Let's make groups of 4

[Kinolee]

The idea that the 16 Shards can be categorized in groups of 4 (a la Mistborn metals) is not a new one, and I think Dawnshard is going to further support that theory.  The mural that seems to depict The Shattering of Adonalsium and imbues Rysn with her Command is described as having 16 "mostly symmetrical pieces" grouped into fours.

Quote

The peculiar letters were art themselves, curling around the outside of the exploding sun—which was divided into mostly symmetrical pieces. Four of them, each in turn broken into four smaller sections.

So let's make groups of 4!  I'm sure there's going to be tons of different theories on how the Shards are organized.  Even when trying to find commonalities between all the Shards, there's bound to be people who see different patterns than others.  Let's start with what we know, or at least what we think we know...

About the Dawnshards in general:

• The Dawnshards are "the four primal Commands that created all things"
• The Dawnshards were used to undo Adonalsium itself
• Both a Command and Intent are required to use "the most powerful forms of Surgebinding [Magic]" that ordinarily "transcends traditional mortal understanding."
• These are demands "on a level no person could ever manage alone" -- a single person would not be able to handle wielding this combined power.

So the Dawnshards predate the Shattering of Adonalsium and thus cannot have been created by the Shattering.  They were used to create all things -- the power of creation, potentially wielded by Adoalsium, who is a deity.  The people (Dragon, Human, mortal or immortal, but otherwise just people, not deities) who Shattered Adonalsium would have been incapable of using a Command on their own, even with the proper Intent.  --  Could they have been required to work in groups of four?  I think perhaps four people with similar Intents likely were needed to use each Command, and then the four Commands must have been used together to kill God.  Four groups of four, with each person having a specific Intent that somewhat related to the Command they were helping to wield.

And what do we know about the Commands specifically:

• Rysn's Command seems to have a theme, which is Change.
  • "Accept it. Know it. CHANGE."
  • "It was then that she grasped, in the smallest way, the nature of the Command inside her. The will of a god to remake things, to demand they be better. The power to change."
• Rysn seems to be able to appreciate colors and tastes much more clearly after being imbued with the Command, which is similar to the effects of investiture created by Endowment (Breaths, Nalthis)
  • "Storms. Was it her, or did this tea taste extra good? She inspected it, then glanced at the sunlight pouring through the porthole. Was it . . . brighter than usual? Why did the colors in her room look so exceptionally vivid all of a sudden?"
• Rysn also appreciates the musicality in Drlwan's voice -- is this another effect similar to that of a Heightening?  Or is Rysn potentially hearing the Rhythms of Roshar?
  • "Strange, how she saw the contrast of shadows much more starkly now. And . . . why did Drlwan’s voice sound more musical?"
• The Command agrees(?) with Rysn's decision to let Cord keep her Shardplate out of tradition.  Because it's the honorable thing to do?  Because it's a gift that Rysn has endowed to Cord?  Tradition, doing something because it has been done before, actually seems to be somewhat in opposition to the theme of "Change," so I feel this is important to explore.
  • "'Cord discovered it,' Rysn said. 'It’s traditional to let the one who first claims a Shard keep it.' The Command pulsed with warmth as she said that."

So based on this information, I feel pretty sure that we can at least begin to categorize the Shards.  Everything that follows here is just my best guess at a grouping.

• CHANGE -- "The will of a god to remake things, to demand they be better. The power to change."
  • Endowment -- Must be, based on the changes Rysn is experiencing.  Even though I personally feel like it's a stretch to put this here.  Advancement? The addition of things, or gaining of new things, to improve or grow?
  • Cultivation -- Growth, personal improvement, etc.  Could be the source of Rysn beginning to hear the Rhythms.  Definitely belongs in this category.
  • Ruin -- Entropy, decay, mortality.  Definitely belongs in this category.
  • ?
• SURVIVE -- The will of a god to create enduring life, that extends itself into infinity even beyond it's own death. The power to survive.
  • Preservation -- Stability, safety, unchanging.  Definitely belongs in this category, and really the basis for why I think "SURVIVE" or "LIVE" must be a command -- because Kelsier certainly hears the Command to SURVIVE in Mistborn, and it is not coming from Leras.
  • Autonomy -- Self-reliance, individualism, independence.  The ability to survive while depending on only yourself.  Definitely belongs in this category.
  • The unknown shard "who just wants to hide and survive." -- Obviously belongs in this category even though we don't know what the true intent is.
  • ?
• UNITE -- The will of a god to bind things, to conncet people with eachother and with the land and life around them. The power to unite.
  • Honor -- Oaths, connecting people to eachother, binding them to their words and traditions.  Obviously belongs in this category, and the basis for why I think "UNITE" or "CONNECT" must be a command -- because Dalinar certainly hears the Command to UNITE all throughout SA, and it is not the Stormfather, nor is it Tanavast.
  • Dominion -- Connecting people to the land, and to eachother with political power and territory.  This one may be a stretch, but it's my best guess. I think it probably belongs in this category.
  • ?
  • ?
• CARE -- The will of a god to create meaning and purpose, to demand that life exists for a reason. The power to care.
  • Odium -- Pasion, love, hatred, emotion, motivation (though "Motivation" would be a great Shard name on its own).  Definitely belongs in this category.
  • Devotion -- Purpose, worship, crusades/quests.  This one is also a stretch; honestly I have the hardest time with the Selish Shards because their Intents are confusing to me.  But I believe this one belongs here.  You devote yourself to a mission or a purpose in life, whatever that may be..
  • Ambition -- Personal goals, enthusiasm, striving to achieve.  If devotion belongs here then Ambition certainly does as well.
  • ?

If Wisdom is the Shard that just wants to "hide and survive" then it belongs under the SURVIVE Command.  But if Wisdom is a completely different shard, then I would want to probably put it under the CHANGE command, because knowledge changes you.  Actually... now that I think about it, I think there may be two Shards here.  "Wisdom" is a thing that you have whereas "Knowledge" is something that you gain with time and experience and experimentation.  I wouldn't be surprised to discover that "Wisdom" is the shard that wants to survive and hide, and keep its secrets, and just study the world as it is without affecting the outcome, and that there is another shard along the lines of "Knowledge" or "Discovery" that is about change through experiences.

Anyway, just had to write down my own thoughts.  I'm really interested to see how other people categorize the shards.  And I'm also interested in thoughts on my categorizations and would love for people to poke holes in it or improve it or change it around so it fits better.  What do you guys think?

Edited November 7, 2020 by Kinolee
formatting

[Raphaborn]

I don't have many ideas yet, but your last "Care" could be Preservation. Although it is really divisive with "Survive".

Edited November 7, 2020 by Raphaborn

[+Bliev]

I love the idea of a dawnshard Command being what Dalinar hears and what is associated with the golden warmth and light he feels.

I think these categories are good, but I might call “care” purpose instead?

[Kinolee]

11 minutes ago, Raphaborn said:

I don't have many ideas yet, but your last "Care" could be Preservation. Although it is really divisive with "Survive".

Maybe!  Though I do think it fits better in Survive.  "Care" (and I'm not sold that name btw, I just struggle to think of a better word), to me is the meaning of life, that life has to have a purpose.  Preservation, perseverance, for its own sake, doesn't seem to have a lot of meaning IMO.

1 minute ago, Bliev said:

I think these categories are good, but I might call “care” purpose instead?

I like it!! I definitely am not a fan of "Care," I was just having trouble thinking of a better word.  The only issue I have with "Purpose" is that it's not an imperative.  Like you can tell someone "to care" or "to unite" or "to change" etc, but you can't tell someone "to purpose," you can only tell them "to have purpose."  I still like it though.  And imperative verbs in English aren't going to all translate to other languages either, so maybe it's not really that important to sound like a command after all.  Anyway, I agree!  Thanks!

[Kinolee]

I decided I think I prefer the Command "Choose" or "Decide" rather than "Care."  It makes the Command more about requiring agency, deciding your own purpose/meaning, and free will etc.

[Ashbringer]

I think we know that Rsyn's Heightening-like abilities aren't specifically tied to Endowment. They're more of an allegory, because Rsyn's now very highly Invested, like a person holding a lot of Breaths.

"Care" is interesting... if you want to put Devotion and Odium in the same group, the command could be more encompassing of Emotion / Passion / Feeling. I like Purpose too, but I feel like the Commands are supposed to be verbs... 

 

20 minutes ago, Kinolee said:

I decided I think I prefer the Command "Choose" or "Decide" rather than "Care."  It makes the Command more about requiring agency, deciding your own purpose/meaning, and free will etc.

That would fit Autonomy quite well, probably more so than Survive.

 

Since my current grouping map uses different Commands, do you think we should try and make different maps out for different hypothetical Commands?

[Kinolee]

3 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

That would fit Autonomy quite well, probably more so than Survive.

I agree!

3 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

Since my current grouping map uses different Commands, do you think we should try and make different maps out for different hypothetical Commands?

I really like your theory about the Intents all having a subgroup as well as a main group... Brandon definitely likes his overlapping connections.  That the Shards/Intents could be sorted not only by their 4 main categories, but also by a common subcategory, sounds exactly like something Brandon would design.  It reminds me of how the metals can be split up into 4 broad categories, but also they can be split up according to internal vs. external, push vs. pull etc.  So I like your idea, I just don't think I'm sold on the idea that the subgroups are the same as the primary groups.  Like Unite -> Unite doesn't seem like it's a super useful categorization.  And also I don't know that there is a large enough difference between Change -> Unite and Unite -> Change.  To me, it would make much more sense if the subgroups were something completely different than the primary groups.

So, stealing your idea of a map/subgroups, but changing it just a little bit, and using the Commands I came up with, it looks kinda like this:

• Change - External - Positive = 
• Change - External - Negative = Ruin
• Change - Internal - Positive = Cultivation
• Change - Internal - Negative = Endowment (?)
• Unite - External - Positive = Honor
• Unite - External - Negative = Dominion
• Unite - Internal - Positive =
• Unite - Internal - Negative =
• Survive - External - Positive = Preservation
• Survive - External - Negative = The shard that just wants to hide and survive
• Survive - Internal - Positive =
• Survive - Internal - Negative =
• Choose - External - Positive = Devotion
• Choose - External - Negative = Ambition
• Choose - Internal - Positive = Autonomy
• Choose - Internal - Negative = Odium

Endowment is consistently the hardest Intent for me to place.  That one and the Selish Shards -- the Intents seem so hard to define/understand.

And also I'm not super sold on the external/internal positive/negative terminology.  Just trying to think like Brandon, and this really really just reminds me of Scadrian metal classification.  And, in a real world way, it would make sense for Brandon to have this kind of classification system on his mind when writing/designing Mistborn which was his first multi-part series in the Cosmere.

And also, just to be honest, I'm in the camp that isn't a fan of Divide/Destroy being one of the Commands.  That doesn't seem like something that would be designed with the intent of using it to create life.  Death is a part of life, but I feel like that is encompassed well enough by Change.  And I feel like there's just going to have to be two camps on this issue until we get further hints about the Dawnshards from WOB or from other texts.  Gotta say I LOVE all the dialogue about it, and that there's competing ideas!

What do you think?

 

[Nebelskind]

12 hours ago, Kinolee said:

These are demands "on a level no person could ever manage alone" -- a single person would not be able to handle wielding this combined power.

I actually interpreted this differently. I think it means that the Command and Intent are so powerful that no mortal could manage to have that strength of will/governing force when directing the power, but if a mortal becomes a Dawnshard then they *can* do those things because they’re basically co-opting the divine Command’s intensity and directing it to their own wills.

 

i do like your classifications! I think the “Care” one makes sense as a grouping; whatever it would be called, those seem to fit together well.

[Personification]

15 minutes ago, Nebelskind said:

I actually interpreted this differently. I think it means that the Command and Intent are so powerful that no mortal could manage to have that strength of will/governing force when directing the power, but if a mortal becomes a Dawnshard then they *can* do those things because they’re basically co-opting the divine Command’s intensity and directing it to their own wills.

 

i do like your classifications! I think the “Care” one makes sense as a grouping; whatever it would be called, those seem to fit together well.

But Brandon has said that Rysn is the Dawnshard, but also that she is incapable of using its power. I imagine that four of the original Shards were Dawnshards, and each had three other future Shards working together with them to harness the power. These four groups of four worked together to shatter Adonalsium. I thank that Hoid was a Dawnshard, but decided to give it up because he didn't want to be a Shard.

I would assume that if Rysn actually knew what she was doing (and possibly got some other way to manipulate investiture) she would need to work with at least three other people (who also know what they are doing) in order to actually use the Dawnshard.

[ftl]

I totally agree with the four proposed Dawnshards (Change, Unite, Survive, Care). Care might have synonyms used instead (feel?) but the idea is there, it connects to why passion comes up as a special word for Odium and Ruin.

Since 4x4=16, is there any way to think of each Shard as embodying two of of the Dawnshard Commands? In a primary/secondary way, or a physical/cognitive way, or some other way of distinguishing the effects of two Dawnshards. I'll have to think about it and see whether I can make that grid fit.

[Kingsdaughter613]

Quoted from my topic on a similar concept:

 

If Cultivation, Endowment and Ruin are three parts of the ‘Change’ group, then there’s a very good argument for it. E internal; R & C external. R pulling; E & C pushing. I think this group would probably match the physical quadrant.

The other likely possible threesome is Honor, Devotion and Dominion. H & De would be internal; Do would be external. H would be pulling and De would be pushing. I’m not sure whether Do would be pulling or pushing. They’d correspond to the Spiritual/ Enhancement quadrant. This grouping would have a Dawnshard about bonds. Unity?

I think Ambition and Autonomy are together. If Odium is telling the truth about being ‘Passion’ then it goes here too. Assuming they form a three parts of four: Am & O are internal; Au is external. Am is pulling and O & Au are pushing. This group would probably correlate to the Cognitive/Mental group. This Dawnshard probably has something to do with drive or will.

Preservation would be the only known member of the fourth group (unless Odium is actually ‘Void’). P would be external pushing, and the quadrant would correlate to the Temporal/Hybrid group. This Dawnshard probably has something to do with existence/survival. (Possibly irrelevant, because of two feruchemical metals being swapped, but the Hybrid grouping of Feruchemy includes elements necessary for survival - air, food, health, and the will to survive.)

If I’m right about all this, then: 

Change: Cultivation, Endowment, Ruin. Missing: Internal Pulling Shardic intent.

Unify?: Honor, Devotion, Dominion. Missing: External Shardic intent; push/pull status unknown.

Act?: Ambition, Autonomy, Odium? Missing: External Pulling Shardic intent.

Survive?: Preservation. Missing: Internal pushing and pulling and External pulling.

Note: I see Pulling as more active and Pushing as more passive. So Ruin ‘pulls’ things toward destruction, while Cultivation ‘pushes’ them to accomplish.
 

I also think ‘pushing’ Shards may be better at seeing the future, but that that is further varied by intent. 
 

End quote.

Part of this theory is that Allomancy reflects the Dawnshard/Shard quadrants due to Scadrial being created AFTER the Shattering. Where the other planets adapted to the changes, Scadrial was created in a new reality and it, and its magic systems, reflect that.

 

I love the idea of Purpose. As a verb, I have the word Act right now. Survive is likely to be accurate

Spoiler

due to Kell hearing the command in the Pits.

I’m pretty sure it’s the one Hoid held.

Edited November 8, 2020 by Kingsdaughter613

[Sleepspren]

11 hours ago, Kinolee said:

I agree!

I really like your theory about the Intents all having a subgroup as well as a main group... Brandon definitely likes his overlapping connections.  That the Shards/Intents could be sorted not only by their 4 main categories, but also by a common subcategory, sounds exactly like something Brandon would design.  It reminds me of how the metals can be split up into 4 broad categories, but also they can be split up according to internal vs. external, push vs. pull etc.  So I like your idea, I just don't think I'm sold on the idea that the subgroups are the same as the primary groups.  Like Unite -> Unite doesn't seem like it's a super useful categorization.  And also I don't know that there is a large enough difference between Change -> Unite and Unite -> Change.  To me, it would make much more sense if the subgroups were something completely different than the primary groups.

So, stealing your idea of a map/subgroups, but changing it just a little bit, and using the Commands I came up with, it looks kinda like this:

• Change - External - Positive = 
• Change - External - Negative = Ruin
• Change - Internal - Positive = Cultivation
• Change - Internal - Negative = Endowment (?)
• Unite - External - Positive = Honor
• Unite - External - Negative = Dominion
• Unite - Internal - Positive =
• Unite - Internal - Negative =
• Survive - External - Positive = Preservation
• Survive - External - Negative = The shard that just wants to hide and survive
• Survive - Internal - Positive =
• Survive - Internal - Negative =
• Choose - External - Positive = Devotion
• Choose - External - Negative = Ambition
• Choose - Internal - Positive = Autonomy
• Choose - Internal - Negative = Odium

Endowment is consistently the hardest Intent for me to place.  That one and the Selish Shards -- the Intents seem so hard to define/understand.

And also I'm not super sold on the external/internal positive/negative terminology.  Just trying to think like Brandon, and this really really just reminds me of Scadrian metal classification.  And, in a real world way, it would make sense for Brandon to have this kind of classification system on his mind when writing/designing Mistborn which was his first multi-part series in the Cosmere.

And also, just to be honest, I'm in the camp that isn't a fan of Divide/Destroy being one of the Commands.  That doesn't seem like something that would be designed with the intent of using it to create life.  Death is a part of life, but I feel like that is encompassed well enough by Change.  And I feel like there's just going to have to be two camps on this issue until we get further hints about the Dawnshards from WOB or from other texts.  Gotta say I LOVE all the dialogue about it, and that there's competing ideas!

What do you think?

 

I love your proposed categories, and I agree with them quite a bit. However, I'm unsure of "Choose" being an appropriate substitute for "Care". Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding something, but I've always understood choice as involving some capacity to pick alternatives. While Autonomy would be preserving the capacity for choice in this respect, I think some of what we know about the other shards under this category either contradicts or does not follow this conception of choice. For example, take Odium's unmade.  While Sja-anat would fall neatly under a subcategory of "choice" (chooses to disobey Odium, is driven by other wants), Nergaoul and Ashertmarn are both mindless (have no capacity for choosing alternatives) and one can only preserve his or her capacity for choice by resisting their influence (Veil in the Cult's party and Dalinar during the end of Oathbringer). "Care", while it doesn't fit quite well, wouldn't really pose any apparent contradiction here and would fit far better than "Choose". 

What I'm a bit confused about though, is whether the influence of these shards is prior to or explanatory of the natures or actions of those they influence. I think I'm leaning towards the former. Dalinar's momentum caused him to act violently under Nergaoul's influence, but he didn't act to fulfill some sort of goal or desire that was created by Nergaoul. I'm not sure if this would apply to everything Odium or the other shards influence though. I think them being prior would also work better to further separate this category from "Change". If we consider this category as explanatory, then it would be complementing "Change" and would almost be meaningless without it. It would sort of translate to "The purpose behind changing". But that shouldn't always be the case. I think it's possible for someone to be possess a strong ambition or emotion without that emotion causing them to do something (for the lack of capacity to change, or overcoming these desires with rational thought). Yet we would still call these emotions there even when actions do not follow from them.

This makes me think that while the fourth category can influence actions and choices, it shouldn't be restricted to them.

I propose that the category should instead be "See". Except for maybe Autonomy, the other shards seem to heavily influence one's perception and cognition. I think if there were a Shard for reason or rationality, it would also fit under this category. I think this theory is supported a bit by how the Alethi and the Veden seem to perceive things very differently under the influence of the Thrill. You could also say the death rattles are an alteration of the perception of the near-dead. I also think you can similarly explain the influence of Sja-anat and Ashertmarn. If Devotion would influence religious faith, then you might use this to show how extreme religious fervor can cause people to perceive things very differently. I think maybe Autonomy could account for one's perception as being individual from the whole? But perhaps that might fit better as a negative under Unite.

I would then categorize them under the command of "See" as such:

• See - External - Positive = Devotion
• See - External - Negative = Ambition
• See - Internal - Positive = Odium
• See - Internal - Negative = (Reason/Rationality/Wisdom?)

I'm honestly unsure how to think of the Positive/Negative distinction. If it were a push/pull distinction, then I suppose Ambition and my placeholder for rationality (if it is indeed a shard) are pulling, while Devotion and Odium are pushing. But I'm really unsure about this.

But that's just how it all fit together in my head. Please tell me if you have any thoughts about this, and if you think I made any errors or disagree with how I approached my conclusion.

 

[Personification]

3 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Snipped for length

So, I generally like this theory (I currently think it is either this or that the Dawnshards are four Commands and that their are four other Intents, which combine to make the sixteen shards), but I disagree slightly on your assignments.

In the Change column, I agree with your Shards, but I think Endowment and Cultivation both have to be External. They both imply change from an outside force. Ruin, however, is Internal, as it is about the thing dividing itself. I would say that E Pushes, she forces gifts upon you, while C Pulls, she brings out and enhances your natural inclinations, moving them in the desired direction. I am not sure which Ruin is of Pushing or Pulling, if the theory is correct, we'd need to see the last member of the group.

In the Unite column, I think Honor is internal and Devotion and Dominion are external. Honor is about the self, even if it about how the self responds to others, while Devotion and Dominion are both entirely about external relationships. I would say that Devotion and honor Pull, while Dominion Pushes.

In the third category, which everyone seems to agree has something to do with feeling or action but nobody can quite put their finger on the name for, I agree with your groupings almost entirely, but I think Ambition Pushes, because it literally (in a sort of figurative way) pushes you forward towards your goals, while Odium Pulls, as he has been shown to draw in emotion and act like "the Void".

I also agree with Survive being the fourth one (it is funny how quickly the Shard has come to a consensus on this), either that or Maintain, and I agree that it was Hoid's. Assuming my theory that during the shattering four of the now Shards were the actual Dawnshards and the rest helped, I think that Preservation was Survive (or Maintain), Cultivation was Change, Honor was Unite, and Odium was the one that everyone sort of agrees on the general idea of but can't quite name.

------

On the other hand, if the Intents are four other powers like the Dawnshards, perhaps Passion is one of them (I generally think they would be infinitives, but that is a different side of theory), and Odium is Feel/Act/Desire/Whatever x Passion and Ruin is Change x Passion, which would explain their italicization. Of course, Ruin being Change and Passion doesn't really add up, but whatever. Maybe Passion replaces Push or Pull (or Internal/External) so you get Passion/Dispassion (or something) on one axis, and another binary on the other. Isn't random guessing with minimal data fun!

[Kingsdaughter613]

2 minutes ago, Personification said:

So, I generally like this theory (I currently think it is either this or that the Dawnshards are four Commands and that their are four other Intents, which combine to make the sixteen shards), but I disagree slightly on your assignments.

In the Change column, I agree with your Shards, but I think Endowment and Cultivation both have to be External. They both imply change from an outside force. Ruin, however, is Internal, as it is about the thing dividing itself. I would say that E Pushes, she forces gifts upon you, while C Pulls, she brings out and enhances your natural inclinations, moving them in the desired direction. I am not sure which Ruin is of Pushing or Pulling, if the theory is correct, we'd need to see the last member of the group.

In the Unite column, I think Honor is internal and Devotion and Dominion are external. Honor is about the self, even if it about how the self responds to others, while Devotion and Dominion are both entirely about external relationships. I would say that Devotion and honor Pull, while Dominion Pushes.

In the third category, which everyone seems to agree has something to do with feeling or action but nobody can quite put their finger on the name for, I agree with your groupings almost entirely, but I think Ambition Pushes, because it literally (in a sort of figurative way) pushes you forward towards your goals, while Odium Pulls, as he has been shown to draw in emotion and act like "the Void".

I also agree with Survive being the fourth one (it is funny how quickly the Shard has come to a consensus on this), either that or Maintain, and I agree that it was Hoid's. Assuming my theory that during the shattering four of the now Shards were the actual Dawnshards and the rest helped, I think that Preservation was Survive (or Maintain), Cultivation was Change, Honor was Unite, and Odium was the one that everyone sort of agrees on the general idea of but can't quite name.

------

On the other hand, if the Intents are four other powers like the Dawnshards, perhaps Passion is one of them (I generally think they would be infinitives, but that is a different side of theory), and Odium is Feel/Act/Desire/Whatever x Passion and Ruin is Change x Passion, which would explain their italicization. Of course, Ruin being Change and Passion doesn't really add up, but whatever. Maybe Passion replaces Push or Pull (or Internal/External) so you get Passion/Dispassion (or something) on one axis, and another binary on the other. Isn't random guessing with minimal data fun!

So my reasoning is as follows:

Ruin is the force of Entropy, which exists outside the individual. It’s also the ultimate end, which everyone is pulled toward. Also, Ruin is specifically not the destruction of the individual. 
 

Cultivation is obviously external; it’s someone from outside affecting change on growth.
 

Endowment is internal, because people are naturally Endowed with certain abilities and rights. Even her magic system is similar; the people are born with inherent extra Investiture. Endowments can be internal.

 

Dominion is external, because it has to with land ownership. That’s obviously outside the individual. It’s the bond between a person and a physical place.

 

Devotion is internal, because it’s the bonds between people.

Honor I see as internal, because Honor is individual. Everyone has a different idea of what is honorable and what is binding. A Highspren can accept a Skybreaker loyal to the Pirate or Thieves code. Something like Law or Judgement would be external, but Honor is an internal force in all of us. 

I actually think this grouping is where we would have a Knowledge/Wisdom shard, as the bonds of learning are an external bonding force.

 

Ambition can pull as much as it pushes. Ambition pulls you forward. I see hatred, and passion in general, as fueling actions and ambitions.

Or: Odium is the more passive force, while Ambition is more active. I could see them swapped though. I really see these two as almost like Tin and Pewter, where the push/pull isn’t as obvious or Brass and Zinc, where both result in the same thing. So it’s kind of hard to say.

 

I’m going with Survive, because we’ve seen that particular Command. I think a lot of us went “Oh, that explains it!” regarding a certain odd event on Scadrial as soon as we learned about Dawnshards. I actually thought this one would be some variant of “Be” but not “Be” itself. Exist, Survive, etc. And Survive is the one we actually heard spoken.

 

I don’t know if I agree that the Shards were once Dawnshards. If they were though, I agree on who had what, with one exception: I think Ambition held the ‘drive to act’ Dawnshard.

[Personification]

3 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

So my reasoning is as follows:

Ruin is the force of Entropy, which exists outside the individual. It’s also the ultimate end, which everyone is pulled toward. Also, Ruin is specifically not the destruction of the individual. 

I don't see entropy as an "outside force" really. Entropy is the dissipation of energy. It is the object slowly losing itself. In fact, in pointing this out I am moving towards Ruin being a Pushing Shard, as entropy is the energy moving away from the object, though it could still be pulling, as it acts kind of like allomantic aluminum.

Quote

Cultivation is obviously external; it’s someone from outside affecting change on growth.
 

Endowment is internal, because people are naturally Endowed with certain abilities and rights. Even her magic system is similar; the people are born with inherent extra Investiture. Endowments can be internal.

Endowment means giving gifts. The idea that people are "naturally endowed with something" implies that either some deity actively chose to give the gift (as is the case with Edgli herself and the Returned) or is a somewhat poetic way of saying that they are a "gift" of nature. You can't have an endowment without a giver. The Breath is a gift, Endowed by Endowment, not a natural aspect of humans.

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Dominion is external, because it has to with land ownership. That’s obviously outside the individual. It’s the bond between a person and a physical place.

 

Devotion is internal, because it’s the bonds between people.

Honor I see as internal, because Honor is individual. Everyone has a different idea of what is honorable and what is binding. A Highspren can accept a Skybreaker loyal to the Pirate or Thieves code. Something like Law or Judgement would be external, but Honor is an internal force in all of us. 

I actually think this grouping is where we would have a Knowledge/Wisdom shard, as the bonds of learning are an external bonding force.

I agree that Dominion is external, but it isn't about land. Dominion is about control, whether over people, land, or something else.

I also agree that Devotion, is usually about bonds between people (though it can be to a cause), but I think that this is why it is External. You have to be devoted to something, much like you have to have dominion over something. Both are about relationships to an outside object.

I pretty much agree with your reasoning on Honor, and I actually agree that a Knowledge Shard would go into the last spot here, but I think it would be Internal, as knowledge is internal and individual.

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Ambition can pull as much as it pushes. Ambition pulls you forward. I see hatred, and passion in general, as fueling actions and ambitions.

Or: Odium is the more passive force, while Ambition is more active. I could see them swapped though. I really see these two as almost like Tin and Pewter, where the push/pull isn’t as obvious or Brass and Zinc, where both result in the same thing. So it’s kind of hard to say.

This the problem with the Push/Pull dichotomy. When there is no source of the force, they are effectively the same thing, so the meanings are muddy.

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I’m going with Survive, because we’ve seen that particular Command. I think a lot of us went “Oh, that explains it!” regarding a certain odd event on Scadrial as soon as we learned about Dawnshards. I actually thought this one would be some variant of “Be” but not “Be” itself. Exist, Survive, etc. And Survive is the one we actually heard spoken.

 

I don’t know if I agree that the Shards were once Dawnshards. If they were though, I agree on who had what, with one exception: I think Ambition held the ‘drive to act’ Dawnshard

Yeah, I think that is why everyone likes Survive so much, it just immediately resonates with Mistborn readers (i.e. everyone who subscribes to a theory that is 90% based on our fandom's collective obsession with making everything fit into the pattern of Mistborn's magic system even though Mistborn was written before Brandon really knew what he was doing with the Cosmere). I also like it, my only thing is that I'm not sure how consistent it is with imparting on Hoid the inability to harm animals, and it is a bit far removed from Preservation.

[Kingsdaughter613]

40 minutes ago, Personification said:

I don't see entropy as an "outside force" really. Entropy is the dissipation of energy. It is the object slowly losing itself. In fact, in pointing this out I am moving towards Ruin being a Pushing Shard, as entropy is the energy moving away from the object, though it could still be pulling, as it acts kind of like allomantic aluminum.

Endowment means giving gifts. The idea that people are "naturally endowed with something" implies that either some deity actively chose to give the gift (as is the case with Edgli herself and the Returned) or is a somewhat poetic way of saying that they are a "gift" of nature. You can't have an endowment without a giver. The Breath is a gift, Endowed by Endowment, not a natural aspect of humans.

I agree that Dominion is external, but it isn't about land. Dominion is about control, whether over people, land, or something else.

I also agree that Devotion, is usually about bonds between people (though it can be to a cause), but I think that this is why it is External. You have to be devoted to something, much like you have to have dominion over something. Both are about relationships to an outside object.

I pretty much agree with your reasoning on Honor, and I actually agree that a Knowledge Shard would go into the last spot here, but I think it would be Internal, as knowledge is internal and individual.

This the problem with the Push/Pull dichotomy. When there is no source of the force, they are effectively the same thing, so the meanings are muddy.

Yeah, I think that is why everyone likes Survive so much, it just immediately resonates with Mistborn readers (i.e. everyone who subscribes to a theory that is 90% based on our fandom's collective obsession with making everything fit into the pattern of Mistborn's magic system even though Mistborn was written before Brandon really knew what he was doing with the Cosmere). I also like it, my only thing is that I'm not sure how consistent it is with imparting on Hoid the inability to harm animals, and it is a bit far removed from Preservation.

Actually, my reasoning has more to do with Kell hearing the command Survive at the Pits of Hathsin. When Rysn heard the command, it reminded me very vividly of that.

[Rainier]

16 hours ago, ftl said:

Since 4x4=16, is there any way to think of each Shard as embodying two of of the Dawnshard Commands?

I'm partial to Four Commands, and Four Intents. We also see the Positive/Negative and Internal/External as a way to get another group of four to combine with the Commands we're all speculating about.

 

[Personification]

28 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Actually, my reasoning has more to do with Kell hearing the command Survive at the Pits of Hathsin. When Rysn heard the command, it reminded me very vividly of that.

That is what I meant, too. The other part was me somewhat comically pointing out that only people who have read Mistborn would think of it, but at the same time the only reason the theories are structured like this is that we are forcing parallels to alomancy, so everyone who is looking at this theory has almost definitely read Mistborn.

[Kingsdaughter613]

3 hours ago, Personification said:

That is what I meant, too. The other part was me somewhat comically pointing out that only people who have read Mistborn would think of it, but at the same time the only reason the theories are structured like this is that we are forcing parallels to alomancy, so everyone who is looking at this theory has almost definitely read Mistborn.

Oh, lol, yes! I get it now, thanks.

 

My underlying theory is that because Scadrial was created post-shattering, it reflects the nature of the post-Shattering Cosmere.

 

And, seriously. Four groups with four parts each. The number 16, which is important to Scadrial and the Cosmere as a whole. Mistborn being the Cosmere endgame It’s practically screaming - “There’s a Connection here!!” and now we finally have a hint as to WHY there is one.

[albenraph]

Can someone remind me how we know it wasn't Leras who said SURVIVE?

[Personification]

26 minutes ago, albenraph said:

Can someone remind me how we know it wasn't Leras who said SURVIVE?

Mistborn Stuff:

Spoiler

It might have been Leras (that is why I think (if the theory is true in other respects) he held that Dawnshard), but we also know Preservation couldn't really communicate with people, only Ruin. That's why he did the whole Mist Spirit thing. There is actually a good chance that it WAS Ruin, as he needed Kelsier to destroy tFE (which Leras actually supported, because it was so well preserved). Kel and Vin were both Ruin's pawns for most of the first two books.

 

[Ashbringer]

36 minutes ago, Personification said:

Mistborn Stuff:

  Hide contents

It might have been Leras (that is why I think (if the theory is true in other respects) he held that Dawnshard), but we also know Preservation couldn't really communicate with people, only Ruin. That's why he did the whole Mist Spirit thing. There is actually a good chance that it WAS Ruin, as he needed Kelsier to destroy tFE (which Leras actually supported, because it was so well preserved). Kel and Vin were both Ruin's pawns for most of the first two books.

 

Also:

Spoiler

At the time, Kelsier was right on top of Ruin's Perpendicularity. And was also going mad. More points for Ruin and not a Dawnshard.

I still think there's a Dawnshard somewhere on Scadrial, but if there is a clue I don't think that's it.

 

[Kingsdaughter613]

15 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

Also:

  Hide contents

At the time, Kelsier was right on top of Ruin's Perpendicularity. And was also going mad. More points for Ruin and not a Dawnshard.

I still think there's a Dawnshard somewhere on Scadrial, but if there is a clue I don't think that's it.

 

The thing is, it seems to have been the last push for Kell to snap, because something is weird about that too. Thirty-five is really old for snapping. Since Allomancy comes of an inborn Connection to Preservation, Ruin interfering are that moment could have prevented that from happening, especially considering how hard it was for Kell to snap in the first place.

That whole thing is weird.

Also, Survive is the command of self-preservation. I don’t see Ruin giving that command, particularly when it seems to have stuck around. And Kell wasn’t spiked, and Ruin was better trapped then than he was when the Well was nearly full.

So I doubt it was Ruin. I don’t think it was a Dawnshard either, though the Kandra homeland nearby would be a good place to hide one.

Here’s a weird thought: what if it was one of the other Shards who were spying on Scadrial at the time?

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 11/7/2020 at 8:42 AM, Kinolee said:

The unknown shard "who just wants to hide and survive." -- Obviously belongs in this category even though we don't know what the true intent is.

The Intent is only tangentially related to this, so I don't see why it belongs in here any more than any other Shard that wants to not die.

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Seonid

I've heard about a Shard that just wants to survive, hiding off-- it doesn't have a planet it doesn't--

Brandon Sanderson

Right.

Seonid

--out there in space, trying to survive. Does it have the intent of like Fear, or something like that?

Brandon Sanderson

The intent is related but only tangentially. Mostly it just knows what's going on and is smart enough to get out of there.

Bands of Mourning release party (Jan. 25, 2016)

 

[Personification]

1 hour ago, beewall said:

The Intent is only tangentially related to this, so I don't see why it belongs in here any more than any other Shard that wants to not die.

 

I mean, so is Preservation. All we have is tangents.