Nightweaver

Could Dalinar be a Dawnshard?

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I get where you are coming from. I think it's possible, I can't disprove it with a WoB or anything. I will argue against it though :)

My theory on the voice saying Unite Them over and over is that it's Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow.  In the visions Tanavast/Honor says "Unite Them" repeatedly. Hidden for length:

Spoiler

 

He says it in the first vision we see where the village is attacked by creatures WoK Ch. 19

He says it in the Recreance vision WoK Ch. 60

He says it in the vision where Kholinar is obliterated WoK Ch. 75.

He says it in the vision of the Thunderclast in the Purelake in WoR Ch. 4. 

He says it in the vision of the Last Desolation in Ch. 38 OB.  

 

It's hard for me to square Tanavast/Honor saying "Unite Them" in just about every Vision he created and then saying the Dawnshards won't be available to the radiants in the modern conflict in those same Visions if "Unite Them" hinges on the vision recepient being the Untiy Dawnshard. Seems unproductive. 

"Drive the car!"  ... "I sold the car, sorry!" 

Succession Plan

Tanavast planned for his death and his successor. He made it so whoever bonded the Stormfather was Connected to Honor's remnants and he ordered the Stormfather to bond people and show the visions to. He set it up so a member of the radiant order that specializes in creating new bonds between separate things will be Connected to the pieces of Honor and getting visions that say UNITE THEM over and over. Seems like a plan to restore the shard.  

Tanavast was the vessel for Honor then he died and his cognitive shadow was absorbed by the Stormfather. His CS is Connected to the remnants of Honor because he was its vessel for so long. Because the CS and the Stormfather merged in some way anyone bonded to the Stormfather is connected Honor's remnants. Stormfather didn't get Tanavast's memories or anything, I think Tanavast's CS is within the Stormfather, but still separate enough to send Dalinar "Unite Them" reminders without the Stormfather being aware. WoB support hidden for length:

Golden Light

Rysn experiences a golden light when she becomes the Dawnshard. We also have Dalinar's weird dreams of dead people featuring a golden light. Those being Gavilar as a child laughing in the next room in a dream WoR Ch. 89 and shopping with Nohadon in OB Ch. 103

My guess is they are a result of Dalnar's Connection to Honor's remnants. The golden light is either Honor's power or the spiritual realm (which Dalinar is able to get closer to due to his Connection to Honor). It feels different from the scorching, painful golden light Rysn experienced, but a warm familiar one. The second time Dalinar found it blinding, but still didn't find it painful. Granted it could be that each Dawnshard feels different. 

The perpendicularity Dalinar summons is golden, same color as the gloryspren swirling around him. Odium's power is white-gold when seen in the realm world and in the vision in OB Ch. 1. A lot of golden power in these books, not all Dawnshards. 

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I think it is pretty clear that there were at least two Dawnshards in the system as at one point Honour said “without the dawnshardS”

I seems like Nohadon likely held it at one point as his cognitive aspect seems to not fully be dead. Then we know Meleeshi used a Dawnshard to BIND which does not seem in-line with CHANGE. 

It seems Honour thought BIND/UNITE to be lost, but that Honour was not 100% correct and that Dalinar is being fed the Dawnshard through the Way of Kings; remember him seeing words that glow with warmth and Jasnah dictated the book at the day of Gavilars funeral? Somehow a Dawnshard thought “dead” is being revived and Dalinar is assesinding to it. 

Edited by teknopathetic
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31 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

I think it is pretty clear that there were at least two Dawnshards in the system as at one point Honour said “without the dawnshardS”

I seems like Nohadon likely held it at one point as his cognitive aspect seems to not fully be dead. Then we know Meleeshi used a Dawnshard to BIND which does not seem in-line with CHANGE. 

It seems Honour thought BIND/UNITE to be lost, but that Honour was not 100% correct and that Dalinar is being fed the Dawnshard through the Way of Kings; remember him seeing words that glow with warmth and Jasnah dictated the book at the day of Gavilars funeral? Somehow a Dawnshard thought “dead” is being revived and Dalinar is assesinding to it. 

Good catch on the book.

Yeah, I get there's more than one. Yet, again why did Tanavast build his entire plan around the the person getting the Visions having access to BIND/UNITE Dawnshard if, as you say, he thought that particular Dawnshard wasn't going to be available? 

Yes reading the book did something for him, but he was getting the Visions shortly after. He wakes up in a the storm wagon fighting something and thinks how weird what he just experienced was in OB Ch. 114.  The glow could have been the stormfather choosing him because he was reading the book . Tanavast says to "read the book" in the visions. If Dalinar also got the Dawnshard from reading the book, which seemed to play a part in the Stormfather bonding him at around same time, then they all are wrapped up in the same action  Yet Honor didn't think they would be. 

All four Dawnshards are a Command, like what Awakeners on Nalthis use, the place where invested people see enhanced colors. Why has Dalinar never commented on seeing really vibrant colors like Rysn does? 

Rysn got an impression of emotions that seem to have belonged to Adonalsium, had a dialogue in her head with the Dawnshard and got an intense rush of power, why didn't he experience any of that? He sees a soft glow and then he's bonding the Stormfather and getting visions by the time her arrives at the valley. 

Edited by Child of Hodor
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I think Dalinar getting to bond the stormfather is completely separate from him getting “something” from the way of kings since the stormfather knows nothing about the other voice/vision Dalinar gets sometimes. 
 

Rysn seems to have gotten the command all at once, while Dalinar seems to be getting his more through bits and pieces (likely related to the fact that Odium thought that this command was “killed”) 

Edited by teknopathetic
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I had that thought just a minute ago. I feel like Change and Unity would be pretty good Dawnshard candidates (from the little we know so far), but I’m not sure when/how Dalinar would have picked his up. 
 

Granted, I’m not totally sure how Rysn became one either, and it was shown from her point of view.

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1 minute ago, Nebelskind said:

I had that thought just a minute ago. I feel like Change and Unity would be pretty good Dawnshard candidates (from the little we know so far), but I’m not sure when/how Dalinar would have picked his up. 
 

Granted, I’m not totally sure how Rysn became one either, and it was shown from her point of view.

It has to be a command though, so something like Unite or Bind. 

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@Child of Hodor You raise some really good points!

1 hour ago, Child of Hodor said:

It's hard for me to square Tanavast/Honor saying "Unite Them" in just about every Vision he created and then saying the Dawnshards won't be available to the radiants in the modern conflict in those same Visions if "Unite Them" hinges on the vision recepient being the Untiy Dawnshard. Seems unproductive. 

"Drive the car!"  ... "I sold the car, sorry!" 

This is an especially good point. You're right that it would be pretty odd of Tanavast to rant about humanity not having the Dawnshards if he needed the recipient to have the Unity Dawnshard though I think the two are unrelated. Perhaps the "Unite them" cropping up in the visions was a sort of interference from the Dawnshards where the Command is coming through? I admit that this a shaky argument and your criticism is valid. This is a point I will have to look more into to try and figure out a better reason for why the "Unite them" comes from Honor's visions if Honor didn't think it would be an available Dawnshard.

39 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

All four Dawnshards are a Command, like what Awakeners on Nalthis use, the place where invested people see enhanced colors. Why has Dalinar never commented on seeing really vibrant colors like Rysn does? 

As for this point, I'm with @teknopathetic in believing that this particular Dawnshard is broken somehow. It would make sense to me that Honor thought the Dawnshard's would be unavailable for human kind if he thought they were broken somehow. A lot of people believe that Dalinar is reforging the Shard of Honor, but what if, instead, he's reforging the Dawnshard Unity? Perhaps he'll have a more gradual change instead getting what seems like the equivalent of the Fifth Heightening (or more) that Rysn experiences.

@teknopathetic You have some really interesting points that I hadn't even considered!

1 hour ago, teknopathetic said:

I seems like Nohadon likely held it at one point as his cognitive aspect seems to not fully be dead. Then we know Meleeshi used a Dawnshard to BIND which does not seem in-line with CHANGE. 

That's a really interesting take and might explain that one odd vision Dalinar has of Nohadon's grocery shopping adventure. Maybe if Dalinar is holding a Dawnshard Nohadon had previously held, there is some Connection between them now? 

1 hour ago, teknopathetic said:

It seems Honour thought BIND/UNITE to be lost, but that Honour was not 100% correct and that Dalinar is being fed the Dawnshard through the Way of Kings; remember him seeing words that glow with warmth and Jasnah dictated the book at the day of Gavilars funeral? Somehow a Dawnshard thought “dead” is being revived and Dalinar is assesinding to it. 

I had completely forgotten about the glowing words with the first reading! I think they also feel much better after reading it. While I had initially chalked that up to a normal cathartic effect in troubled times, I want to go through that section again to see if there may have been some more magical undertones to it.

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20 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

It has to be a command though, so something like Unite or Bind. 

You’re right, that makes sense. I guess “change” works both as a command and an identity, so I wasn’t thinking of that. 

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14 minutes ago, Nightweaver said:

 

@teknopathetic You have some really interesting points that I hadn't even considered!

That's a really interesting take and might explain that one odd vision Dalinar has of Nohadon's grocery shopping adventure. Maybe if Dalinar is holding a Dawnshard Nohadon had previously held, there is some Connection between them now? 

I had completely forgotten about the glowing words with the first reading! I think they also feel much better after reading it. While I had initially chalked that up to a normal cathartic effect in troubled times, I want to go through that section again to see if there may have been some more magical undertones to it.

I’ve always wanted people to pay more attention to the glowing gold words in that Jasnah/Dalinar scene but no one has ever felt as strongly as I did! I feel so vindicated! 
 

I’m not entirely sure  if it fits, but Dalinar says he felt something similar as a child when he was playing with Gavilar in his bedroom. I’ve always wondered what thats about too...

Edited by teknopathetic
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2 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

 

It seems Honour thought BIND/UNITE to be lost, but that Honour was not 100% correct and that Dalinar is being fed the Dawnshard through the Way of Kings; remember him seeing words that glow with warmth and Jasnah dictated the book at the day of Gavilars funeral? Somehow a Dawnshard thought “dead” is being revived and Dalinar is assesinding to it. 

I had the same thought. I wonder if Dawnshard Commands can be embedded in a variety of objects, such as the mural. If a picture,  why not words? Or a song for that matter?

But if that's the case....why Dalinar? Or Rysn for that matter?  Were they chosen? Does a Dawnshard join with just anybody or does it require a Connection element? 

Both Rysn and Dalinar were also in the process of reinventing and changing themselves.  There may be something to that as well.

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2 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

Then we know Meleeshi used a Dawnshard to BIND which does not seem in-line with CHANGE. 

The word "bind" is strange on Roshar, as exemplified by the term "surgebinding".  When Kaladin "binds" the Surge (force) of Gravitation, he causes gravity to change.  When Shallan or Jasnah binds the soulcasting Surge, they are definitely changing things.  All of the Surges are forces of change in one way or another.  It doesn't seem that "binding" means "tie up" or "restrict" or "join together," but rather "direct:" to bind it to their will and cause it to make the specific change that they want to have happen.

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Something to add to this theory: when the Sleepless were talking, they mentioned that Dalinar going down the path of Honor (assuming that means his swearing his Third Ideal) makes him more dangerous, not less.

If Dalinar is reforging/attuning the Unite Dawnshard, I doubt he could continue as the champion of Odium... but if he’s still a Bondsmith and a more powerful one at that, it’s much more likely he could access the Dawnshard (perhaps his 5th Ideal).

I don’t know how likely it is considering how terrified the immortal Sleepless were of letting their Dawnshard out, but it’s more evidence.

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3 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

Something to add to this theory: when the Sleepless were talking, they mentioned that Dalinar going down the path of Honor (assuming that means his swearing his Third Ideal) makes him more dangerous, not less.

If Dalinar is reforging/attuning the Unite Dawnshard, I doubt he could continue as the champion of Odium... but if he’s still a Bondsmith and a more powerful one at that, it’s much more likely he could access the Dawnshard (perhaps his 5th Ideal).

I don’t know how likely it is considering how terrified the immortal Sleepless were of letting their Dawnshard out, but it’s more evidence.

Well the Sleepless forbade Rysn from making a spren bond, so Dalinar being an Bondsmith and a Command-Holder might be their worst-case scenario. Though it is possible that Bind is less destructive than Change, and that Change is the one they are most worried about. 
 

 

Edited by teknopathetic
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I think Honor was bound to UNITE after Melishi imprisoned Ba-Ado-Mishram, presumably died or broke his oaths, and the Recreance happened. The tower vision is arguably the last vision to be recorded. Honor thought that UNITE might be rendered inaccessible by his death. UNITE instead was only broken with the pieces attached to the visions, Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow within the Stormfather, maybe Nohadon's CS but he's a weird one, and perhaps to things with strong Connections to UNITE which I shall call relics (if Nohadon held UNITE and then write The Way of Kings, the book might develop a strong Connection to UNITE).

According to my theory, as a Bondsmith candidate receives more visions and becomes familiar with the relics, they bond UNITE one piece at a time. When a candidate dies before fully bonding UNITE, the pieces fell apart back to their respective visions and relics. When a Bondsmith candidate finally bonded the Stormfather, they can gain access to Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow's piece. When they reach the Fifth Ideal where they become one with the Stormfather, they fully bond with UNITE,

So, Dalinar has a significant portion of UNITE, enabling him to open Honor's Perpendicularity, but he's not fully the holder of UNITE until he reaches the Fifth Ideal.

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34 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Well the Sleepless forbade Rysn from making a spren bond, so Dalinar being an Bondsmith and a Command-Holder might be their worst-case scenario. Though it is possible that Bind is less destructive than Change, and that Change is the one they are most worried about. 

That’s what I’m thinking as well; it’s a massive amount of power, but it feels like... something Bondsmiths were made for.

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1 hour ago, Hessi's Ward said:

if Nohadon held UNITE and then write The Way of Kings, the book might develop a strong Connection to UNITE

I like this. So, Gavilar telling Dalinar to find the words was really to lead him to the Dawnshard in their copy of tWoK.

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4 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

I’ve always wanted people to pay more attention to the glowing gold words in that Jasnah/Dalinar scene but no one has ever felt as strongly as I did! I feel so vindicated! 

This was a great find actually, looking at the book with the idea of it being a Dawnshard has helped me come up with some interesting ideas! 

50 minutes ago, scottwo said:

I like this. So, Gavilar telling Dalinar to find the words was really to lead him to the Dawnshard in their copy of tWoK.

I believe so.

And if we keep going with this line of thought, Dalinar striding into battle with nothing but his book in the battle at the end of Oathbringer looks a lot different! If the book holds a Dawnshard in some way then maybe Dalinar wasn’t unarmed after all. I think it might actually be quite significant that he has the book during his “I am Unity” moment. 
 

@Hessi's Ward I found all your thoughts very interesting. Do you have any ideas on what these other relics could be? 

Edited by Nightweaver
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Ooh, I like the Dawnshard in tWoK theory. We don't have enough information on how a Dawnshard is stored to draw perfect conclusions, but is it possible that the Dawnshard is in the Way of Kings in general rather than that specific copy? We know that the Knights Radiant, the unified order of Surgebinders, were founded based on the book's ideals. We also know that Nohadon never originally planned on writing the Way of Kings. What if Nohadon somehow became a Dawnshard, and it influenced him to write the book and then transfer the Dawnshard to it, as a way of preserving the unity of the Knights Radiant? 

Of course, Honor did seem to imply that the Dawnshards were lost when he spoke to Dalinar. Could this be just referring to the fact that the Way of Kings is no longer widely read? Or maybe the loss of the Dawnshard had something to do with the Day of Recreance.

I realize that this theory is a stretch, but it would be cool if it were true.

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If Dalinar and Gavilar were both the Unite Dawnshard and they became that by reading the book and they read the book because Honor’s visions said to read the book (at least that’s probably why Gavilar did it).

Then Honor’s fingerprints are all over this Dawnshard. This Dawnshard who he is technically directly telling isn’t available. When Dalinar hears Honor tell him “without the Dawnshards” honor is saying “without the Dawnshards” to a Dawnshard. :blink:
 

The only way I can make this work is if Honor tied the Dawnshard, his Remnants, the Stormfather and that storming book together as a contingency for his death and whatever he had to do to tie it all together made the Dawnshard not useable.

He is keeping it out of Odium’s hands but now no one can use it like it once was used. 

I don’t think it’s “dead”. Nikli says none of them are alive including the Rysn has. The UNITE one may be altered to the point where it can’t be used though. 

Edited by Child of Hodor
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So in searching for golden imagery, I'll add the scene from Dalinar's weirdest/most interesting vision in Oathbringer:

Quote

In front of him, the merchant set weights on one side of his large set of scales -- representing the amount Nohadon had purchased -- then started pouring grain into a bowl on the other side of the scale. Golden, captivating grain, like the light of captured flames.

I always felt there was some super deep parable going on here. I guess it's symbolic about the cost of having principles, since that's what they are arguing about and are having trouble getting the grain to balance.

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Maybe, Nohadon had the Unity dawnshard. Then, when Nohadon died, Honor and Odium both thought the dawnshard was “shattered”, or something. However, the dawnshard is still attached to Nohadon’s CS. Or maybe it’s attached to the entire cognitive perception of the Way of Kings book.

If there is a Unity dawnshard, I think Honor thought it was inaccessible somehow. But, he was wrong. I like that the sleepless are scared of Dalinar because he is a radiant with a dawnshard.

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I think you folk are going down the wrong path. 

I believe the painting that Rsyn saw showcases the shattering of Adnolsieum. There are 4 "shards" that initially break and them 4 more from that. I believe the first 4 shards are dawnshards.  

 

In the OG vision Tanavast mentions how rare dawnshards are and difficult to find. I dont see him telling a "dawnshard" that they are hard to find. He would've said something like...the power is deep inside you if you have the will to find it

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8 minutes ago, FidesFortuna said:

I think you folk are going down the wrong path. 

I believe the painting that Rsyn saw showcases the shattering of Adnolsieum. There are 4 "shards" that initially break and them 4 more from that. I believe the first 4 shards are dawnshards.  

 

In the OG vision Tanavast mentions how rare dawnshards are and difficult to find. I dont see him telling a "dawnshard" that they are hard to find. He would've said something like...the power is deep inside you if you have the will to find it

The Dawnshards predate the Shattering - Nikli said they helped cause the Shattering. So while some Shards may be attuned to Dawnshards, the Dawnshards “started it”.

Also... I’m not sure if Honor knew where the Dawnshards were. The fact that Odium hasn’t layed waste to Aimia to try and get it means it probably can’t be sensed easily, so it’s possible that something happened to a Unite Dawnshard that made Honor lose track of it.

It’s also possible that you can’t just tell if someone’s a Dawnshard or not.

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33 minutes ago, FidesFortuna said:

In the OG vision Tanavast mentions how rare dawnshards are and difficult to find. I dont see him telling a "dawnshard" that they are hard to find. He would've said something like...the power is deep inside you if you have the will to find it

I believe Honor used the UNITE Dawnshard in his last fight against Odium and he's not sure whether UNITE would still be accessible when he records the vision. He couldn't have known the Bondsmith candidate is bonding UNITE one piece at a time and so he was also telling them to look for other Dawnshard which he knows are rare and hard to find.

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