Child of Hodor

How Did It Get Here And Other Questions

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The Dawnshard was used to kill Adonalsium and it was (and perhaps others) were used on Ashyn per the Stormfather in OB Ch. 38. 

The Vessels presumably still had them after they were used in the Shattering. Did Cultivation bring it with her and then deposited it on Ashyn? 

Or did the Vessels all give them up? If I was a Shard I wouldn’t want another Shard to still have one. 

If Cultivation didn’t bring the Change Dawnshard how did it get to the system?

If there are only 4 why were 16 people involved in the Shattering? What did the other 12 do while 4 people became one with their Dawnshard? Provide moral support?

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Seems like this one arrived after Horneaters settled in the peaks. This would mean after the original human colonization of Roshar, I believe.

Quote

“So you do know,” Nikli said to her.
“There are songs . . .” Cord said. “From long ago. Of when this . . . Command came through the pool.” She whispered again in her tongue, and it sounded like a prayer.”

I'm thinking maybe it came with the Iri on the Long Trail?

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8 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

Seems like this one arrived after Horneaters settled in the peaks. This would mean after the original human colonization of Roshar, I believe.

I'm thinking maybe it came with the Iri on the Long Trail?

Thanks I already forgot that she said that. The Iriali are a likely suspect. Sleepless are not from Roshar is confirmed now, but they took over the duties by necessity. 

Then again even before the Sleepless took over guarding it, it was in Aimia. The other paintings in the chamber showed humans in front of portals though and Sleepless don’t prefer that form. 

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1 hour ago, Child of Hodor said:

The Dawnshard was used to kill Adonalsium and it was (and perhaps others) were used on Ashyn per the Stormfather in OB Ch. 38. 

The Vessels presumably still had them after they were used in the Shattering. Did Cultivation bring it with her and then deposited it on Ashyn? 

Or did the Vessels all give them up? If I was a Shard I wouldn’t want another Shard to still have one. 

If Cultivation didn’t bring the Change Dawnshard how did it get to the system?

If there are only 4 why were 16 people involved in the Shattering? What did the other 12 do while 4 people became one with their Dawnshard? Provide moral support?

The Sleepless said only a god could properly wield it, but maybe 4 people could sort of combine to wield one of them. 

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28 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

The Sleepless said only a god could properly wield it

They do?!

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7 hours ago, Eternal Khol said:

They do?!

" To make such Commands, one must have the reasoning—the breadth of understanding—of a deity "

Yes, it seems to me that to fully use a Dawnshard or a Command, one must be a Vessel. Or something along that line.

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7 minutes ago, vhaloth said:

" To make such Commands, one must have the reasoning—the breadth of understanding—of a deity "

Yes, it seems to me that to fully use a Dawnshard or a Command, one must be a Vessel. Or something along that line.

And that is probably why they said she can’t bond a Spren. It would give her part of a “deity” and alllw her access to the power. Or at least that is how I took it.

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57 minutes ago, paperstones said:

And that is probably why they said she can’t bond a Spren. It would give her part of a “deity” and alllw her access to the power. Or at least that is how I took it.

Yes, that's right, I'm looking it the same way, possibly this could also what destroyed Ashyn in the first place. Uncontrolled god power.

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2 hours ago, paperstones said:

And that is probably why they said she can’t bond a Spren. It would give her part of a “deity” and alllw her access to the power. Or at least that is how I took it.

I thought they made that stipulation because they felt they may need to move her off world to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands. Though your reason also makes sense, could be a combination of the two. 

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6 hours ago, vhaloth said:

" To make such Commands, one must have the reasoning—the breadth of understanding—of a deity "

Yes, it seems to me that to fully use a Dawnshard or a Command, one must be a Vessel. Or something along that line.

I didn't interpret this as the requirement for using a Dawnshard, but rather an explanation of how the Dawnshards were created. "To make such Commands", it says. Plus, Nikli seemed to be describing the nature of a Dawnshard, not the way that you would use one. The full passage is spoilered below.

Spoiler

"The most powerful forms of Surgebinding transcend traditional mortal understanding," Nikli said. His body began to re-form, hordelings crawling back into place. "All their greatest applications require Intent and a Command. Demands on a level no person could ever manage alone. To make such Commands, one must have the reasoning-the breadth of understanding-of a deity. And so, the Dawnshards. The four primal Commands that created all things."

 

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1 hour ago, Rushu42 said:

I didn't interpret this as the requirement for using a Dawnshard, but rather an explanation of how the Dawnshards were created. "To make such Commands", it says. Plus, Nikli seemed to be describing the nature of a Dawnshard, not the way that you would use one. The full passage is spoilered below.

  Hide contents

"The most powerful forms of Surgebinding transcend traditional mortal understanding," Nikli said. His body began to re-form, hordelings crawling back into place. "All their greatest applications require Intent and a Command. Demands on a level no person could ever manage alone. To make such Commands, one must have the reasoning-the breadth of understanding-of a deity. And so, the Dawnshards. The four primal Commands that created all things."

 

This was my take away too. Only a Diety could create something like a Dawnshard.

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Rysn's experiences at the end sound very much like she has reached at least the third heightening... This made me wonder if Vasher brought it from Nalthis. I can't remember the timeline of when we think he came, though. This also made me wonder... Could Hoid be a dawnshard instead of simply holding breath? Is that why the 17th Shard is after him and why Odium would destroy him? Too much for my brain!!! 

@Chaos and all you other Shardcasters, I can't wait for your Shardcast episode on this!!!!!

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Interesting! I took away something totally different; basically, that to use the surges to their full potential, you needed to Command them with the "breadth and understanding- of a deity." In order to grant that level of breadth and understanding, to a level where surgebinding could be Commanded and used to its fullest potential, the Dawnshards were created. Hence forbidding Rysn from ever bonding a spren. Because if she gets access to surges (maybe through an honorblade, Chekhov's gun anyone?), she'll have nearly unlimited potential with the surges. Maybe its possible through some combination/hack of surgebinding and breaths? 

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8 hours ago, Brightness Jencee said:

Rysn's experiences at the end sound very much like she has reached at least the third heightening... This made me wonder if Vasher brought it from Nalthis. I can't remember the timeline of when we think he came, though. This also made me wonder... Could Hoid be a dawnshard instead of simply holding breath? Is that why the 17th Shard is after him and why Odium would destroy him? Too much for my brain!!! 

@Chaos and all you other Shardcasters, I can't wait for your Shardcast episode on this!!!!!

We're recording Sunday, then it'll be a mad dash for me to edit the podcast! I'll get them out ASAP! It's very exciting!

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7 hours ago, Chaos said:

We're recording Sunday, then it'll be a mad dash for me to edit the podcast! I'll get them out ASAP! It's very exciting!

Yay! Much appreciated, and cannot wait!

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On 11/6/2020 at 1:44 AM, Child of Hodor said:

If there are only 4 why were 16 people involved in the Shattering? What did the other 12 do while 4 people became one with their Dawnshard? Provide moral support?

Quote

“The most powerful forms of Surgebinding transcend traditional mortal understanding,” Nikli said. His body began to re-form, hordelings crawling back into place. “All their greatest applications require Intent and a Command. Demands on a level no person could ever manage alone. To make such Commands, one must have the reasoning—the breadth of understanding—of a deity. And so, the Dawnshards. The four primal Commands that created all things.” He paused. “And then eventually, they were used to undo Adonalsium itself. . . .”

Emphasis added.  It seems that it takes the combination of a Command and an Intent to wield the power of Creation (and likewise the power of Destruction, judging by what happened to Adonalsim).  But this combined power is too much for a single person to handle alone.  Adonalsim likely was able to wield this power on its own because it is a deity, a force, a God that "transcends traditional mortal understanding."

The people who Shattered Adonalsium were not deities.  They were just people.  Dragons, humans, mortal or "immortal" (though they all can die), they were just people.  And therefore they must have had to work in groups.  My theory is that it must have required at least four people, all with similar Intents, to wield a single Command.  And thus, four groups of four, 16 Intents, 16 vessels, 16 Shards.

Edited by Kinolee
pronouns
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18 hours ago, Rushu42 said:

I didn't interpret this as the requirement for using a Dawnshard, but rather an explanation of how the Dawnshards were created. "To make such Commands", it says. Plus, Nikli seemed to be describing the nature of a Dawnshard, not the way that you would use one. The full passage is spoilered below.

  Hide contents

"The most powerful forms of Surgebinding transcend traditional mortal understanding," Nikli said. His body began to re-form, hordelings crawling back into place. "All their greatest applications require Intent and a Command. Demands on a level no person could ever manage alone. To make such Commands, one must have the reasoning-the breadth of understanding-of a deity. And so, the Dawnshards. The four primal Commands that created all things."

 

Can it be, that there is a typo in the paragraph? To "make a command" sounds unusual to my (german) ears. Would not "make a demand" suit better? Iff so, then the passage in my view totally supports the notion that the Dawnshards can only be correctly used by "deities".

Follow me through this:

  1. a Dawnshard is the Command
  2. to "use a Dawnshard" means to "give the Command"
  3. to "make a Demand" means to additionally have an Intention behind the Command
  4. the most powerful form of Surgebinding, the presumably "right way to use a Dawnshard" is to "make a Demand"

From this it would follow that only deities can use a Dawnshard "in the right way".

This of course would not exclude the possibility that the Dawnshard can be used for other purposes by non-deities.

 

Disclaimer: Dont put me on the stake for randomly capitalizing words loosely connected to the Cosmere ... *blush*

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On 11/6/2020 at 8:39 AM, vhaloth said:

" To make such Commands, one must have the reasoning—the breadth of understanding—of a deity "

Yes, it seems to me that to fully use a Dawnshard or a Command, one must be a Vessel. Or something along that line.

This expansion of understanding sounds similar to how Brandon has described Slivers.  So it wouldn't necessarily need to be a current holder of a shard, but also could be someone who previously wielded the power of one.  Someone who is very good at surviving for example.

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7 hours ago, Michael Portz said:

Can it be, that there is a typo in the paragraph? To "make a command" sounds unusual to my (german) ears. Would not "make a demand" suit better? Iff so, then the passage in my view totally supports the notion that the Dawnshards can only be correctly used by "deities".

Follow me through this:

  1. a Dawnshard is the Command
  2. to "use a Dawnshard" means to "give the Command"
  3. to "make a Demand" means to additionally have an Intention behind the Command
  4. the most powerful form of Surgebinding, the presumably "right way to use a Dawnshard" is to "make a Demand"

From this it would follow that only deities can use a Dawnshard "in the right way".

This of course would not exclude the possibility that the Dawnshard can be used for other purposes by non-deities.

 

Disclaimer: Dont put me on the stake for randomly capitalizing words loosely connected to the Cosmere ... *blush*

I think it's what Rushu42 (the in-thread Rushu, not the in-book one) was saying earlier - that "To make a Command" refers to the actual creation of the Dawnshards, not their use.

Or, probably more accurately, that level of "Command" can only be achieved by a diety who understands how their Intent shapes their Investiture, but the Dawnshards achieve that Command for them - letting Investiture be shaped into Intent perfectly by anyone without needing a diety's mind, so long as it relates to "change" or whatever the Command is.

... the question is, does "diety" include Shards? Or just Aldonalsium? Because if it's the former, a Dawnshard would do little for a Shard. The latter... has cataclysmic possibilites.

 

It really depends on what the cosmere definition of "Command" is, because it sounds remarkably similar to Intent... but they're clearly supposed to be different things. Maybe it means Intent is what you want to do, and Command is how that's relayed to the Investiture? And so a Dawnshard is like a perfect communicator to the Investiture to do exactly what you want to do... instead of a purposeful command like "Fetch Keys", the Command can simply be "Change" and with a word the world is set aflame...

It feels like it's the Investiture equivalent of a perfect human-to-Assembly Code translator.

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7 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

It really depends on what the cosmere definition of "Command" is, because it sounds remarkably similar to Intent... but they're clearly supposed to be different things. Maybe it means Intent is what you want to do, and Command is how that's relayed to the Investiture?

Warbreaker talks about the distinctions! To awaken something you need to have the Intent: visualize what you want to happen. Then you give the Command: a word or phrase, clearly said aloud. And then you supply Investiture: enough Breaths to do the awakening.

That's Nalthian magic. But based on Dawnshard, I think I can try to extrapolate that to general principles of the Cosmere - to do magic things, you need Intent (a mind visualizing/intending what you need to do - the cognitive component), a Command (some physical interaction - a phrase like in awakening, a gesture like in Elantris) and Investiture (from the Spiritual realm - supplied differently in each magic system.)

The combination of Intent and Investiture is clearly common to all magic systems. The Command part... is a stretch. Not sure how I'd apply that framework to Surgebinding on Roshar, Feruchemy/Allomancy on Scadrial (though maybe the interaction with the metal counts as the physical component there?). But it fits for Awakening and all the Selish magics pretty well. Radiants tend to do some gesturing with their hands as they do various things, but it's never been made explicit that they have to do these things.

The Dawnshard is, apparently, the Command portion of this, on Adonalsium-scale. Somehow saved into a thought that could be passed on, from person to mural to person. Really not sure how that works.

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1 hour ago, ftl said:

Warbreaker talks about the distinctions! To awaken something you need to have the Intent: visualize what you want to happen. Then you give the Command: a word or phrase, clearly said aloud. And then you supply Investiture: enough Breaths to do the awakening.

That's Nalthian magic. But based on Dawnshard, I think I can try to extrapolate that to general principles of the Cosmere - to do magic things, you need Intent (a mind visualizing/intending what you need to do - the cognitive component), a Command (some physical interaction - a phrase like in awakening, a gesture like in Elantris) and Investiture (from the Spiritual realm - supplied differently in each magic system.)

The combination of Intent and Investiture is clearly common to all magic systems. The Command part... is a stretch. Not sure how I'd apply that framework to Surgebinding on Roshar, Feruchemy/Allomancy on Scadrial (though maybe the interaction with the metal counts as the physical component there?). But it fits for Awakening and all the Selish magics pretty well. Radiants tend to do some gesturing with their hands as they do various things, but it's never been made explicit that they have to do these things.

The Dawnshard is, apparently, the Command portion of this, on Adonalsium-scale. Somehow saved into a thought that could be passed on, from person to mural to person. Really not sure how that works.

My guess is that the Command bridges the Intent-to-Investiture gap, sort of translating the Intent so that the Investiture can do what it’s supposed to - or what it thinks its supposed to. Kinda like coding: Intent is what you want to do, but Command is what you actually write as code. (As for Rosharian/Scadrian Commands... the bonds/metals act like a template to access Surgebinding/Allomancy, so perhaps those qualify as Commands as well? Maybe?)

As for what that says about the Dawnshard... perhaps it’s a perfect translator to “change”, allowing your Intent to perfectly affect Investiture to change what you want (or whatever command the Dawnshard uses). Or maybe just a way to hack the magic system to use Investiture to Change without being “perfect”. Who knows.

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with the idea that Hoid was a Dawnshard in the past and assuming he was for the Shattering, that means at least 17 people were present or party to it in some way.  So I'm wondering if it took more than 4 to 'power' a Dawnshard, if you will?

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17 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

what you want to do... instead of a purposeful command like "Fetch Keys", the Command can simply be "Change" and with a word the world is set aflame...

 

Thats how ive been imagining them.

i feel like the commands are literally capable of just doing almost anything, with less thought than a Shard and less restraint. With the Dawnshards, You’re not bound by the rules of Ado or investiture the way a Shard is(the only “rules” are the rules of the magic systems that you use in conjunction with the Dawnshards). I feel like someone holding a Dawnshard should be capable of things no shard could ever do, simply because holding a Dawnshard doesnt bind you in the way a Shard does.

conversely, i dont want to think about what would happen if a Vessel/Shard became a Dawnshard too(if possible)

Edited by Eternal Khol
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On 2020-11-06 at 3:37 PM, Truthless of Shinovar said:

Interesting! I took away something totally different; basically, that to use the surges to their full potential, you needed to Command them with the "breadth and understanding- of a deity." In order to grant that level of breadth and understanding, to a level where surgebinding could be Commanded and used to its fullest potential, the Dawnshards were created. Hence forbidding Rysn from ever bonding a spren. Because if she gets access to surges (maybe through an honorblade, Chekhov's gun anyone?), she'll have nearly unlimited potential with the surges. Maybe its possible through some combination/hack of surgebinding and breaths? 

I agree. Regular (small c) commands in Awakening require visualization, and these capital-c Commands might require more visualization that a regular human could pull-off. 

Makes you wonder if someone as practiced as Vasher might be able to pull it off though, or if Divine breath is enough to do it either. We know Nightblood was made in a weird way, so I wonder if a big-c Command was use in the process. 

Edited by teknopathetic
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