Karger

What we learned [Dawnshard]

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38 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Survive is considered because of how Kell describes hearing the word in the Pits.

But that was just Leras wasnt it?

if you read secret history, theres another time Leras directly tells kelsier to “SURVIVE”

and Kelsier(ascended as preservation) tells spook to “SURVIVE”

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1 minute ago, Eternal Khol said:

But that was just Leras wasnt it?

if you read secret history, theres another time Leras directly tells kelsier to “SURVIVE”

and Kelsier(ascended as preservation) tells spook to “SURVIVE”

We’re supposed to think so, but it doesn’t quite add up.  

First: why that word? The first time it had no real meaning to Kell.

Two: the placement is odd, because it was right by Ruin’s Perpendicularity.

Three: Preservation can’t talk to people, especially people who aren’t really Connected to him.

Four: if Leras could just snap someone, why did he need Elend to swallow Lerasium?

The last two being the biggest problems.

Something weird happened at the Pits. What exactly that was is... unclear. Maybe it was Preservation’s voice. But it might not have been. Kell thinks it was, but Kell could very easily be wrong.

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19 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

We’re supposed to think so, but it doesn’t quite add up.  

First: why that word? The first time it had no real meaning to Kell.

Two: the placement is odd, because it was right by Ruin’s Perpendicularity.

Three: Preservation can’t talk to people, especially people who aren’t really Connected to him.

Four: if Leras could just snap someone, why did he need Elend to swallow Lerasium?

The last two being the biggest problems.

Something weird happened at the Pits. What exactly that was is... unclear. Maybe it was Preservation’s voice. But it might not have been. Kell thinks it was, but Kell could very easily be wrong.

I like your points a lot.

but i just looked and Leras even says it was him “And remember … remember what I told you, so long ago.… Do what I cannot, Kelsier.… SURVIVE.”


1. There doesn't have to be any peronal meaning, to tell someone close to death, to “survive”

3. with kelsier so beaten and broken, preservation mustve been able to get a single Command(mind the pun XD) through

4. Leras didnt snap Kelsier. The trauma of watching his wife get beaten to death is what snapped him. That and probably the pain of all the cuts on his arms from searching for Atium.


I just kinda planted myself on the “it not being a dawnshard” side, but the more i think about it, the more i like it. Its simple, yet clear and powerful, with a clear meaning.

Edited by Eternal Khol
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3 hours ago, Eternal Khol said:

I like your points a lot.

but i just looked and Leras even says it was him “And remember … remember what I told you, so long ago.… Do what I cannot, Kelsier.… SURVIVE.”


1. There doesn't have to be any peronal meaning, to tell someone close to death, to “survive”

3. with kelsier so beaten and broken, preservation mustve been able to get a single Command(mind the pun XD) through

4. Leras didnt snap Kelsier. The trauma of watching his wife get beaten to death is what snapped him. That and probably the pain of all the cuts on his arms from searching for Atium.


I just kinda planted myself on the “it not being a dawnshard” side, but the more i think about it, the more i like it. Its simple, yet clear and powerful, with a clear meaning.

I didn’t say it was a Dawnshard, just that something was odd. Leras should not have been able to talk to Kell.

I do think there is an implication that something gave Kell an extra push to finally be able to snap. I don’t think we know of anyone else who snapped in their mid-thirties after living a life like Kell’s.

I think most of us just found Kell’s description of the event very reminiscent so took the word. Exist, continue, etc., could work too. Survive just has a nice ring - and a nice history - to it.

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4 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:
8 hours ago, Eternal Khol said:

 

I didn’t say it was a Dawnshard, just that something was odd. Leras should not have been able to talk to Kell.

Sorry for assuming that you were talking about a Dawnshard.... in the Dawnshard forum... in a Dawnshard discussion topic

 

Edited by Eternal Khol
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Something else I don't think I've seen mentioned that this book confirmed for me and that I'd really like an answer to after noticing it in Oathbringer. (Please point me in the direction of a WOB if one exists) - Why is Rua nonverbal? No other Radiant spren that we've seen is completely nonverbal, even ones in early stages of bonding.  Clearly Lopen can "interpret" or understand what he's "saying" anyway, but we don't have any direct quotes or speech from him. 

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Timbre is nonverbal! Mostly just pulses to rhythms and Venli gets it.

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12 minutes ago, Shlee said:

Why is Rua nonverbal? No other Radiant spren that we've seen is completely nonverbal, even ones in early stages of bonding.  Clearly Lopen can "interpret" or understand what he's "saying" anyway, but we don't have any direct quotes or speech from him. 

I wondered about this a lot.  It might by that Rua is mute or the spren equivalent although I personally think it has to do with the nature of her bond with Lopen.  Kaladin is and Syl are both educated articulate and prefer language.  Rua and I suppose Timbre do not.

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I'm an idiot, I'd completely forgotten that Timbre also doesn't speak. Still, I'm very curious what the mechanics of this would be, as there doesn't seem to be any reason for them NOT to speak. It would make more sense to me if say, ALL Willshaper spren were nonverbal (which, maybe they are, but that's clearly not the case for honorspren). Just one of those little things that seems out of place to me and I'm sure there's a reason for it and I want to know what it is!

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On 06/11/2020 at 7:37 AM, teknopathetic said:

Seems like it was completely hidden. Or Honour lied (shocker!) 

The make up of the mural could have been such that a Shard couldn't perceive it, like the inscriptions in metal in Mistborn.

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9 hours ago, Eternal Khol said:

Sorry for assuming that you were talking about a Dawnshard.... in the Dawnshard forum... in a Dawnshard discussion topic

 

I was talking about why a lot of people jumped on Survive as a possible Dawnshard command. It’s because we’ve seen that command before, and there was a similar description regarding how it felt when given. That doesn’t mean that particular command came from a Dawnshard.

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What about the musical tone of the captain’s voice? World hopper?

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On 06/11/2020 at 11:15 PM, Nebelskind said:
On 06/11/2020 at 3:35 PM, teknopathetic said:

Dalinar had also seen words that glow and give off light. Is Unite one of the Dawnshards (maybe a splintered one Odium thought he destroyed or Unmade?) 

This would make the “we killed you!” line make a lot more sense to me. Adonalsium is dead, but Odium sees its/his Command being expressed in Dalinar. 
 

of course, I feel like Odium should have known about Dawnshards, but I still like the idea

This line in a WOB really hits different, when considering what we know about Dawnshards now (highlighted to show referened line)
 

Quote

Questioner

Dalinar Ascends, right? Like, right then, there.

Brandon Sanderson

I have RAFO'd that. Whether he is Ascending or not is a RAFO.

Questioner

Okay, because I know he kind of mentions from that, I don't know how to say his name but the older guy who has the Diagram--

Brandon Sanderson

Taravangian, yeah. Whether that deserves to be a capital "A" or not is a matter of argument. It can be disputed.

Questioner

I guess my main question would just be Dalinar's now able to pull Stormlight and give it to people now.

Brandon Sanderson

He definitely can. That is a Bondsmith power, so.

Questioner

That is a Bondsmith power, okay.

Brandon Sanderson

That is specifically a Bondsmith power.

Questioner

Because my roommate was saying well, the Stormfather was surprised he could do that or was the Stormfather surprised that he was able to bridge--

Brandon Sanderson

He was surprised by what was happening to Dalinar as a whole.

Questioner

Oh okay, that's what I thought because I was like, because I felt like the Stormlight, that power would be a Bondsmith power.

Brandon Sanderson

Let's say that the Stormfather and Odium were seeing something in Dalinar that, perhaps, the average person watching even who is knowledgeable about Surges would not completely understand... But he will be able to use that power and Bondsmiths in the past have used that same power.

Footnote: Brandon clarified that he might have been unintentionally misleading in his answers to this question during his Stormlight 4 Update 1.
Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

At first I thought it was something that was related to Shards and him possibly picking up a Splinter of Honor, because we are obviously more knowledgeable about stuff than the average observer, who is knowledgeable about Surges, is. But then, what if this isn't specifically Rosharan Surges Brandon is referencing here, but he was instead using it as a stand-in for all magic systems? We've had him confirm that 'Surges' can be used as such in another, very recent WOB as well:

Quote

DracostarA

When the Sleepless refer to 'Surgebinding' with the Dawnshards do they mean it specifically in the Rosharan sense, or just because that is the word Roshar has for magic.

I.e. if this occurred on Scadrial would they still call it 'Surgebinding' or something else?

Brandon Sanderson

Surgebinding is kind of a catch-all for cosmere magic here, as you're assuming. Literally binding (using) surges (a word for what we would call types of magic.)

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020)

I feel like, using some of the new facts we discover such as this, we can find more meaning in statements previously made that we maybe couldn't fully interpret.

At the time of the Stormfather and Odium seeing more than the average bystander with decent knowledge of Surges, we might have been those average observers he was referencing, which then raises the question of: what does the Stormfather know about the Dawnshards?

Edited by Realmatic Shadow
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7 hours ago, ftl said:

Timbre is nonverbal! Mostly just pulses to rhythms and Venli gets it.

And Lopen, being Herdazian, has Singer ancestry. So the Rua/Lopen non-verbal  interactions fit. 

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Remember at the end of Oathbringer, the singers/fused were searching for something in the walls?  They were searching for any hidden Dawnshard Commands.

What about the other photo that no one could figure out from Shallan's discoveries at the start of OB?

Quote

A solitary figure hovering above the ground before a large blue disc, arms stretched to the side, as if to embrace it.

PS - doesn't it all sound like Dawnshard is like a nuclear button?

Edited by Wax
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12 minutes ago, Wax said:

Remember at the end of Oathbringer, the singers/fused were searching for something in the walls?  They were searching for any hidden Dawnshard Commands.

WoB is they were looking for Elhokar’s spren which Hoid found and bonded in the epilogue

 

12 minutes ago, Wax said:

What about the other photo that no one could figure out from Shallan's discoveries at the start of OB?

Thats a perpendicularity. Also confirmed in WoB

Edited by Eternal Khol
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8 minutes ago, Wax said:

Remember at the end of Oathbringer, the singers/fused were searching for something in the walls?  They were searching for any hidden Dawnshard Commands.

No they were looking for Elhokar's cryptic.  This was confirmed.

Quote

R'Shara

The Fused were looking for something at the palace at Kholinar at the end. Were they looking for Hoid's Cryptic?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes they were. Good question! Did people think they were looking for the black gemstone? That would be the other big guess. But they were looking for the Cryptic.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

 

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Time for a blast from the past. We're going to go to a time before the 17th Shard, to the old Time Waster's guide forum. To some threads of people talking about Liar of Partinel preview chapters.

 

Peter Ahlstrom said on March 11-13, 2009:

Quote

Dragonsteel Prime had two people with shards working together, and at least one shard working against them.

[Source]

One of the shards in Dragonsteel Prime wasn't connected to anyone at first and later became connected to the main character. I imagine Brandon will have similar shards in the future.

[Source]

I mean some of the shards are not necessarily attached to a person/godlike personality but are attached to objects. If a person touches the object, they can use its power. If they are associated with the object long enough, the shard can transfer its attachment to that person instead of the object and they can gain its power permanently.

[Source]

Tage, Brandon's brother, said on July 09, 2009:

Quote

Ok, I don't feel bad saying this now, since Brandon basically spilled the beans, but yes, the Liar of Partinel (Midius? It's been a while) is Hoid. He uses the name in honor of his master. He is a viewpoint character in both of the Dragonsteel books that have been written, and I imagine will be for the whole series.

For those who've read the original Dragonsteel, mega-hint-spoiler-thing: for Hoid to appear in multiple stories in multiple worlds, it *would* help a great deal to be immortal.

I have unconfirmed theories on how he travels from world to world. "Hoid" helps a young man in Dragonsteel learn about his own shard, and that young man's shard would be very conducive to FTL travel. At this point, I'm just speculating with the rest of you though.

[Source]

Peter said on August 11, 2009:

Quote

Hey all, here's the official word from the Brandon Sanderson camp:

The information that Tage revealed a couple pages above should not be taken as canon. Tage is in a position to know more than other people here, but he's still speculatively making some connections that don't quite tell the actual story. Specifically, Hoid's presence in the oldest Dragonsteel book should be considered unconfirmed.

Both Dragonsteel books are non-canon until something gets published, and no one except Brandon has even read the end of LIAR OF PARTINEL—Brandon stopped giving it to the writing group a couple years ago at about the three-quarter mark. While aspects of both books should get published eventually it will be in a markedly different form—which should be very obvious to people who have read the oldest Dragonsteel book once WAY OF KINGS comes out.

[Source]

 

Since the info was explicitly stated as "not canon," I didn't add these to Arcanum when I was doing my big TWG review. But I kind of filed it away in the back of my mind (and posted about it on my blog, of course).

With the big revelations over this past week about Hoid and others in Dragonsteel being Dawnshards, and with the other WoB a few months back that those who were planning to Shatter Adonalsium were "demigods" at that iteration in the cosmere's development, I think I'm starting to see what everyone was actually talking about way back when.

  • First, there were the Dawnshards, Hoid and his young friend (who I presume would be Jerick, the POV from the Bridge Four sequence on Brandon's website). They absorbed their magic abilities from objects like the mural; the Topaz for Hoid.
  • Second, there were the demigods. (So what Peter saw in opposition weren't two Shards against one; it was two Dawnshards against one demigod).
  • Third, the series would have eventually gone on to Shatter Adonalsium and give the Shards as we know them.

But back when the basic terminology of Shards and Adonalsium was all first coming out, those who had read Dragonsteel misinterpreted some of the magical phenomena of the book along these lines.

 

So, yeah. Peter and Tage leaked info about the Dawnshards over ten years ago 2009. Crazy how this works, sometimes.

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Wait this might seem elementary but can sleepless distribute their own hordelings over multiple planets? Seems like a good self preservation strategy if they can but seems absolutely insane.

 

Also it's interesting how Huio talked about expected populations of the silver kingdoms- up until the 18th century, European intellectuals were certain the total population of the world had been declining since Roman times, and Voltaire even said that he expected earth to be completely empty of human life in 1000 years if the decline isn't halted. It makes a lot of sense that on Roshar as well they also believe that the human population of the globe has been declining since the recreance or since the silver kingdoms fell. 

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On 11/6/2020 at 4:47 PM, Child of Hodor said:
On 11/6/2020 at 4:07 PM, Use the Falchion said:

@teknopathetic So maybe it was originally held by Ishar (who used either that or the Change Dawnshard to set up the Knights Radiant and bind them to the Oaths), then Nohadon, then at some point Melishi, and - if my theory is correct - now Dalinar?

Yep, we have the Ch. 36 WoK epigraph mentioning the Dawnshard known to bind all creatures voidish or mortal. Unite, Bind, Connect it's a word like that. I agree Dalinar must be tied into a Dawnshard in some way, but not actually one in the straightforward sense. Much like he is kind of Honor enough to briefly form the perpendicularity, but he isn't actually a Shard vessel fulltime. 

We know that Honor mentions that the Dawnshards would help but that they were "lost". I am thinking less that Honor did not know where they may be, but that they were lost to the inhabitants. 

So from what we assume or know the dawnshards - "commands" can be taken up by a person, or in an object? 
I think then that the "unite" dawnshard pertaining to Dalinar there are a few possibilities. 
First that the sword Oathbringer holds the Dawnshard for Unite. 
Second and I think more possible is that Honor before he died gave the command, Dawnshard to the Stormfather. 
We know from the Stormfather that he was changed to something that was more than just a storm, The visions to Unite he was commanded to give. 
Or maybe, the Storm has always been the Dawnshard, he must continue, there is something of a command in how he explains his existence and inability to not "stop" the storms, that his very existence connects the nations to stormlight. 

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Alright....tin hat theory time everybody. Apologies in advance but...this is just so exciting.

So, background: Dalinar's flashbacks were first meant for Book 5, not Book 3. We were supposed to know what Dawnshards are right now before Book 4 but have been shown 2 (kind of) to this point: Hoid (who used to be a Dawnshard) and Dalinar (currently is one without knowing fully yet). Just like one can be a vessel for the Shard, or Intent, one can be a vessel for the Dawnshard (as has been shown twice now). RoW spoiler below from Part 1...

Spoiler

I think the conversation Kaladin had with Vasher during his fight at Urithiru takes on a WHOLE new light now.

Are you ready for a ride in my crazy mind? Here we do down the rabbit hole...

There are 4 Commands (Authority) aka Dawnshards: Unity, Change, and 2 others (I'm not certain on these yet. Possibly Destroy (and Nightblood is the vessel/Dawnshard? More on this below).

These 4 Commands/Dawnshards can be accessed by 4 Intents (Power/Shards) each (knowledge via the mural).
Unity→Honor (X), Dominion (X), Devotion (X), & ?
Change→Endowment, Cultivation, Ruin, & ?
Destroy?→Ambition (X), Autonomy, Odium, & ?
_____→Preservation, (Wisdom, the one that wants to hide and survive), ? & ?

Two of these are, for sure, on Roshar. My guess is another is on Scadrial. The fourth is hiding right under our noses.

Keep in mind that Preservation & Ruin are now Harmony. Possible other names for Shards are Ingenuity (fourth group) or Prudence (also fourth group).

First, UNITY.
I agree with this theory from @robardin:
Quote

I just thought of something. Cultivation said to herself as she considered what she did to Dalinar: "IN DOING THIS, I PROVIDE FOR HIM A WEAPON. DANGEROUS, VERY DANGEROUS."

She then describes the boon and the cost as "WHAT I TAKE FROM YOU WILL GROW BACK EVENTUALLY. THIS IS PART OF THE COST. IT WILL DO ME WELL TO HAVE A PART OF YOU, EVEN IF YOU ULTIMATELY BECOME HIS."

Dalinar is later confused when hiis memories of Evi begin to return, as no other account of the Old Magic has either the boon or bane be anything other than permanent.

So either it's different when Cultivation Herself does it... Or she had more going on in mind? The returning memories were part of the cost. Not a wearing off of a boon, where the boon isn't supposed to be temporary.

And even if you thought of it as the return of pledged collateral on the interest paid to get something for a while, like at a pawnshop - if giving up the memories formed the collateral, that yielding can't also be the boon itself, right?

And what is this "very dangerous weapon" she is potentially providing for Odium? Giving him years to recover from the haunted memories and making him stronger? But Odium was counting on the pain from those memories returning to cause him to fall - as if their return were not something of Cultivation's doing, but his. (He knows Dalinar met with Cultivation and lost his memories, after all.)

... Or was she taking his memories temporarily, knowing they'd return, while also making Dalinar a Dawnshard?! (And here I'd thought the Nightwatcher offering him Nightblood for a boon was astounding!) That's the permanent boon.

And the permanent cost? She evidently still has "a part of Dalinar", something she'd have retained even if he'd fallen to Odium despite her pruning, and would "do her well" in that eventuality.

Dalinar was freaking given the Dawnshard Unity from Cultivation. That explains Odium running away with his tail between his legs because Dalinar has the Intent (Bondsmith) AND the Command (Unity). That makes him ridiculously more powerful than he realizes. Odium sees Intent (Honor) with the Command (Unity) and that's freaking terrifying.

Note: I think this Dawnshard is what Ishar used as the OG Bondsmith to create the Knights Radiant and the Oathpact. It was taken away from him some time after that.

Next, CHANGE.
Kinda obvious now that we've read Dawnshard. Keep in mind, the reason the Sleepless commanded Rysnnot to bond with a spren is because if she gets access to the Power (Intent) AND the authority that she already holds, she becomes exponentially more powerful.

Last, DESTROY.
So this one's going on a limb but here's my guess.
Nightblood is the vessel for the Command / Dawnshard Destroy. This makes a whole lot of sense. What better way to hide the Command / Dawnshard from someone with Intent or prevent misuse of it than a vessel that would literally kill the holder if it was evil. Endowment helped significantly in this, I'm sure. If I'm right, that makes 3 (!) Dawnshards on Roshar. All 3 of which hiding.

TIN HAT TIME
 
Odium went after Ambition for obvious reasons. His next plan of attack though? Devotion & Dominion and then Honor. Why? Because they would be the other Shards that could access the Dawnshard of Unity. THAT'S why he went after who he did. Odium came to Roshar ultimately seeking the Dawnshard Unity, not just Honor or Culitvation. Better yet, Odium, wanted to become Conquest. That’s his shtick. He wanted to find the Dawnshard, absorb Honor, and freaking wreck people across the Cosmere. Soaking the Shards all up one by one.
 
So what happens in Book 5? Dalinar learns he is a Dawnshard somehow from Rysn. Dalinar realizes what Unity truly is. Not the Shard, the Command. He then uses that Command to Unite Honour back again, absorb it, and absorb Odium becoming Conquest. Guess where he goes during the break between 5 book arcs? The shards of Dominion & Devotion. Can you say power up?

But wait, there's more!

If Dalinar only had the four intents from Unity, he would truly become Unity. But problem! He's got Odium. And that means...
 
Dalinar is the freaking antagonist of the last five and holy crap is he Uber powerful compared to simple little Odium. (Navani will be our Bondsmith for the SA pending awakening Sibling??)

Either that or Conquest takes Radiants for Intergalactic Warfare, staying true to his name & just uniting like crazy.

Unity could then combine the Sleepless making one super scary Sleepless or worse yet...destroy the whole of Roshar / orders of the Knights Radiant as Conquest and build a new Oathpact...one not bound to just Roshar but the whole of Cosmere.
Edited by Dresden_Stormblessed
Forgot the sleepless & the WoK blurb...
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Quote

Better yet, Odium, wanted to become Conquest. That’s his shtick. He wanted to find the Dawnshard, absorb Honor, and freaking wreck people across the Cosmere. Soaking the Shards all up one by one.

I disagree with this greatly. Odium specifically didn't absorb Ambition, Devotion, or Dominion because he DOESN'T want to change his intent. Changing his intent at all completely goes against his plans.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Odium wants to be the only Shard. Odium could pick up other Shards if he wants to, but, he doesn't want to. His Shard is a good match for his personality and he doesn't want to be influenced by another Shard.

Alloy of Law 17th Shard Q&A (Nov. 5, 2011)

 

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On 10/11/2020 at 10:08 AM, Wax said:

What about the musical tone of the captain’s voice? World hopper?

I don't think so, to me it was just another pointer, along with colours appearing more vivid, towards Rysn attaining a heightening via the Dawnshard.

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On 11/6/2020 at 2:08 AM, Zelly said:

Hoid once said something roughly like how he began life as words on a page.  I wonder now if this was a reference to a Command?

 

Is also reminds me strongly of (Warbreaker):

Spoiler
Spoiler

The Returned having no memories of who they were before.

 

 

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On 11/6/2020 at 5:21 AM, Karger said:

Fabrails

  • Huio is a genius and he invented the aluminum method that the Azish take credit for.  It seems that it works by making it so that only some motions matter circular motion = back and forth as only lateral movement matters.  I am really interested for Rysn to star Prof Xing around on a floating chair.

 

The Azish taking credit was removed in the published novel

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