Karger

What we learned

100 posts in this topic

7 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

Dalinar had also seen words that glow and give off light. Is Unite one of the Dawnshards (maybe a splintered one Odium thought he destroyed or Unmade?) 

This would make the “we killed you!” line make a lot more sense to me. Adonalsium is dead, but Odium sees its/his Command being expressed in Dalinar. 
 

of course, I feel like Odium should have known about Dawnshards, but I still like the idea

5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We also learned that Jasnah (and I think it implied all Elsecallers?) can see through illusions.  Lopen mentions it when trying to figure out if a Lightweaver is on board. 

5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My guess is that has to do with being able to look at them from Shadesmar and see their Cognitive aspect as different.

10

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Innovation said:

This is somewhat unrelated to Dawnshards, but the Sleepless seem convinced that the Radients will destroy them, especially Dalinar who has made the choice of honor (probably his 3rd oath). Arclo is a rouge Sleepless as the Sleepless council mentioned. As for this Sleepless council, they seem to give authority to age. A Sleepless’s age goes back to time their swarm was “Separated.” Could this be the result of a Dawnshard dividing them? One of the Sleepless mentions that “you were not yet Separated during the scouring.” So he was partially separated, as the Sleepless said “not yet.” (Maybe I’m reading too much into that “yet”). Nikli also notes that “When the swarm that had become Nikli had been Separated...” So all Sleepless go through a kind of Proto-Sleepless phase where they are a swarm but not yet Separated. The oldest Sleepless seem to have authority, but Nikli mentioned that the oldest is the “oldest of the swarms on Roshar.” On Roshar. There might be older swarms out there, especially considering that the Sleepless aren’t native to Roshar. Only twenty Sleepless accept the rule of the first swarm. Why not all?

I read this as a form of asexual reproduction. They grow hordlings with the intent of separating them off into their own person. It is possible that I read this wrong and you are correct that it is something greater. So many questions.

 

9 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

I wonder if Rysn now had some passive benefits of 4 shard investiture? She notices Endiwnment, but I wonder what else might be in there (or maybe all 4 shards in that team can grant that somehow). 
 

I am thinking the team is based in the “Accept it  Know it  CHANGE”, so

Endowment - change through gift

Cultivation - change through grown 

Ambition - change through will

Maybe Ruin? - Change through time? 
 

Dalinar had also seen words that glow and give off light. Is Unite one of the Dawnshards (maybe a splintered one Odium thought he destroyed or Unmade?) 

Honour

Dominion

Devotion

Preservation? 

 

What would it mean if 3 of those four groupings are shattered? Could Dalinar, if he derives(originates? Develops? Obtains? Hard to pick a verb here) a dawnshard could he possibly take up those "free" shards? That would make him immensely powerful. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Karger said:

OK so tidbits I picked up so far. 

  • Huio is a genius and he invented the aluminum method that the Azish take credit for.  It seems that it works by making it so that only some motions matter circular motion = back and forth as only lateral movement matters.  I am really interested for Rysn to star Prof Xing around on a floating chair.
  • Eight soulcasters were found on Aimia.

What else have we learned?

  • I'm wondering if the smoke Soulcaster that was left there in OB was part of the 8 or if that's still hanging around the island somewhere else. 
  • I was also getting X-Men the Animated Series vibe with the hovering wheelchair the entire book. 
  • Rock was able to use the mandras to draw the Shardbow in OB, that's how he pulls off his occasional feats of strength. 
2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

1: Not only are Sleepless not native to Roshar, there’s only 24 present on Roshar total. And they can mimic larkin leeching, and apparently have a... lot more hordelings than I thought they did.

2: On Hoid:

  Reveal hidden contents

It’s confirmed on Reddit that Hoid is a former Dawnshard, which results in his pacifism. Could still have / have access to Dawnshard #2.


I didn’t even catch the grouping... but that makes a lot if sense.

I have a theory one of the Dawnshards could be within Scadrial. Leras “buried” something there, and we never got confirmation he was talking about the atium...

My guess is there aren’t four world-ending  Dawnshards all on Roshar, but I have no idea where #4 could be.

Having it be on Scadrial fits well with the ending of BoM, where the "evil Kandra" said that Scadrial had become a liability and was about to be purged of all life.  Well... what do we now know of that's capable of doing such a thing?

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyone’s thoughts on Nightblood being (or heavily being touched by) Command: DESTROY? It seems like it would fit the power level...

 

I also really want to call the Dawnshards Create.exe, Destroy.exe, etc...

Edited by Ashbringer
Bring
14

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just want to thank everyone for helping me with this.  Together we will penetrate the deepest mysteries of Dawnshard and emerge victorious with even more questions!

4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Zelly said:

We also learned that Jasnah (and I think it implied all Elsecallers?) can see through illusions.  Lopen mentions it when trying to figure out if a Lightweaver is on board. 

My guess is because an Elsecaller can glimpse into Shadesmar and see what the person looks like on the other side. You cannot hide your cognitive aspect with Lightweaving (that I know of). 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Karger said:

Dawnshard

  • Aimia's undersea caverns contain a DAWNSHARD that the sleepless are guarding.  There are apparently four and they were used to shatter adonalsium.  Sharders speculate that each made four of the four shads.  Rysn has the one that makes things improve, change, grow and possibly learn(Endowment, Ruin, Cultivation, Wisdom?).  According to Cord it came through Cultivation's perpendicularity.  Hoid was effected by (another?) Dawnshard that turned him vegan under principles similar to savantism.

Also: the Dawnshards, which have been called "weapons" in the text previously and were generally assumed by the fandom to be some sort of heavily Invested objects, are not physical objects at all, but are some sort of incorporeal something that people bond to similar to a spren bond, but unlike spren, Dawnshards are not sapient.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

Anyone’s thoughts on Nightblood being (or heavily being touched by) Command: DESTROY? It seems like it would fit the power level...

 

I also really want to call the Dawnshards Create.exe, Destroy.exe, etc...

Seeing as the Dawnshard appear to have been about creation, destroy is likely part of change.

Hoid probably held the Dawnshard Preservation is associated with. I think this Dawnshard is associated with the Temporal category of the Allomantic quadrants.

Worth noting that the Hybrid category of Feruchemy includes all elements needed for survival (air, nutrition, health, and determination (Ie. the will to live)) though we don’t know if that was intentional, since something got swapped there at some point. (I forgot what.)

Edited by Kingsdaughter613
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also we may have to re-think the quote from the Poem of Ista:

Quote

Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above.

I think this supports the @teknopathetic BIND/UNITE Dawnshard theory.

 

5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My guesses so far is Change, Unite, and the Remain/Preserve. Maybe something like Divide/Destroy - to me change is from one thing to another, not one thing to nothing.

I think since we know that the Dawnshards split Adonalsium, and someone on the Discord pointed out the mural shows the sun break into 4, then 16, that maybe not only do the shards group into 4s, but in each group of 4 there's a secondary command. Like Honor would be Unite>Unite, Odium Divide>Divide, Ruin Change>Divide, Preservation Remain>Remain... the problem is one has to be primary and one has to be secondary or there's overlap. And we'd be guessing at which are which.

Hmm.

  • Honor:              Unite > Unite
  • Endowment:     Unite > Change
  •                          Unite > Divide
  • Autonomy:        Unite > Remain
  • Cultivation:       Change > Change
  • Ruin:                 Change > Divide
  •                          Change > Unite
  •                          Change > Remain
  • Preservation:    Remain > Remain
  • Devotion:          Remain > Unite
  •                          Remain > Change
  • Dominion:         Remain > Divide
  • Odium:             Divide > Divide
  •                          Divide > Unite
  •                          Divide > Remain
  • Ambition:          Divide > Change

And then our Wisdom and Ingenuity shards... somewhere.

Thoughts?

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

 

  • Honor:              Unite > Unite
  • Endowment:     Unite > Change
  •                          Unite > Divide
  • Autonomy:        Unite > Remain
  • Cultivation:       Change > Change
  • Ruin:                 Change > Divide
  •                          Change > Unite
  •                          Change > Remain
  • Preservation:    Remain > Remain
  • Devotion:          Remain > Unite
  •                          Remain > Change
  • Dominion:         Remain > Divide
  • Odium:             Divide > Divide
  •                          Divide > Unite
  •                          Divide > Remain
  • Ambition:          Divide > Change

A very interesting theory. I might make the case that Autonomy belongs in the "divide" section rather than the "unite" section, however.

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Algafix said:

Also we may have to re-think the quote from the Poem of Ista:

I think this supports the @teknopathetic BIND/UNITE Dawnshard theory.

 

Bind/Unite/Connect is absolutely a Dawnshard. It’s like the one thing we knew about them in book 1.  

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Dawnshard appeared to be contained in something referencing the Sixteen Shards around the perimeter.

They pre-dated the Shattering of Adonalsium, and were used to effectuate it...

And where the Sixteen Shards represent divine Intent (literally, WoBs and Arcana entries refer to Shardic Intent), the four Dawnshards instead represent divine Commands. (So that means... The Four "Commands" were external to Adonalsium all along?)

The one came to Roshar via the Horneater Peaks - the one that Rysn has now taken into her - is CHANGE. (Which is different from Ruin's or Cultivation's Intent? Or is there a reason that Command came through Cultivation's Perpendicularity?)

Pretty awesome that Huio turns out to have an extremely erudite vocabulary in his native tongue, he's just bad at learning other languages! Didn't see that one coming! And his Third Ideal basically being something like "I will put my Stormlight-exhausted life on the line to protect Lopen's, even if he was just being a total pain in the shells as usual" was great. As was Lopen's once again being about self-awareness.

Interesting that this Dawnshard appears to have given Rysn some kind of Breath-like Heightening. I don't think it's a facet of "any old Investiture" because we've seen extremely Invested people in other Cosmere works, like Jasnah and co. basically having Max Mortal Stormlight Levels at Thaylen Fields, and they didn't notice anything like deeper color, sound, and taste (or maybe they were too busy fighting to really enjoy something)? That's definitely setting something up.

4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My guess with my current map is that each Shard is attuned to Dawnshards, but four shards are attuned to only ONE Dawnshard instead of two. Cultivation's a good candidate for Change.exe, and Honor would be fully attuned to a hypothetical Unity, Odium to Division/Destroy, Preservation to a hypothetical Remain, etc.

Moving Autonomy, adding "Ingenuity" As Change>Remain.

  • Honor:              Unite > Unite
  • Endowment:     Unite > Change
  •                          Unite > Divide
  •                          Unite > Remain
  • Cultivation:       Change > Change
  • Ruin:                 Change > Divide
  •                          Change > Unite
  • Ingenuity:         Change > Remain
  • Preservation:    Remain > Remain
  • Devotion:          Remain > Unite
  •                          Remain > Change
  • Dominion:         Remain > Divide
  • Odium:             Divide > Divide
  •                          Divide > Unite
  • Autonomy:       Divide > Remain
  • Ambition:          Divide > Change
2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

Exactly what Dawnshards are and how they work is a bit of a mystery. We know from Brandon’s annotation that Hoid was a Dawnshard; I assume this is in reference to the “first gem” and how it became worthless for his wearing it. His Dawnshard was contained in a topaz, and then Hoid absorbed it. There are an awful lot of similarities to Breath and Awakening. It’s called a “Command,” Rysn has improved perception of color and pitch at the end of the novella. But while she absorbs it, we see sensations of light and warmth… almost like the mystery light Dalinar has seen a few times. The pieces are there, but I'm not quite sure how to put them together.

Dalinar immediately came to my mind too. My current working theory is that Unity is a type of Dawnshard that Dalinar seems to be close to accessing or already, subconsciously, possesses.

@teknopathetic So maybe it was originally held by Ishar (who used either that or the Change Dawnshard to set up the Knights Radiant and bind them to the Oaths), then Nohadon, then at some point Melishi, and - if my theory is correct - now Dalinar?

Edited by Use the Falchion
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

Dalinar immediately came to my mind too. My current working theory is that Unity is a type of Dawnshard that Dalinar seems to be close to accessing or already, subconsciously, possesses.

@teknopathetic So maybe it was originally held by Ishar (who used either that or the Change Dawnshard to set up the Knights Radiant and bind them to the Oaths), then Nohadon, then at some point Melishi, and - if my theory is correct - now Dalinar?

The problem with that is, why would there be TWO Dawnshards on Roshar if there are four total in the Cosmere?

Then again, Honor "raved about the Dawnshards" (plural), saying the Radiants would destroy Roshar with them as they had done with Ashyn...

Maybe Roshar had one originally, and Ashyn another and now there are two? (And the one from Ashyn is the one that was brought through the Peaks and was placed, or left, in Akinah?)

And Dalinar has somehow attuned to another Dawnshard that was left where it was last used to turn Natanatan into the Shattered Plains? (The opposite of "UNITE")

But then why would Honor say it'd be the Radiants - not the Heralds, who had abandoned their Oathpact anyway - be the ones to "destroy Roshar with Dawnshards"? Something to do with why the Dysians forbade Rysn from forming a Nahel Bond?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

Dalinar immediately came to my mind too. My current working theory is that Unity is a type of Dawnshard that Dalinar seems to be close to accessing or already, subconsciously, possesses.

@teknopathetic So maybe it was originally held by Ishar (who used either that or the Change Dawnshard to set up the Knights Radiant and bind them to the Oaths), then Nohadon, then at some point Melishi, and - if my theory is correct - now Dalinar?

Honour/Cultivation's Plan -

1. Lie about the Dawnshards being lost (do this near Honour's death/causing his death since it might hurt him).

2.Make sure Odium gets this false intel (perhaps use the visions)

3. Trick Odium into agreeing to a battle of champions,

4. Use the Dawnshards to destroy him or his champion. 

Edited by teknopathetic
3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

My guess with my current map is that each Shard is attuned to Dawnshards, but four shards are attuned to only ONE Dawnshard instead of two. Cultivation's a good candidate for Change.exe, and Honor would be fully attuned to a hypothetical Unity, Odium to Division/Destroy, Preservation to a hypothetical Remain, etc.

Moving Autonomy, adding "Ingenuity" As Change>Remain.

  • Honor:              Unite > Unite
  • Endowment:     Unite > Change
  •                          Unite > Divide
  •                          Unite > Remain
  • Cultivation:       Change > Change
  • Ruin:                 Change > Divide
  •                          Change > Unite
  • Ingenuity:         Change > Remain
  • Preservation:    Remain > Remain
  • Devotion:          Remain > Unite
  •                          Remain > Change
  • Dominion:         Remain > Divide
  • Odium:             Divide > Divide
  •                          Divide > Unite
  • Autonomy:       Divide > Remain
  • Ambition:          Divide > Change

Yes, the "four inset from each of the four" pattern sounded like four Commands (Dawnshards) over-arching four Intents (Shards) was being sketched out.

And the fact that Rysn how exhibits Heightening like benefits (but not healed her legs) I thought suggested some kind of link with Endowment; and of course it fits with having come through Cultivation's Perpendicularity, as well (though that could be coincidence).

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, robardin said:

The problem with that is, why would there be TWO Dawnshards on Roshar if there are four total in the Cosmere?

Then again, Honor "raved about the Dawnshards" (plural), saying the Radiants would destroy Roshar with them as they had done with Ashyn...

Maybe Roshar had one originally, and Ashyn another and now there are two? (And the one from Ashyn is the one that was brought through the Peaks and was placed, or left, in Akinah?)

And Dalinar has somehow attuned to another Dawnshard that was left where it was last used to turn Natanatan into the Shattered Plains? (The opposite of "UNITE")

But then why would Honor say it'd be the Radiants - not the Heralds, who had abandoned their Oathpact anyway - be the ones to "destroy Roshar with Dawnshards"? Something to do with why the Dysians forbade Rysn from forming a Nahel Bond?

Dawn is in so many Rosharan name (Dawnsinger, Dawncity, Dawnchant), so it seems like this planet might just be more connected to them historically for some reason.

Perhaps it is something as simple as the Dawnhards were placed on Roshar before the Shattering by A. and then slowly the Shards returned after the Shattering. 

Edited by teknopathetic
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, robardin said:

And the fact that Rysn how exhibits Heightening like benefits (but not healed her legs) I thought suggested some kind of link with Endowment; and of course it fits with having come through Cultivation's Perpendicularity, as well (though that could be coincidence).

We just got a WoB.  It is not directly related to Endowment.

Quote
[suggestion]

skyeguye

If I could ask a question- from Rysn's observations in the epilogue, it seems like she has alot of the same aspects of a Fifth Heightening/Returned at the least. Is this because her Dawnshard is particularly connected to Endowment or because the effects of a certain level of investment result in similar effects?

Brandon Sanderson

The latter.

Footnote: Source has since been deleted, but a screenshot was obtained. 
Dawnshard Annotations (Nov. 6, 2020)

 

Edited by Karger
3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Karger said:

We just got a WoB.  It is not directly related to Endowment.

Interesting. Because we have seen highly Invested people before, one would think to the level of about the Second Heightening at least (deeper color sense, perfect pitch), not notice these things. Unless a Third Ideal Radiant holding max Stormlight isn't as Invested as the Second Heightening? Seems impossible!

Or maybe there is a difference between "holding" Investiture like Stormlight, which is temporary and leaks away; having it "on tap" like in a metalmind; or "streaming" it like burning metal with Allomancy, versus "having" it the way Breath sticks to one's soul?

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think anyone's brought up that we know now that Spren have subspecies/geographic variations. I found it absolutely fascinating that Larkins need a bond with an Amian Mandra/Luckspren specifically. 

6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.