Nightweaver

Could Dalinar be a Dawnshard?

47 posts in this topic

Why are people saying that Honor wouldn't be commenting on the loss of the Dawnshards if his plan depended on his visions being received by one? I'm not getting that indication.

On 11/7/2020 at 0:18 AM, FidesFortuna said:

In the OG vision Tanavast mentions how rare dawnshards are and difficult to find. I dont see him telling a "dawnshard" that they are hard to find. He would've said something like...the power is deep inside you if you have the will to find it

How would Tanavast know he was talking to a Dawnshard?

On 11/6/2020 at 3:07 PM, Child of Hodor said:

Then Honor’s fingerprints are all over this Dawnshard. This Dawnshard who he is technically directly telling isn’t available. When Dalinar hears Honor tell him “without the Dawnshards” honor is saying “without the Dawnshards” to a Dawnshard. :blink:

 

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Yeah, if I had to guess, Dawnshard's can't be really detected unless they're used. Odium and/or the Stormfather would have pushed much harder for Aimia if they knew there was a Dawnshard there, and the whole Rsyn plan relies on nobody learning that she has/is the Dawnshard now.

That would explain how Honor "lost" the Dawnshards - like literally lost track of them, in addition to losing control of them - and why Honor couldn't know that Dalinar was attuning to a UNITE.exe Dawnshard.

 

Then again, these "visions" are pre-recorded, so I don't know if Honor would be able to react to a Dawnshard Dalinar anyway. The Stormfather probably could, though.

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On 11/6/2020 at 7:40 AM, teknopathetic said:

Then we know Meleeshi used a Dawnshard to BIND which does not seem in-line with CHANGE. 

...why would a Dawnshard need to be involved there?

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52 minutes ago, beewall said:

...why would a Dawnshard need to be involved there?

Binding a whole Unmade, particularly Ba-Ado-Mishram, into a gem doesn't sound too easy though Re-Shephir was bound to one by a Lightweaver. The thing is, we haven't seen Ba-Ado-Mishram's influence in the current story afaik when she should also share Re-Shephir's ability to escape her imprisonment and influence stuff which indicates a very strong binding. 

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Just now, Hessi's Ward said:

Binding a whole Unmade, particularly Ba-Ado-Mishram, into a gem doesn't sound too easy though Re-Shephir was bound to one by a Lightweaver. The thing is, we haven't seen Ba-Ado-Mishram's influence in the current story afaik when she should also share Re-Shephir's ability to escape her imprisonment and influence stuff which indicates a very strong binding. 

I mean, could just be Re-Shephir was imprisoned in an imperfect gem and escaped, while BAM was imprisoned in a proper perfect gemstone.

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On 11/6/2020 at 3:06 AM, Nightweaver said:

I’m fully aware that this is going to come across as a pretty out-of-left-field theory but I think Dalinar may, unwittingly, be/have a Dawnshard.

We’ve learnt that Dawnshards require both Intent and a Command. Reading that capital C Command brought two thoughts to my mind: “Survive” from Mistborn, and “Unite them.” Now I’m not really sure about the former but I think there’s a case to be made for the latter.

Dalinar frequently hears the command to “Unite them” in his mind, which strikes me as similar to Rysn talking about the Command in her head. If we’re running with the idea that Rysn is the Dawnshard of Change, then I think Dalinar is the Dawnshard of Unity. When Dalinar says “I am Unity” I think it’s really a hint as to him being the Dawnshard of Unity.

Now, for the inevitable question of where in the storming cosmere could Dalinar have picked up a Dawnshard. Right now I’m wondering if it could have come from Cultivation. Initially, I was against the idea of multiple Dawnshards hanging around on Roshar when it seems like there are just 4 of them, but looking back through the text I found that the Rosharan often talks about the Dawnshards. Plural. I will admit that the Poem of Ista say “taking the Dawnshard” as if there might only be one, but the rest of the references I found in the books seemed to imply that Rosharans had heard of there being multiple. While it’s possible they simply know of multiple Dawnshards without them having to be on Roshar, I think there’s a chance that more than one could be around.

I admit that my theory is pretty rough around the edges, and if anyone has any thoughts or WoBs that support or even disprove my theory I’d love to hear them!

I cracked the code...The wok book in the actually story was the dawnshard.  Dalinar is holding it when become unity.  then odium lightening strikes it when he realizes what it was.  Also would account for why dalinar has been hear "unite them" for so long.  he's had the book a long time.  also means that gavilar probably knew it was a dawnshard.  "brother, find the most important words a man can say"

Edited by chewprune
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I like this idea of Dalinar becoming the Dawnshard of the Divine Command of Unity. 

It tickles me right, thank you!

It made me think some profound interesting things..

Firstly, is anyone else thinking that Tanavast may have been deliberately misleading in his visions knowing full well that Raise would be able to hack them? I feel like Tanavast may have had a chuckle over Rayse spending years trying to figure out if he meant Dawnshards as a plural or a title..

Secondly, I feel the idea of "change" could be used to "bind", so to speak. E.g. I change the strength of your magical / non magical bonds..

Anywhere, fun theory! Fun book!

One more week!!

!~HIF~!

Edited by Hoids Imaginary Friend
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Someone asked him on Reddit if the warm golden light that Dalinar has dreams about is similar to what Rysn feels. 

He replied with "RAFO but it is a worthy line of conjecture" 

 

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4 hours ago, Potus said:

Someone asked him on Reddit if the warm golden light that Dalinar has dreams about is similar to what Rysn feels. 

He replied with "RAFO but it is a worthy line of conjecture" 

Yeah, here is the exact WoB:

Quote

Dalinarium

While reading Dawnshard I remembered something...Dalinar's odd dreams about warm golden light that is very similar to what Rysn experienced.

Is there any connections? Maybe Dalinar is connected to another Dawnshard?

Brandon Sanderson

I will RAFO this, but it's a worthy line of conjecture.

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 11, 2020)

 

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On 11/7/2020 at 1:36 AM, Ashbringer said:

It’s also possible that you can’t just tell if someone’s a Dawnshard or not.

Exactly - if there were an easy way to do so, then the Sleepless would never have let Rsyn leave with one. The idea of hiding it in a mortal would imply that you can't just look at a mortal and tell if they are one.

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Yeah the golden light and the talk about a dawnshard being a command really makes me think that Dalinar must be a dawnshard with the UNITE command. I think that he somehow received it through the way of kings and I don't think that the stormfather has any idea that Dalinar is a dawnshard. As Dalinar is a radiant I think that it's likely he'll be able to use it properly eventually.

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On 6/11/2020 at 3:12 PM, Child of Hodor said:

All four Dawnshards are a Command, like what Awakeners on Nalthis use, the place where invested people see enhanced colors. Why has Dalinar never commented on seeing really vibrant colors like Rysn does? 

Maybe spoilers ahead:

 

Do you remember the sun Rysn saw? It was divided in 4 symmetrical sections (4 Dawnshards, 4 Commands), each one parted into other 4 ones (the 16 shards). Rysn is the Dawnshard CHANGE which "heads" Endowment (and which other Intent? Maybe Autonomy).

..and I agree with the OP: Dalinar is (will be) the Dawnshard of UNITY, "head" of Honor (at least). I think the bond between him and the Stormfather doesn't include that vast power shown in OB (to open a perpendicularity etc). The Stormfather also seemed incredulous. And, remember when Hoid asked Dalinar if he had ever heard of the word Adonalsium (shattered by one or more than one Command/Dawnshard so they will be really instrumental in a new cosmere equilibrium). 

Maybe the other 2 Commands will not be from the Rosharan system :-k

 

Edited by blackcatw81
Grammar correction
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Spoiler for Dawnshard:

There are 2 things that perplexed me: first is that "Nikkli" asked Rysn to not bond a spren.. but I think, from what "he" said that it's possible for a Dawnshard to bond a spren.

Second: if Dalinar will be a Dawnshard he would be instrumental in defeating Rayse (or at least re-unifying the shards in some way, if not the shard Passion will always try to conquer all the power).. but at the end of SA 2nd era he would be very old.. so, at least, his powers makes him not age, or.. RAFO ^^;;

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17 minutes ago, blackcatw81 said:

Spoiler for Dawnshard:

 

  Hide contents

There are 2 things that perplexed me: first is that "Nikkli" asked Rysn to not bond a spren.. but I think, from what "he" said that it's possible for a Dawnshard to bond a spren.

Second: if Dalinar will be a Dawnshard he would be instrumental in defeating Rayse (or at least re-unifying the shards in some way, if not the shard Passion will always try to conquer all the power).. but at the end of SA 2nd era he would be very old.. so, at least, his powers makes him not age, or.. RAFO ^^;;

 

Further Dawnshard spoilers/Dawnshard-relevant WoB spoilers:

Spoiler

Hoid is immortal because he is/was a Dawnshard, and that's also why he can't hurt living things.

 

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25 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Further Dawnshard spoilers/Dawnshard-relevant WoB spoilers:

  Hide contents

Hoid is immortal because he is/was a Dawnshard, and that's also why he can't hurt living things.

 

There's really a WoB on this? :o Sadly I can't follow all this matter!  T_T

And if this is the case:

why is he collecting investiture from all the planets in the cosmere? This would be futile :-k

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Just now, blackcatw81 said:

There's really a WoB on this? :o Sadly I can't follow all this matter!  T_T

And if this is the case:

  Hide contents

why is he collecting investiture from all the planets in the cosmere? This would be futile :-k

 

Spoiler

That's why I think he is indeed no longer a Dawnshard, and that's why the Sleepless aren't freaking out about him getting a Spren (though, I doubt they could stop him regardless).

He may also be trying to gather enough Investiture to power his Dawnshard, instead, and the Sleepless aren't aware that he has one. I mean, the whole point of leaving Change inside Rysn is that it's hard to tell if someone is a Dawnshard.

 

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37 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Further Dawnshard spoilers/Dawnshard-relevant WoB spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

Hoid is immortal because he is/was a Dawnshard, and that's also why he can't hurt living things.

 

I read the WoB on Reddit.. WOOOOW! So for my doubts on Hoid

he isn't a Dawnshard anymore so he's collecting a bit of every shard hoping to gain power in contrasting Rayse.

 

Really unbelievable <3 can't wait for RoW in a few days *_*

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Another tidbit that makes me agree with the OP is that the visions related to the warm light Dalinar experienced weren't given by the Stormfather (he didn't know about this visions and told Dalinar so).

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On 11/6/2020 at 8:54 AM, teknopathetic said:

Well the Sleepless forbade Rysn from making a spren bond, so Dalinar being an Bondsmith and a Command-Holder might be their worst-case scenario. Though it is possible that Bind is less destructive than Change, and that Change is the one they are most worried about. 
 

 

It feels like a massive failure on the part of the Sleepless (and whatever Dawnshard guarding organization they're a part of) if they not only let another person become a dawnshard but that that person also became a bond smith with access to Honor's power. That's the magic combo of command + intent + investiture that would make Dalinar one of the most dangerous people in the entire cosmere if true.  

There's also WOB that "[The sleepless] never thought, in a million years, the intruders would absorb the Dawnshard. It wasn't seen as possible for a variety of reasons". So there was some way of hiding Dawnshard's so that it was though they couldn't be put back into people. The other three are likely that way. Another WOB says that the one Dawnshard that is "different from the rest" is still different following the book, so that difference wasn't the fact that the rest are in people and one was in a mural. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

On 6.11.2020 at 2:32 PM, Child of Hodor said:

I get where you are coming from. I think it's possible, I can't disprove it with a WoB or anything. I will argue against it though :)

Just a month ago I would have argued with this, but we have some new WoBs that I believe indicate you have a point.

First, a question whether or not Honor can be reformed will be answered in Book 5:

Quote

CaptainObvious0927

The really question is, given the death of Rayse, is honor really dead? Or is his essence out there, still available to be claimed?

Brandon Sanderson

I will answer this for certain by the end of Book Five. For now, RAFO.

General Reddit 2020 (Nov. 22, 2020)

Second, Brandon recently described the mechanism of visions / voices Dalinar experiences and it seems that these are Investiture constructs / AIs:

Quote

Gordon Kelsch

Can Dalinar permanently bring someone back from the Spiritual Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

No. In fact, whether or not the voices he is hearing are legitimately voices from beyond the Spiritual Realm, or if they're a manifestation much like the visions that the Stormfather creates, where Dalinar's desire for certain things is basically creating... So when Dalinar goes into the visions, what's going on there is: these are not people with autonomy that he is interacting with. These are Investiture manifesting a basic AI that is able to adapt, cause Investiture kind of can do this.

Dalinar would argue, "Yes, that's the case except for when I actually met Nohadon. That character felt different, that felt like the real Nohadon stretching through the Spiritual Realm and actually interacting." Jasnah would say, "No, that's because, Dalinar, you have such, in your mind, a hope and desire to see Nohadon, he's this mythological figure in your head, that basically the Stormfather's knowledge of who he actually was was creating this much more animated puppet that was more like actually how Nohadon was, but was based on knowledge of the spren and the Investiture that you're interacting with." And Dalinar would say, "I heard Evi's voice." Jasnah would say, "You heard the Investiture coming to life and speaking with her voice the things you needed to hear. And it wasn't that the Stormfather was like, 'He needs to hear this, I'm going to create this fake..' But it's instead your relationship with this magical force that does take on life of its own, manifesting this thing." Which one it is, I do not answer. Both are, I consider, equally valid interpretations of the text, and equally valid interpretations of the magic system.

Once someone is passed into the Beyond, there is no force that can bring them back, according to people's understanding of the magic system. There is even the argument that Cognitive Shadows are not the person. That the Cognitive Shadow is indeed a spren with the memories and an imprint of the person's personality that becomes self aware and continued on living that person. It's kind of the same question that arises in Star Trek. When you are ripped apart and rebuilt piece by piece with the transporter, some people in Star Trek do not believe you are becoming the same person again. You are then a different individual who has been cloned from the person and had the memories attached. Functionally, in the narrative, for the reader, it's the same. Is it the same soul or not? That question is answered differently by different people in the Cosmere. There are equally valid interpretations from the reader. You get to decide, basically. You get to decide, just like if there's a story where a person's brain is uploaded to a computer, you get to decide: is that the same person? Because we can't do that, we don't know. Is that the exact same individual, or is that a computer simulation of that person, where the person has died? That's what a Cognitive Shadow essentially is, but using Cosmere physics instead of theoretical science fiction physics.

YouTube Livestream 23 (Dec. 17, 2020)

It seems that Dalinar is pretty much ready to Ascend to Honor, he just doesn't have enough Investiture yet. He's tapping the power unconsciously though.

I still believe the Unity Dawnshard could be a thing (based on the term being used on Sel and Poem of Ista), but for now Dalinar is just using the name provided to him by Honor's remnants

Edited by KandraAllomancer
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I know that this discussion is old. But I feel I have to make this observation anyway. When we talk about dalinar constantly hearing the "Unite" command and kelsier hearing the "Survive" command, it does not have to mean they are in possession of a dawnshard. It must be called a "Command" for a reason. Isn't it possible that someone holding the corresponding dawnshard could be "Commanding" them directly in those instances? We have not actually seen what someone who has ascended to a dawnshard could actually do with it but giving Commands seems like it would probably be part of it.

Sorry if this has already been suggested.

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Dalinar having the Unity Dawnshard or at least interacting with it. I still think it's more likely that Unity is his interpretation of Honor's Intent, but even back then people were speculating on the possibility of there being more to it, now that we know about Dawnshards, it's a pretty good fit. Roshar seemed to have had more than a single Dawnshard, one of them was not like the rest, one them could bind all creatures mortal or Void-ish, this does not seem to fit the Change Dawnshard we see in the novella.

Survive Command (assuming it was a capital-C Command) was given by Preservation. There is also the thing in Secret History about a weapon that he buried that you can find in other discussions.

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