Popular Post Karger Posted November 6, 2020 Popular Post Report Share Posted November 6, 2020 OK so tidbits I picked up so far. Sleepless The Sleepless are few in number and seem to age and reproduce slowly. Their reproduction method apparently happens when one swarm splits off another grouping. This particular group of sleepless numbers only 24. It is unclear how many more there are on Roshar but no more are known. They have spied on and are worried about our radiants. Also apparenty the one Lift met is something of a maverick. We don't really know why but apparently they think Dalinar making the right choices is more dangerous then playing into the enemy's plans(I no idea why). Hoid warned the horneaters two generations ago that they could not fight the sleepless. Fabrails Huio is a genius and he invented the aluminum method that the Azish take credit for. It seems that it works by making it so that only some motions matter circular motion = back and forth as only lateral movement matters. I am really interested for Rysn to star Prof Xing around on a floating chair. Dawnshard Aimia's undersea caverns contain a DAWNSHARD that the sleepless are guarding. There are apparently four and they were used to shatter adonalsium. Sharders speculate that each made four of the four shads. Rysn has the one that makes things improve, change, grow and possibly learn(Endowment, Ruin, Cultivation, Wisdom?). According to Cord it came through Cultivation's perpendicularity. Hoid was effected by (another?) Dawnshard that turned him vegan under principles similar to savantism. Horneaters The Horneaters are awesome. More importantly the Horneaters have a sacred duty to control access to the perpendicularity which explains a little about RoW Spoiler the GB wanting to avoid them Perhaps the Horneaters were given sanctuary in exchange for this duty? I also wonder how old they are as a people. Did a group of singers do this ahead of time? Maybe they interbred with the humans specifically so that they could stick around? They apparently have a whole group of people who work in diplomacy/worship of the spren. Rock's enhanced strength comes from Mandras or luckspren. We still don't know what kind of spren they are but they apparently guard wealth so maybe prosperityspren? The Lopen Lopen and Huio leveled up! We got Lopen's third ideal. An interesting twist about self knowledge. Larkin Ancient Guardians, Larkin or Lanceryn as they originally were called were tasked perhaps even created to guard the dawnshard. They bond a particular kind of luckspen only found on Aimia. Eight soulcasters were found on Aimia. They were offerings to the larkin. It is unclear why they would want any. The sleepless managed to interbreed with the Larkin and took over their task of gaurding. Apparently Chiri-Chiri will in fact grow big enough to ride(can't wait). They are also a sapient species. I wonder what other abilities they might have? The Reshi The Reshi King Rysn met seems to have transitioned as of becoming a Dustbringer! The Reshi greatshells can communicate intelligent and important information? They also come to agreements about how to act? They have a "government" and uphold ideologies and causes? What else have we learned? 27 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyJim Posted November 6, 2020 Report Share Posted November 6, 2020 The Reishi King is a new Dustbringer, and possibly allied more closely to Dalinar than Taravangian and the other Dustbringers. Also, in Lopen's conversation is seems like the bond with the Ashspren caused his biological sex to transition to male. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsecaller_17.5 Posted November 6, 2020 Report Share Posted November 6, 2020 Just now, LuckyJim said: Also, in Lopen's conversation is seems like the bond with the Ashspren caused his biological sex to transition to male. Great catch, I didn't pick up on that. Seems to be in-book confirmation this Quote R'Shara Would Stormlight healing, Progression, or Feruchemical gold healing count as some of the ways that a transgender person could change their body to match their identity? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Those would work. In fact, that's kind of the main way that you would make that happen. Injections of Investiture making the body match the Spiritual and Cognitive. Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018) 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted November 6, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 6, 2020 5 minutes ago, LuckyJim said: The Reishi King is a new Dustbringer, and possibly allied more closely to Dalinar than Taravangian and the other Dustbringers. Good Catch! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Child of Hodor Posted November 6, 2020 Report Share Posted November 6, 2020 These 4 Commands are the 4 groupings or categories the 16 Shards fit into. This seems heavily implied by how the 16 are grouped in the mural. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Pagerunner Posted November 6, 2020 Popular Post Report Share Posted November 6, 2020 Well, looks like I’m not getting any sleep tonight. After a mostly forgettable, low-stakes mild adventure/mystery story, the lore got turned up to 1000%. This seems like a good thread to dump my thoughts in. The mural. It’s obviously referencing the Shattering, what with the sixteen pieces; I think it’s also referencing the four Dawnshards here, too. But these existed before the Shattering of Adonalsium (or else they couldn’t be used to Shatter), so I’m guessing the Commands guided the sixteen Intents, four apiece. This Command feels an awful lot like Cultivation and Endowment, making things change and make things better. (And even Ruin, to a degree.) And Adonalsium had some emotions ascribed to him, as well: “Resignation? Confidence? Understanding?” And lastly, I’m not sure that the gold color is entirely for decoration. We’re learning from fabrial science that metals interact with Investiture in quite a few ways we didn’t anticipate; I wonder if the mural wouldn’t have contained the Dawnshard if it had a different metal. (The “red foil” outlines are somewhat suspicious, as well, for the places we’ve seen red Investiture.) Exactly what Dawnshards are and how they work is a bit of a mystery. We know from Brandon’s annotation that Hoid was a Dawnshard; I assume this is in reference to the “first gem” and how it became worthless for his wearing it. His Dawnshard was contained in a topaz, and then Hoid absorbed it. There are an awful lot of similarities to Breath and Awakening. It’s called a “Command,” Rysn has improved perception of color and pitch at the end of the novella. But while she absorbs it, we see sensations of light and warmth… almost like the mystery light Dalinar has seen a few times. The pieces are there, but I'm not quite sure how to put them together. There are some outstanding mysteries about the larkin and the mandras. It’s one thing if they were leading Chiri-Chiri to start a bond… but why did they guide Cord and Rysn? And then the big old skulls that Rysn thought moved to look at her; I’m thinking that there’s something actually moving in there. Rysn thinks that the Dawnshard has no agency of its own (borne out by the heads moved after Rysn took up the Dawnshard), so it must be whatever was guiding the mandras, whatever let out the big roar right before Chiri-Chiri returned. Mama Larkin, or whoever it is. The Dawnshard refers to Chiri-Chiri as a “Guardian of Ancient Sins.” That implies, to me, that the larkin are, an intelligent race who were tasked with this mission as soon as the Dawnshards needed guarding. The Sleepless say they guard it because they have seen the “end of worlds,” (like what was mentioned in the Oathbringer interlude), so are the “Ancient Sins” the Shattering? Or perhaps the destruction of Ashyn and other planets like it (including, potentially, the Sleepless home world)? So when were the Dawnshards put under guard? After the Shattering? After the destruction of Ashyn? After some point during the Desolations? It must have been prior to the Recreance, but that's a very long amount of time. We’ve only found one Dawnshard; where are the other three? In Way of Kings, Honor references “Dawnshards,” plural, so presumably more of them were on Roshar, if not all of them. What is Honor about to suggest that can’t be done without Dawnshards? Splintering a Shard, I’d guess; he was suggesting they kill Odium. Which, in turn, makes me wonder if Odium has a Dawnshard, and has been using it to Splinter. But the Dawnshards were also used to destroy the Tranquiline Halls (by performing a great feat of magic, as suggested by the novella), so how did they get to Ashyn? Or perhaps the Dawnshards a cosmere-wide “plot point,” and Honor was suggesting that the Radiants track one down, himself oblivious to the fact that one was right under his nose on his very own planet? Who are the enemies who could make full use of a Dawnshard? Are they Shards? Are they powerful magic users? I assume you only need to be a magic user, which is why they won’t let Rysn bond a spren. That's what happened on Ashyn; somebody with a Dawnshard went too far and caused some problems. It also makes me wonder about the “one of them will destroy us” line from the Way of Kings back cover, and maybe the enemies they’re worried about are the Radiants themselves. Neither person in on the secret (Rysn, Cord) are Radiants, after all. If Dalinar looks for a Dawnshard to fight Odium, things could go wrong and destroy Roshar. Lastly, the greatest applications of Surgebinding. If Rysn’s Dawnshard is associated with growth, what we could call Cultivation’s Dawnshard, I’ll go out on a limb and suggest that Ishar used Honor’s Dawnshard to create the Radiants. An extremely powerful Surgebinding to set up the Oaths and the bonds and the Surge associations and all that. He may also have used it to bind the Oathpact. I go a little further and suggest he still has it, although now he doesn’t have Surgebinding to make use of it. Hmm, one more odd line towards the end of the book. Cord knows stories of this Dawnshard coming through the perpendicularity. That implies that the Dawnshards were being moved around separately through the Cosmere. Who brought this one to Roshar? When? And for what purpose (if there is any beyond just hiding it)? Lots to think about. A pleasant surprise, to be sure; I wasn’t expecting this much of a bomb in this story. 27 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelly Posted November 6, 2020 Report Share Posted November 6, 2020 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Pagerunner said: Well, looks like I’m not getting any sleep tonight. After a mostly forgettable, low-stakes mild adventure/mystery story, the lore got turned up to 1000%. This seems like a good thread to dump my thoughts in. It's 2am and my eyes are so tired but my brain is SO FULL. Brandon you can't do this to us, this was just suppose to be a simple novella. Dalinar's odder visions and whole "other light" thing in Oathbringer has bothered me, I didn't make the connection to what Rysn was experiencing though. Maybe the 3 Bondsmiths are the other Dawnshards? Dawnshard Commands and Awakening Commands is reaaaaaaallly interesting. I'm excited to see future Chiri-chiri in DRAGON MODE. I had some Game of Throne flashbacks with the giant skulls scene though. Hoid once said something roughly like how he began life as words on a page. I wonder now if this was a reference to a Command? Could the writing on the mural have been Yolish? Could the Ghostbloods be after this? The whole "yeah we're after economic trading power" didn't really sit well with me. And also I'm shipping the Lopen/Cord and also Huio/Rushu. Edited November 6, 2020 by Zelly 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+honorblades Posted November 6, 2020 Report Share Posted November 6, 2020 (edited) This is... crazy. I was not expecting to get this level of deep cosmere knowledge from a novella. I suppose it isn’t a surprise, given the amount of cosmere connections we have gotten from the RoW previews - this book is shaping up to be huge for realmatic theory. So, the Dawnshards existed prior to the Shattering, as they appear to be instrumental in that act. As @Pagerunner said, it appears that Hoid may also be a Dawnshard, given the old WoB that part of Hoid’s immortality comes from the remnant of what destroyed Adonalsium. Does this mean that Rysn may also be immortal now? Very interesting that Rysn’s perception of the world post-bonding the Dawnshard appears very similar to someone who is an advanced Heightening - I wonder if this is a sort of Cosmere-wide affect of holding a lot of investiture? Or perhaps this is an affect of holding a lot of this type of investiture? It certainly seems like the Command that Rysn now holds - this would fit with the mural being split into 4 larger chunks. I would guess that this Dawnshard is associated with the same type of investiture that Endowment, and therefore Awakening, is associated with. I wonder if we will see other magic systems that provide similar affects as far as color and sound perception goes. I have been trying to develop a theory on Dalinar’s odd visions for a while now - obviously some of them are sent by the Stormfather, but others appear to be separate. Particularly the ones that feature a golden light. This appears very similar to the light that Rysn experiences. I would hazard to guess that Dalinar is somehow bonding another Dawnshard, though the mechanics of this I’m sure will not be clear to us for some time. The most confusing part of this for me by far is Honor’s lamentation that humanity has apparently “lost” the Dawnshards. He specifically expresses to Dalinar his despair at humanity’s chances against Odium without them. But, clearly, there was a Dawnshard in Aimia this whole time. How do we square these two facts? Was Honor somehow not aware of this Dawnshard? Was it moved to Aimia by the Sleepless sometime after Honor’s death? It does not seem to make sense at this point, and I am desperate to know more. Man, I know RoW is only a few weeks away at this point but it can’t come soon enough! Hopefully some of this gets cleared up. Edited November 6, 2020 by lightweaver spy 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuram Posted November 6, 2020 Report Share Posted November 6, 2020 What's the GB? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainRyan Posted November 6, 2020 Report Share Posted November 6, 2020 4 minutes ago, Kuram said: What's the GB? Ghostbloods is how I read it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teknopathetic Posted November 6, 2020 Report Share Posted November 6, 2020 (edited) I wonder if Rysn now had some passive benefits of 4 shard investiture? She notices Endiwnment, but I wonder what else might be in there (or maybe all 4 shards in that team can grant that somehow). I am thinking the team is based in the “Accept it Know it CHANGE”, so Endowment - change through gift Cultivation - change through grown Ambition - change through will Maybe Ruin? - Change through time? Dalinar had also seen words that glow and give off light. Is Unite one of the Dawnshards (maybe a splintered one Odium thought he destroyed or Unmade?) Honour Dominion Devotion Preservation? Edited November 6, 2020 by teknopathetic 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teknopathetic Posted November 6, 2020 Report Share Posted November 6, 2020 (edited) 27 minutes ago, lightweaver spy said: The most confusing part of this for me by far is Honor’s lamentation that humanity has apparently “lost” the Dawnshards. He specifically expresses to Dalinar his despair at humanity’s chances against Odium without them. But, clearly, there was a Dawnshard in Aimia this whole time. How do we square these two facts? Was Honor somehow not aware of this Dawnshard? Was it moved to Aimia by the Sleepless sometime after Honor’s death? It does not seem to make sense at this point, and I am desperate to know more. Seems like it was completely hidden. Or Honour lied (shocker!) Edited November 6, 2020 by teknopathetic 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+honorblades Posted November 6, 2020 Report Share Posted November 6, 2020 6 minutes ago, teknopathetic said: Seems like it was completely hidden. Or Honour lied (shocker!) I feel like both of these options are equally crazy to me... can the shard of Honor even lie?! Ugh. I can’t wait for RoW to come along and break my brain even more 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teknopathetic Posted November 6, 2020 Report Share Posted November 6, 2020 Just now, lightweaver spy said: I feel like both of these options are equally crazy to me... can the shard of Honor even lie?! Ugh. I can’t wait for RoW to come along and break my brain even more He did die! Maybe he did it for a reason, but that reason ended up shattering him I’ve always believed that honour’s death was a suicide for a glorious reason (or possibly he asked cultivation to lay the final blow). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+honorblades Posted November 6, 2020 Report Share Posted November 6, 2020 6 minutes ago, teknopathetic said: He did die! Maybe he did it for a reason, but that reason ended up shattering him I’ve always believed that honour’s death was a suicide for a glorious reason (or possibly he asked cultivation to lay the final blow). You know, this theory really rules. Few things strike me as more Honorable than a noble sacrifice, and it totally fits into Cultivation’s intent to plan the killing blow a few thousand years in advance 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsdaughter613 Posted November 6, 2020 Report Share Posted November 6, 2020 1 hour ago, teknopathetic said: I wonder if Rysn now had some passive benefits of 4 shard investiture? She notices Endiwnment, but I wonder what else might be in there (or maybe all 4 shards in that team can grant that somehow). I am thinking the team is based in the “Accept it Know it CHANGE”, so Endowment - change through gift Cultivation - change through grown Ambition - change through will Maybe Ruin? - Change through time? Dalinar had also seen words that glow and give off light. Is Unite one of the Dawnshards (maybe a splintered one Odium thought he destroyed or Unmade?) Honour Dominion Devotion Preservation? I agree that Honor and Dominion and Devotion are a group. All involve bonds: Devotion is the bonds of people; Dominion is the bond with Land; and Honor is the bonds of the self. Their Dawnshard would be about bonds. Unity? Preservation does not fit in this group. Endowment, Cultivation, and Ruin all seem to be a group and would be tied to Rysn’s Dawnshard. They’re all change, and I think you’ve got the types right. But I don’t think Ambition goes with them. I hypothesize that Ambition and Autonomy are in a group, and their Dawnshard may be about will. Ambition is the Will to grow. Autonomy is the Will to be free. Will? I further hypothesize that Preservation and Odium are in a group. Both have shown elements of the unchanging void. Odium is the unchanging self. Those who bond to him, who give him their pain, become void and are unable to grow. Preservation is the world frozen. It is the void where time does not move. I suspect both are connected to the idea of eternity. Nothing changes in the void. 15 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reborn radiant Posted November 6, 2020 Report Share Posted November 6, 2020 I definitely wasn't expecting such momentous thing to happen in this novella. It felt mostly unimportant (not in a bad way, it was still a very fun read without the dawnshards. Well paced, good characters and fun story line). But wow, the dawnshard thing made me sit up straight and think harder. My big question though is why there are more dawnshards on roshar than any where else? Hoid probably has one. I think the same dawnshard that rysn bonded to was used to destroy ashyn (Change can lead to destruction real fast). Of the remaining two, I think atleast one more is on roshar - probably used to make the radiant bonds? Kill Honor? - and it seems possible that another dawnshard is behind Dalinar's visions. Gah, I need answers. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashbringer Posted November 6, 2020 Report Share Posted November 6, 2020 1: Not only are Sleepless not native to Roshar, there’s only 24 present on Roshar total. And they can mimic larkin leeching, and apparently have a... lot more hordelings than I thought they did. 2: On Hoid: Spoiler It’s confirmed on Reddit that Hoid is a former Dawnshard, which results in his pacifism. Could still have / have access to Dawnshard #2. I didn’t even catch the grouping... but that makes a lot if sense. I have a theory one of the Dawnshards could be within Scadrial. Leras “buried” something there, and we never got confirmation he was talking about the atium... My guess is there aren’t four world-ending Dawnshards all on Roshar, but I have no idea where #4 could be. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arclomedarian Posted November 6, 2020 Report Share Posted November 6, 2020 In a lot of ways the sleepless reminded me of kandra. The successive generations and acquiring talents. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gderu Posted November 6, 2020 Report Share Posted November 6, 2020 2 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said: I agree that Honor and Dominion and Devotion are a group. All involve bonds: Devotion is the bonds of people; Dominion is the bond with Land; and Honor is the bonds of the self. Their Dawnshard would be about bonds. Unity? Preservation does not fit in this group. Endowment, Cultivation, and Ruin all seem to be a group and would be tied to Rysn’s Dawnshard. They’re all change, and I think you’ve got the types right. But I don’t think Ambition goes with them. I hypothesize that Ambition and Autonomy are in a group, and their Dawnshard may be about will. Ambition is the Will to grow. Autonomy is the Will to be free. Will? I further hypothesize that Preservation and Odium are in a group. Both have shown elements of the unchanging void. Odium is the unchanging self. Those who bond to him, who give him their pain, become void and are unable to grow. Preservation is the world frozen. It is the void where time does not move. I suspect both are connected to the idea of eternity. Nothing changes in the void. I mostly agree with your first two groupings, but I think Odium fits with the third group, not the fourth. Odium represents not just hate and anger, but also love and passion. I also think the name of the group should be changed from Will to Motivation. Each of the shards in it represent a reason of motivation. Strong feeling, ambition, and autonomy is something to fight for. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teknopathetic Posted November 6, 2020 Report Share Posted November 6, 2020 (edited) I also think Nohadon held UNiTE as he seems to be lingering in a strange way. It makes sense that there are two Dawnshards on the Roshar system and Honour talks about the Dawnshard in a plural, and Meleeshi used a Dawnshard known to bind anything (CHANGE does not seem to be the same as BIND/UNITE). Edited November 6, 2020 by teknopathetic 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Criggleworth Posted November 6, 2020 Report Share Posted November 6, 2020 It's small compared to, ya know, the whole Dawnshards and shattering of Adonalsium. But, we also learned that at least some Horneaters are able to form (probably temporary) bonds with non-Radiant spren. Cord mentions that her dad had the blessings of spren that used to strengthen his arm. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innovation Posted November 6, 2020 Report Share Posted November 6, 2020 (edited) This is somewhat unrelated to Dawnshards, but the Sleepless seem convinced that the Radients will destroy them, especially Dalinar who has made the choice of honor (probably his 3rd oath). Arclo is a rouge Sleepless as the Sleepless council mentioned. As for this Sleepless council, they seem to give authority to age. A Sleepless’s age goes back to time their swarm was “Separated.” Could this be the result of a Dawnshard dividing them? One of the Sleepless mentions that “you were not yet Separated during the scouring.” So he was partially separated, as the Sleepless said “not yet.” (Maybe I’m reading too much into that “yet”). Nikli also notes that “When the swarm that had become Nikli had been Separated...” So all Sleepless go through a kind of Proto-Sleepless phase where they are a swarm but not yet Separated. The oldest Sleepless seem to have authority, but Nikli mentioned that the oldest is the “oldest of the swarms on Roshar.” On Roshar. There might be older swarms out there, especially considering that the Sleepless aren’t native to Roshar. Only twenty Sleepless accept the rule of the first swarm. Why not all? Edited November 6, 2020 by Innovation 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsdaughter613 Posted November 6, 2020 Report Share Posted November 6, 2020 2 hours ago, Gderu said: I mostly agree with your first two groupings, but I think Odium fits with the third group, not the fourth. Odium represents not just hate and anger, but also love and passion. I also think the name of the group should be changed from Will to Motivation. Each of the shards in it represent a reason of motivation. Strong feeling, ambition, and autonomy is something to fight for. I can definitely see that. The thing is, Odium is consistently associated with the void. And when people give him their pain, they stop feeling. I think we need to know more about Odium before we can classify him, honestly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuram Posted November 6, 2020 Report Share Posted November 6, 2020 15 minutes ago, Innovation said: Could this be the result of a Dawnshard dividing them? I think not. In one of the annotations on reddit he mentions that it would be difficult for a sleepless to independently control two "bodies" and that it would run the risk of creating a new swarm instead. Based on that, I believe that a sleepless can apply themselves and separate a part of his swarm into a new sleepless entity. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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