, and that leaves three.  Arclo's not harmless, but he's also not evil and he's genuinely curious, which is interesting to me.

Whatever the giant things are, they respond to Sleepless control, which is why I thought hordeling.  Maybe they're not.  Maybe Brandon changed his mind. Or maybe these are in fact bred by Sleepless but aren't truly hordelings?  I dunno.

What you said about the scouring is all stuff I agree with, I just want to know what exactly the scouring was.  I don't think it was merely the killing off of the lanceryn (though that's a pretty big deal in and of itself) because of just...the impression I got from reading the way the Sleepless who are old enough to remember it talk about it vaguely to Nikli, who is not.

[Eternal Khol]

7 minutes ago, Mulk said:

Whatever the giant things are, they respond to Sleepless control, which is why I thought hordeling.  Maybe they're not.  Maybe Brandon changed his mind. Or maybe these are in fact bred by Sleepless but aren't truly hordelings?  I dunno.

 

I wonder if they could be Lanceryn?

greatshells that lived on Aimia and were said to have gone extinct. but we have counts of extinct Aimian natives still living(chiri chiri) So i wonder if they could still be alive and be bred or trained/controlled by the sleepless for the use of protecting the island from anyone who makes it past their other defenses.

seems like something theyd do.

or are Lanceryn, larkin?(im not very clear on the terminology)

Edited November 11, 2020 by Eternal Khol

[Mulk]

Lanceryn are larkin, as I see it.  Change in terminology meaning the same thing is how I took it.

They're not lanceryn/larkin though.  The conversation with Nikli at the end makes it clear there's only three they are aware of, and Chiri Chiri is the only one who has grown mature enough to return to bond a spren.

[Eternal Khol]

I guess they are some sort of cross breed hordelings, i just thought they couldn’t get that big.

i wonder if they are bred with some sort of Roshar sea creatures?

Lopen thinks in one of his PoV’s that they would move better in water