Mid-Range Game 46: A Broken Imperium

[Quintessential]

8 hours ago, TJ Shade said:

This post sounds very hedgy. I actually think Reading is village (or village aligned TLR) since Reading is now pursuing a lynch on Gears, and if Reading was indeed WGG'd elim, he knows Gears lynch and Gears flipping village would only implicate him. 

 wouldn't village-aligned TLR *also* not vote Gears? TLR, regardless of what alignment he is, but *especially* if he's village ('cause PMs are dependent upon his survival), has the ultimate goal of staying alive as long as possible. If Gears gets lynched and flips village, the next person we're going to lynch is Reading. That just makes sense. 

Also Reading I sincerely hope you've *realized* that if you *are* village-aligned TLR.

[Shard of Reading]

Okay, I know you're not going to like this but for PM reasons,

Gears Fadran

[Channelknight Fadran]

15 hours ago, Quinn0928 said:

Gah I can't believe I'm doing this, it directly contradicts what I *just* said.... I'm sorry if this seems sus, I promise there is a very very good PM reason that I can't say, but Gears Fadran

3 minutes ago, Shard of Reading said:

Okay, I know you're not going to like this but for PM reasons,

Gears Fadran

Okay. Who the heck is PMing you guys?

[Shard of Reading]

2 minutes ago, Channelknight Fadran said:

Okay. Who the heck is PMing you guys?

I don't like to share PM's I've received, it feels like betraying trust those people put in me.

[Channelknight Fadran]

Just now, Shard of Reading said:

I don't like to share PM's I've received, it feels like betraying trust those people put in me.

I trusted you, but you're about to lynch me.

That's fair.

[Gears]

While these PM reasons appear to be beneficial for me, I still dislike this. How am I supposed to trust this sudden switch off of me when the only evidence is concealed within the depths of Private Messaging? Am I being framed by a coordinated team of elims? Am I being saved by a coordinated team of villagers? Is Fadran being killed by a coordinated team of elims? Is Fadran being killed by a coordinated team of villagers? It would be all too easy for PMers to lie about the contents of their PMs and make up reasons. Elims can just lie and people will go along with it because of "PM reasons". Keeping secrets hurts the village. I, and the village at large, am left without knowledge, confused by the changing tides, and if you tell me this knowledge through PMs, I will inevitably become entrapped in the web of PMs that Quinn and Reading seem to have been caught in. Why are you doing this? How does this help you? Why is Fadran a more desireable target than me? Give me your knowledge, but don't indoctrinate me into your "PM reasons" cult. Just tell us. Give us your secrets, your knowledge, your pain. 

[Quintessential]

1 minute ago, Gears said:

While these PM reasons appear to be beneficial for me, I still dislike this. How am I supposed to trust this sudden switch off of me when the only evidence is concealed within the depths of Private Messaging? Am I being framed by a coordinated team of elims? Am I being saved by a coordinated team of villagers? Is Fadran being killed by a coordinated team of elims? Is Fadran being killed by a coordinated team of villagers? It would be all too easy for PMers to lie about the contents of their PMs and make up reasons. Elims can just lie and people will go along with it because of "PM reasons". Keeping secrets hurts the village. I, and the village at large, am left without knowledge, confused by the changing tides, and if you tell me this knowledge through PMs, I will inevitably become entrapped in the web of PMs that Quinn and Reading seem to have been caught in. Why are you doing this? How does this help you? Why is Fadran a more desireable target than me? Give me your knowledge, but don't indoctrinate me into your "PM reasons" cult. Just tell us. Give us your secrets, your knowledge, your pain. 

Gears, think reasonably for a moment. If everyone posted the things they learned in PMs on the main thread, the elims would have a much easier time targeting the people who could be most effective against them. Nobody would ever roleclaim, and TLR would be forced to stay entirely silent or align with the elims. Yes, I agree that keeping all these secrets isn't ideal, but the alternative is worse. This game is all about walking the delicate balance between trust and suspicion (and also note that this is only my second game so it shouldn't surprise you if I'm not good at that balance yet). 

[Channelknight Fadran]

From what I've heard, there isn't even very much reasoning for voting for me. It sounds like someone's trying to expose something and use me as bait for something.

[Quintessential]

Just now, Channelknight Fadran said:

From what I've heard, there isn't even very much reasoning for voting for me. It sounds like someone's trying to expose something and use me as bait for something.

Use you as bait? I'm not quite sure what you mean by that

[Channelknight Fadran]

Just now, Quinn0928 said:

Use you as bait? I'm not quite sure what you mean by that

Draw someone out into saying something by putting me up on the gallows. Create a train for people to hop onto, and expose the people who aren't generally bandwagoners.

[Gears]

3 minutes ago, Quinn0928 said:

Gears, think reasonably for a moment. If everyone posted the things they learned in PMs on the main thread, the elims would have a much easier time targeting the people who could be most effective against them. Nobody would ever roleclaim, and TLR would be forced to stay entirely silent or align with the elims. Yes, I agree that keeping all these secrets isn't ideal, but the alternative is worse. This game is all about walking the delicate balance between trust and suspicion (and also note that this is only my second game so it shouldn't surprise you if I'm not good at that balance yet). 

I know, I know, but it's frustrating to watch these machinations happen while I languish in the dark. Besides, I don't understand why Fadran is being lynched. Sure, they told us the wrong name once and colluded with turtle, but turtle was village, and the confusion came to light. Unless TLR scanned Fadran or something, this is not a good lynch.

1 minute ago, Channelknight Fadran said:

From what I've heard, there isn't even very much reasoning for voting for me. It sounds like someone's trying to expose something and use me as bait for something.

Well, if that's the case, then arguments against your suspicion will not work. Alas, there's nothing I can do.

[Channelknight Fadran]

6 minutes ago, Gears said:

I know, I know, but it's frustrating to watch these machinations happen while I languish in the dark. Besides, I don't understand why Fadran is being lynched. Sure, they told us the wrong name once and colluded with turtle, but turtle was village, and the confusion came to light. Unless TLR scanned Fadran or something, this is not a good lynch.

Well, if that's the case, then arguments against your suspicion will not work. Alas, there's nothing I can do.

About that... to the PM!

[Ookla-son-son-Ventyl]

This game has gone insane.

I definitely don’t agree with this Fadran lynch. Considering how Turtle flipped, shouldn’t we assume that Fadran is more likely to be a villager? They worked together, which could’ve been an elim trying to pocket Turtle, but that could easily backfire. I definitely think @Sart had a good point regarding Danex, whom I still find extremely suspicious for starting this whole train, which has done nothing but cause too much confusion to be good and get a villager killed.

[Channelknight Fadran]

2 minutes ago, Ventyl said:

This game has gone insane.

I definitely don’t agree with this Fadran lynch. Considering how Turtle flipped, shouldn’t we assume that Fadran is more likely to be a villager? They worked together, which could’ve been an elim trying to pocket Turtle, but that could easily backfire. I definitely think @Sart had a good point regarding Danex, whom I still find extremely suspicious for starting this whole train, which has done nothing but cause too much confusion to be good and get a villager killed.

To be honest, I thought turtle was pocketing me.

[Ookla-son-son-Ventyl]

1 minute ago, Channelknight Fadran said:

To be honest, I thought turtle was pocketing me.

And I don’t think either of you were actively trying to pocket each other.

Also, here is a vote count:
Gears (2): Somebody from Sel, Tj Shade
Fadran (2): Quinn, Shard of Reading
Danex (2): Sart, Ventyl

[+Whysper]

29 minutes ago, Quinn0928 said:

Gears, think reasonably for a moment. If everyone posted the things they learned in PMs on the main thread, the elims would have a much easier time targeting the people who could be most effective against them. Nobody would ever roleclaim, and TLR would be forced to stay entirely silent or align with the elims. Yes, I agree that keeping all these secrets isn't ideal, but the alternative is worse. This game is all about walking the delicate balance between trust and suspicion (and also note that this is only my second game so it shouldn't surprise you if I'm not good at that balance yet). 

It's not necessary to give away all info, especially names. But surely more info can be provided than simply PM reasons. Like I heard from a RBer that X was roleblocked. Or through PMs with 3 people it was discovered that Fadran was lying about so and so.

[Quintessential]

Just now, Whysper said:

It's not necessary to give away all info, especially names. But surely more info can be provided than simply PM reasons. Like I heard from a RBer that X was roleblocked. Or through PMs with 3 people it was discovered that Fadran was lying about so and so.

I suppose that's true... I heard something from turtle in PMs before she died, something she told me about Fadran, that makes me very suspicious of him. She seemed to trust him though, which I guess could be due to the fact that he claimed to her? Anyway, she asked me not to tell anyone because she thought suspicion would fall on him, which is part of the reason I didn't want to say anything.

I also have reason to believe that Gears *isn't* an elim, and that bit has to do with TLR. 

Yeah, I think I can say that without giving away too much...

[+Whysper]

3 minutes ago, Quinn0928 said:

I suppose that's true... I heard something from turtle in PMs before she died, something she told me about Fadran, that makes me very suspicious of him. She seemed to trust him though, which I guess could be due to the fact that he claimed to her? Anyway, she asked me not to tell anyone because she thought suspicion would fall on him, which is part of the reason I didn't want to say anything.

Hmm interesting. Thanks for providing that info. Though for me personally, I'm not sure that's enough to make me vote for Fadran, unless perhaps there's no one else. I find a lot of the info and actions from Turtle weird and confusing. So even though she flipped Villager, I'm not sure how accurate her info is.

4 minutes ago, Quinn0928 said:

I also have reason to believe that Gears *isn't* an elim, and that bit has to do with TLR. 

I'm willing to trust in this part because I've been leaning Gears as Villager already.

[Channelknight Fadran]

10 minutes ago, Whysper said:

It's not necessary to give away all info, especially names. But surely more info can be provided than simply PM reasons. Like I heard from a RBer that X was roleblocked. Or through PMs with 3 people it was discovered that Fadran was lying about so and so.

6 minutes ago, Quinn0928 said:

I suppose that's true... I heard something from turtle in PMs before she died, something she told me about Fadran, that makes me very suspicious of him. She seemed to trust him though, which I guess could be due to the fact that he claimed to her? Anyway, she asked me not to tell anyone because she thought suspicion would fall on him, which is part of the reason I didn't want to say anything.

I also have reason to believe that Gears *isn't* an elim, and that bit has to do with TLR. 

Yeah, I think I can say that without giving away too much...

I would very much like to know these lies and stuff, because I'm not an elim and I really don't wanna die.

[|TJ|]

Guys, be very careful about believing PMs because basically you're keeping the other villagers in the dark, and you're not giving the person you are accusing a chance to defend themselves. Now, as a voter of Gears, I'd like to know why do you believe Gears isn't an elim. Has another role-blocker claimed to you that they blocked someone else? If so, why is it more likely that their block targeted Reading and not the person who claimed to have blocked Gears? Anything else to explain why Gears is village, something more than "PM reasons"?

[danex]

1 hour ago, Ventyl said:

I definitely think @Sart had a good point regarding Danex

‘A good point’?? It’s one of the weakest points I’ve ever heard. If I was blatantly and explicitly lying about turtle like that, she would have absolutely said something. Because Turtle was Village. 

[Channelknight Fadran]

6 minutes ago, TJ Shade said:

Guys, be very careful about believing PMs because basically you're keeping the other villagers in the dark, and you're not giving the person you are accusing a chance to defend themselves.

Thank you!!!

[danex]

Now, I’m not super sure about what’s going on with Fadran, I don’t have any ‘PM reasons’ to cite, but I did find this quote from Mist, who Fadran replaces. 

Quote

I can play I guess and I could throw off balancing if I leave so I'll play

So this means that Fadran is something that would ‘throw off balancing’ if it wasn’t in the game. So not a Vanilla Obligator. Perhaps a Canton member, but I don’t think those would ruin the balancing too much. But do you know what would definitely ruin the balancing? Removing an Elim. 

[|TJ|]

7 minutes ago, Channelknight Fadran said:

Thank you!!!

Hey, don't thank me. xD You might still be an elim. I just find that, even if you are one, the fact that you cannot defend yourself is a bit unfair. 

[Quintessential]

1 hour ago, TJ Shade said:

Anything else to explain why Gears is village, something more than "PM reasons"?

Actually, yes. I've based almost none of my decisions on PM reasons alone this game. Generally, I decide to do something because the information I got in PMs from one person lines up with either my intuition or some kind of reasoning from actual game events. This is especially true with Gears.

Look, in retrospect doesn't it feel like the turtle lynch was just too easy? If turtle had been an elim, wouldn't we have seen votes on someone else? Similarly, I think the Gears-was-roleblocked PM-chain was too easy, and too widespread. Regardless of whether the chain was created by an elim or not, wouldn't the elims have started another chain early on to counter it if Gears actually was an elim? Wouldn't Gears have *passed on* the only counter-chain that appeared? (which we *know* he didn't do because no one has said they received the message).

If you can think of a scenario in which those two facts make sense with Gears being elim, please let me know so I can reevaluate my decisions so far. But I've been trying to come up with any explanation and the only one I can think of is that Gears is village, and just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, so to speak.