Mid-Range Game 46: A Broken Imperium

[Guest Somebody from Scadrial]

Just now, eltruT said:

We... do? 

Reading, seeing they were almost Elim killed and survived means they weren't spiked so ya

[Quintessential]

Just now, Somebody from Sel said:

Reading, seeing they were almost Elim killed and survived means they weren't spiked so ya

This is possibly a far-fetched idea, but could the elims have submitted their kill on one of their own who was spiked, knowing it might make us suspect that person less?

[Guest Somebody from Scadrial]

Just now, Quinn0928 said:

This is possibly a far-fetched idea, but could the elims have submitted their kill on one of their own who was spiked, knowing it might make us suspect that person less?

Which is almost if not more far-fetched

[Ashbringer]

Just now, Somebody from Sel said:

Reading, seeing they were almost Elim killed and survived means they weren't spiked so ya

Yeah... this throws a rather large gaping hole in all of my planning for TLR...

So, TLR's chosen a faction and we don't know which. Give me a sec.

 

Just now, Quinn0928 said:

This is possibly a far-fetched idea, but could the elims have submitted their kill on one of their own who was spiked, knowing it might make us suspect that person less?

There's no way a non-TLR Villager can survive a kill. So nope. Unless they're doing something way out there to make us think Reading's TLR, but Reading might get lynched anyway.

[danex]

Just now, Somebody from Sel said:

Reading, seeing they were almost Elim killed and survived means they weren't spiked so ya

Oh good point.
Another possibility is that the Elims were just Roleblocked, but I dunno. 

1 minute ago, Quinn0928 said:

This is possibly a far-fetched idea, but could the elims have submitted their kill on one of their own who was spiked, knowing it might make us suspect that person less?

I considered this too, and I’m not sure. It’s a possibility, but I don’t know how we’d move forward if it’s true. 

[Quintessential]

Just now, Somebody from Sel said:

Which is almost if not more far-fetched

 Yes, I know, that's why I said the idea itself was far-fetched. Again, just a thought. I'll try to contribute actual serious commentary after I reread D1's thread lol

[Mat]

3 minutes ago, Danex said:

Another possibility is that the Elims were just Roleblocked, but I dunno

If TLR or a Spiked elim is attacked, the writeup will say "___ was attacked and survived!"

If the elim submitting the kill is targeted with a roleblock, the writeup will say "___ was attacked and survived!"

[Ashbringer]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaand Shard of Reading hasn't even been on the Shard today. Fantastic.

@Shard of Reading, er... I don't even know what to say.

 

Edit: Oh. Roleblocks say survived. @ CANTON OF INQUISITION, PM someone you trust and tell them to tell us who you roleblocked. DO NOT claim to the entire thread.

Edited November 15, 2020 by Ashbringer

[danex]

2 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

Oh. Roleblocks say survived. @ CANTON OF INQUISITION, PM someone you trust and tell them to tell us who you roleblocked. DO NOT claim to the entire thread.

Idea to make sure that this Info gets out, but without endangering the Roleblocker:

we start some sort of insane PM chainmail thing. The Roleblocker PMs a few people with a message saying who they RBed, but they claim that someone messaged them the info. Those people immediately continue the train and so do those people, until we have a giant entangled mess, and the Elims won’t really be able to tell where the chain started. 
You send the message to multiple people so that the Elims can’t change the message, or if they do, we can figure out where the discrepancy is, and then who the Elims are. 

[Ashbringer]

Just now, Danex said:

Idea to make sure that this Info gets out, but without endangering the Roleblocker:

we start some sort of insane PM chainmail thing. The Roleblocker PMs a few people with a message saying who they RBed, but they claim that someone messaged them the info. Those people immediately continue the train and so do those people, until we have a giant entangled mess, and the Elims won’t really be able to tell where the chain started. 
You send the message to multiple people so that the Elims can’t change the message, or if they do, we can figure out where the discrepancy is, and then who the Elims are. 

I've... seen that happen before, but I'm not entirely sure why it's more effective than just PM'ing a single person... oh. Have the roleblocker say it's not the first in the chain. Duh.

Yeah, do that. PM chain a few times over.

[Flyingbooks]

9 minutes ago, Danex said:

Idea to make sure that this Info gets out, but without endangering the Roleblocker:

we start some sort of insane PM chainmail thing. The Roleblocker PMs a few people with a message saying who they RBed, but they claim that someone messaged them the info. Those people immediately continue the train and so do those people, until we have a giant entangled mess, and the Elims won’t really be able to tell where the chain started. 
You send the message to multiple people so that the Elims can’t change the message, or if they do, we can figure out where the discrepancy is, and then who the Elims are. 

However, there is a big risk to this that I have thougt of but won't share because I don't want to give ideas to the elims. I might be able to recognize if it's happening and say so, though.

[danex]

Here’s how I think the chain should work. 

Roleblocker, you should choose 8 people. Individually message each of those people and say exactly this. 
“I Roleblocked ___”
If you receive a message, you *immediately* PM 4 people with the exact same message: 
“I Roleblocked ___”
In this way we can have a sorta “I am Spartacus” thing where everyone claims Roleblocker. 

If you receive a second or third PM from someone, as a result of the chain going around to you again, send it to 2 people, different from the 4 you sent it to earlier. If the message is different, as a result of Elim tampering with the chain, I don’t think you should change it. The first one might’ve been the Elim changed one, there’s no way to know. Unless you are the RBer, then you can obviously change it to the actual message.

In the end, everyone will probably have 3-4 messages from the chain. We each share who the messages said, but not who sent them. Then, whoever is mentioned in the messages the most is who we Lynch. The original RBer sends the message to the most people, so it’s most likely that the most sent message is the actual RBed person.

Once the chain is in full force, the original RBer can send a few more messages, just to make sure that the real message is the most common one. 
 

Hmm, I hope we don’t have more than one RBer.....this might completely break. 

[Flyingbooks]

2 minutes ago, Danex said:

Here’s how I think the chain should work. 

Roleblocker, you should choose 8 people. Individually message each of those people and say exactly this. 
“I Roleblocked ___”
If you receive a message, you *immediately* PM 4 people with the exact same message: 
“I Roleblocked ___”
In this way we can have a sorta “I am Spartacus” thing where everyone claims Roleblocker. 

If you receive a second or third PM from someone, as a result of the chain going around to you again, send it to 2 people, different from the 4 you sent it to earlier. If the message is different, as a result of Elim tampering with the chain, I don’t think you should change it. The first one might’ve been the Elim changed one, there’s no way to know. Unless you are the RBer, then you can obviously change it to the actual message.

In the end, everyone will probably have 3-4 messages from the chain. We each share who the messages said, but not who sent them. Then, whoever is mentioned in the messages the most is who we Lynch. The original RBer sends the message to the most people, so it’s most likely that the most sent message is the actual RBed person.

Once the chain is in full force, the original RBer can send a few more messages, just to make sure that the real message is the most common one. 
 

Hmm, I hope we don’t have more than one RBer.....this might completely break. 

As I said before, there's a way that the elims could take advantage of this, especially because of their coordination. I'm beginning to suspect you a bit because the way for the elims to turn this into a free mislynch is really clear but you don't seem to be aware of it at all, which could be faked. Suggesting something like this, which seems useful but is actually easily hacked, would be a good way to gain trust while also giving the elims more influence over the next lynch.

[Guest Somebody from Scadrial]

Just gonna say, TJ is slightly sus as I read him and Illwei as Elim/Vil but I might be wrong

[danex]

1 minute ago, Flyingbooks42 said:

As I said before, there's a way that the elims could take advantage of this, especially because of their coordination. I'm beginning to suspect you a bit because the way for the elims to turn this into a free mislynch is really clear but you don't seem to be aware of it at all, which could be faked. Suggesting something like this, which seems useful but is actually easily hacked, would be a good way to gain trust while also giving the elims more influence over the next lynch.

This is true, but as you can see, I’m doing my absolute best to make it un-hackable. If I was Elim, I would just propose the idea, let the Village run with it, coordinate with other Elims to hack it, and be on my merry way to mislynch city. I definitely wouldn’t work on developing the system, because I am aware that this makes me look suspicious, especially if it goes wrong. 

[Ashbringer]

Just now, Danex said:

This is true, but as you can see, I’m doing my absolute best to make it un-hackable. If I was Elim, I would just propose the idea, let the Village run with it, coordinate with other Elims to hack it, and be on my merry way to mislynch city. I definitely wouldn’t work on developing the system, because I am aware that this makes me look suspicious, especially if it goes wrong. 

The problem with saying "Elims wouldn't do this" is that a lot of players as Elims (myself included) go out of their way to act as Village as possible, even if it loses them opportunities to gain valuable intel or save other Elims. Often the long-term trust is worth the short-term loss.

That being said, I like the overall idea. I'd also add that doing it "immediately" may cause problems - both feasibility (not everyone's on at the same time) and hackability (i.e. lists can be narrowed down if people aren't viewing the thread or active). So maybe stagger it a random amount (like not several hours, but from immediately to a few minutes to half an hour).

[Flyingbooks]

Since there's a big danger of this being used with only the elims knowing about the hack, I'll share it.

17 minutes ago, Danex said:

In the end, everyone will probably have 3-4 messages from the chain. We each share who the messages said, but not who sent them. Then, whoever is mentioned in the messages the most is who we Lynch. The original RBer sends the message to the most people, so it’s most likely that the most sent message is the actual RBed person.

Once the chain is in full force, the original RBer can send a few more messages, just to make sure that the real message is the most common one. 
 

Hmm, I hope we don’t have more than one RBer.....this might completely break. 

The elims can start new fake messages and send them out to as many people as they want. The original roleblocker would send 8 messages, but the elims can send them to everybody.  Also, it's unlikely that more than one canton of inquisition player (if there are multiple) roleblocked the same person, so each one would send out a different message, while the elims can all coordinate to send the same message. No matter how many there are, the elim messages would be greater in number and more unified.

[Mat]

The Happy Obligator has been replaced by @Sart.

[Channelknight Fadran]

Can someone point me in the direction of what various roles can do?

[danex]

2 minutes ago, Channelknight Fadran said:

Can someone point me in the direction of what various roles can do?

 

This is the main Thread for this game. Rules and Roles and everything are in the OP, and cycle threads like this one are edited into it once they are over. 

Edited November 15, 2020 by Danex

[Channelknight Fadran]

3 minutes ago, Danex said:

 

This is the main Thread for this game. Rules and Roles and everything are in the OP, and cycle threads like this one are edited into it once they are over. 

Thanks!

[Flyingbooks]

Danex, because suggesting a way to find out who was roleblocked that is simple for the elims to hack is a good way to seem helpful and village while giving the elims more control over the lynch.

@Danex, how did you not notice the way that that your plan could be hacked by the elims? Also, I received a PM from you saying that someone was roleblocked. Why would you go through with the plan after I showed how the elims might use it?

[Turtle]

3 minutes ago, Flyingbooks42 said:

Danex, because suggesting a way to find out who was roleblocked that is simple for the elims to hack is a good way to seem helpful and village while giving the elims more control over the lynch.

@Danex, how did you not notice the way that that your plan could be hacked by the elims? Also, I received a PM from you saying that someone was roleblocked. Why would you go through with the plan after I showed how the elims might use it?

Yes, but if each of us gets multiple PMs stating the same person and one that is different, it’s quite obvious which chain has been tampered with. I think the chain was a good idea.

[danex]

5 minutes ago, Flyingbooks42 said:

Danex, because suggesting a way to find out who was roleblocked that is simple for the elims to hack is a good way to seem helpful and village while giving the elims more control over the lynch.

@Danex, how did you not notice the way that that your plan could be hacked by the elims? Also, I received a PM from you saying that someone was roleblocked. Why would you go through with the plan after I showed how the elims might use it?

I did notice, and that’s why there are preventative measures in my plan. I even noticed a potentially worse hack that you didn’t. 

I PMed you because I followed my own plan and chose randomly. Rolled a digital die. 

Edited November 16, 2020 by Danex

[Ookla-son-son-Ventyl]

Danex, I’m willing to vote you out here. However much I like crazy and outrageous plans like yours, I can’t deny the point that Books made. It’s too exploitable. Also, if you really did send a PM to Books, even after they said that the plan wouldn’t work, why? 

1 minute ago, eltruT said:

Yes, but if each of us gets multiple PMs stating the same person and one that is different, it’s quite obvious which chain has been tampered with. I think the chain was a good idea.

Though, if all of the elims send the same person, then what?